CHICAGO (IL)
Slate [New York NY]
May 31, 2023
By Robert Herguth and Mary Harris
[Transcript of an interview with Robert Herguth of the Chicago Sun-Times; also available as a podcast.]
Speaker B: Hey, everyone, quick heads up for me that we are talking about sex abuse in the Catholic Church in this episode.
Speaker B: Take care of yourself while you listen.
Speaker B: Last week, the Attorney General of Illinois released a 696 page report, and then he stepped in front of reporters to talk about it.
Speaker C: Good morning.
Speaker B: Were you watching that press conference?
Speaker A: Yeah, I was there.
Speaker B: Robert Herguth is a reporter at the Sun Times, and he was at this presser because he had questions for the AG.
Speaker B: This report dealt with a subject robert’s become an expert in the Catholic Church.
Speaker B: The Attorney General found evidence that nearly 2000 people were abused by clergy over the last seven decades.
Speaker C: Now, before we dive into the heart of this report, I believe it’s important that I share my personal history with the Catholic Church.
Speaker B: I was struck by how emotional the press conference seemed to be.
Speaker C: My mother was a faithful, practicing Catholic for the entirety of her life, praying every night and regularly attending church.
Speaker B: The Attorney General, Kwame Roll, he almost seemed like he was about to cry at the beginning of the press conference.
Speaker B: What did you make of that?
Speaker A: I’m not sure whether that’s the case, but I did notice that that he seemed to get emotional.
Speaker A: I mean, he was raised Catholic.
Speaker A: He talked about his mother being Catholic.
Speaker A: And he said he mentions that to disabuse any notion that he’s somehow ought to get the Catholic Church.
Speaker A: I do these stories, and I hear from a lot of victims, survivors who say, thank you, but I also hear from people who say, how dare you pick on Mother Church?
Speaker A: And so I think he wanted to lay down a marker and say, that’s not what this is about.
Speaker B: Nevertheless, the AG named 451 clergy members as abusers.
Speaker B: Robert says the real number is probably much higher.
Speaker B: He also says it’s important to be specific about what these accusations mean.
Speaker A: We use words like child molesting, and that’s accurate, but it doesn’t do justice to what this is about.
Speaker A: It’s about little kids being raped by older men violently and repeatedly.
Speaker A: I mean, this is profound and horrific.
Speaker A: And so I don’t know how anybody who really understands what this is about couldn’t get emotional.
Speaker B: Do you think about why it took so long for a report like this one to come out?
Speaker A: The better question is, why did this report have to come out?
Speaker A: The Church could have done this.
Speaker A: They could have released this.
Speaker A: It could have come clean 20 years ago, ten years ago, five years ago.
Speaker B: You sound so disappointed.
Speaker A: This is about children, right?
Speaker A: It’s a huge failure today on the show.
Speaker B: This report in Illinois is just the latest sign of disorder in the Catholic Church.
Speaker B: Why even this investigation is incomplete.
Speaker B: I’m Mary Harris.
Speaker B: You’re listening to What Next.
Speaker B: Stick around.
Speaker B: Robert Hergith says part of the reason last week’s report into abuse in Illinois was such a big deal is that in Illinois, Catholicism is a big deal.
Speaker B: Robert himself is Catholic.
Speaker B: Lots of people in his hometown of Chicago are.
Speaker B: And the Church’s importance, he says it goes beyond faith.
Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard it.
Speaker A: Chicago called a Catholic city, which is not literally true, but Catholicism in Chicago, just like across the country in the aggregate, is the largest single faith group.
Speaker A: And the big immigrant cities of old chicago, New York, Boston, Philly, La.
Speaker A: Those are fairly Catholic.
Speaker A: A lot of times in certain segments of a city, in a neighborhood that’s poor or violent or whatever, there are very few institutions.
Speaker A: Catholic Church, at least in these big cities, oftentimes is one of those.
Speaker A: Very few.
Speaker A: So even when you’re not Catholic, they are presence in these cities.
Speaker A: So there’s a relevance to the Catholic Church plus side and the negative side beyond just the pews.
Speaker B: The report that came out last week has been in the works for five years.
Speaker B: An investigation was first launched back in 2018.
Speaker B: Back then, a report by the Pennsylvania attorney general hinted at problems in Illinois.
Speaker B: At the time, Cardinal Blaise.
Speaker B: Supich of the Archdiocese of Chicago, he made a point to show he was not concerned.
Speaker B: He even went on CNN and assured Chris Cuomo that the attorney general wouldn’t find much.
Speaker D: So I’m confident that we’re in good standing.
Speaker D: We want to make sure that we set an example here, and we do take this matter seriously.
Speaker D: So I’m confident.
Speaker D: Yes.
Speaker A: So you believe that after the Attorney general does her probe, she will find nothing, no cases that were overlooked by your diocese?
Speaker D: I am.
Speaker B: In fact, at the time, the Illinois Catholic Church had public lists of which clergy members were abusing parishioners, and those.
Speaker A: Two lists had about 100 names.
Speaker A: Fast forward to today.
Speaker A: The report that was released showed that there were 451 Catholic clergy and religious brothers credibly accused of child sexual abuse over the last 70 or 80 years.
Speaker B: Did that number surprise you?
Speaker A: Yeah, actually, it did surprise me.
Speaker A: It’s low.
Speaker B: It’s low?
Speaker A: Yeah, I think it’s significantly low.
Speaker B: Robert says the number is still low because of how this information was gathered.
Speaker B: The AG relied on what had been already obtained by the Catholic dioceses themselves.
Speaker B: And that leaves room for error because it doesn’t necessarily account for religious orders that operate within different dioceses.
Speaker A: And so the AG went to the diocese, and the diocese did have some religious order information.
Speaker A: But did they have it all?
Speaker A: Did the diocese have all the religious order misconduct information from all the religious orders in their area?
Speaker A: My answer is I don’t believe so.
Speaker A: And the AG did not go to the religious orders themselves to ask for that information.
Speaker A: So they acknowledge there could be more.
Speaker B: It sounds like you think that was a real miss to take five years and then not do this due diligence of going really to the people on.
Speaker A: The ground well, I mean, let’s put it this way.
Speaker A: It’s a blind spot.
Speaker A: This was a significant report.
Speaker A: I don’t want to take away from that.
Speaker A: It was the most comprehensive thing I’ve seen.
Speaker A: But, I mean, it probably missed a number of people, because if you don’t request it from the individual organizations, the AG only has the information by virtue of the diocese.
Speaker A: The diocese have the religious order information only if the religious orders gave it to them.
Speaker A: We don’t know who gave it to them, and they didn’t.
Speaker A: In fact, I’m told some of them refused.
Speaker B: Yeah, one of these priests, a guy named Thomas Francis Kelly, in this report, they say he abused more than 15 boys from ages eleven to 17, and then he was just moved from parish to parish.
Speaker B: He died in 1990.
Speaker B: So he’s not here to give his side of the story, but it’s so damning to read about the way the Church simply moved him about, rather than removing him, reporting him, doing any of the things you would think the Church should do.
Speaker A: Yes, there definitely was just like, hey, he’s one of us.
Speaker A: Let’s hide him.
Speaker A: I’m not saying with him in particular, but just in general, these guys.
Speaker A: And there also was scholarship at the time or science at the time where it’s like, these guys could be fixed.
Speaker A: Some people believe that.
Speaker A: So let’s send them off the therapy for a year or two, and they say it’s fixed.
Speaker A: The experts say it’s fixed.
Speaker A: Let’s bring them back.
Speaker A: Of course, people know now that’s not how it works.
Speaker A: So was bad science ignorance to the science, but also nefarious malicious intent on many occasions, too?
Speaker B: Was it a twisted attempt to offer a kind of grace to these abusers?
Speaker B: Like, he can change and we can give him a second chance?
Speaker A: Probably.
Speaker A: I mean, Christianity preaches forgiveness, right?
Speaker A: And so these guys are supposed to live that model of Christ, and so therefore, yes, they are often quick to forgive, but there’s a difference between forgiving and being stupid and bringing somebody back into the fold who’s done X, Y, and Z, somebody who’s robbed a bank.
Speaker A: They said they’re sorry.
Speaker A: Do you hire them as a teller?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker B: Now that this report is out, how has the cardinal, Blaine Supich, responded?
Speaker B: He was the guy who said, there’s nothing to see here back in 2018.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker A: Well, he released his own statement where he pushed back hard, which people I’ve talked to described him as tone deaf, and his response was pretty aggressive in terms of pushing back.
Speaker B: How so?
Speaker A: Well, he called some of the report potentially misleading.
Speaker D: The report contains a list of individuals the Attorney General contends have substantiated or credible allegations against them and should be included on our Web list.
Speaker D: However, the list fails to explain the basis by which allegations against these additional individuals were substantiated or deemed credible and by whom.
Speaker A: He also emphasized that the Church has been ahead of the curve on this issue.
Speaker D: We have continued to improve on our initial efforts over three decades by dedicating significant resources to creating best practices for protecting children, promoting healing and preventing the.
Speaker A: Reality is, Triaces of Chicago has been ahead of the curve, and it still failed.
Speaker A: What does that say about the rest of the country?
Speaker B: After the break.
Speaker B: Will this report change anything?
Speaker B: And what does accountability look like for abuse that may have happened decades ago?
Speaker B: This report from last week, it wasn’t associated with any criminal charges.
Speaker B: Not yet, anyway.
Speaker B: And one of the things Cardinal Supich in Chicago wanted to make clear in his response to this investigation is that none of the accused clergy members have any authority in the church anymore.
Speaker B: Robert Hergith he says that’s cold comfort to survivors, and it shouldn’t be much comfort to the rest of us either.
Speaker A: Many are walking the streets.
Speaker A: The guys that are still alive, they were kicked out.
Speaker A: And guess what?
Speaker A: They’re out there living in the community.
Speaker A: But here’s the other thing.
Speaker A: They’re not on a sex offender registry like, maintained by, say, the state police or something, because many of them were never charged, arrested, charged, or convicted of sex crimes.
Speaker A: They were internally, administratively accused, or maybe civilly accused.
Speaker A: Then they’re kicked out or they’re forced out, or they resign or whatever they do.
Speaker A: And now they’re living out there somewhere in the world.
Speaker A: This is a scandal that reverberates.
Speaker B: Why can’t clergy members, former clergy members who’ve been abusive be charged at this point?
Speaker A: Statute of limitations?
Speaker A: That’s a good question.
Speaker A: I mean, other places, other states, other than Illinois, they’ve opened up the book, so to speak, because, again, statute of limitations dictates that if you committed X, Y, and Z, you can only be charged for this length of time before it just sort of goes off into the sunset.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker A: And some states have opened up, like, little windows where people could sue Illinois to open it up.
Speaker A: Civilly would take supposedly an amendment to our Constitution.
Speaker B: This would be a look back law where people would have a year to file a case about being abused.
Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A: Some window to file a case.
Speaker A: So, yeah, it’s possible.
Speaker A: To my knowledge, there’s been no movement, significant movement toward that in Illinois, but other places have done it.
Speaker A: So that’s the issue.
Speaker A: If you’re abused when you’re ten years old, you come forward when you’re 50.
Speaker A: There’s not tons.
Speaker A: You could do something.
Speaker B: I’ve been thinking about a lot, reading about this report into abuse in the Catholic Church is.
Speaker B: What’s the value of an investigation like the one we’ve just seen?
Speaker B: Do you think about that?
Speaker B: Do you wonder about that, too?
Speaker B: What will this do?
Speaker A: What this report, I think, does is it’s cathartic in a way, maybe part of the healing process for some of the victims.
Speaker A: And also, how do you know how big the problem was?
Speaker A: Or maybe even still is if you don’t know the scope of the problem, how can you fix something if you don’t know what’s broken?
Speaker A: And so the report potentially has that aspect to it, that benefit to it.
Speaker A: Also, it puts the names out there and where these predators served.
Speaker A: So it could potentially bird dog more victims out of the woods to come forward, but also, for the public, a more truthful acknowledgment of what transpired.
Speaker B: I guess I don’t go to a prosecutor for catharsis, though it’s not what I think of as their typical role.
Speaker A: Correct.
Speaker A: As I said before, this report shouldn’t have happened.
Speaker A: The Church should have come clean X number of years ago, and they clearly did.
Speaker B: I know that the Catholic Church has been trying to reform itself.
Speaker B: Like, Pope Francis was announcing procedures to investigate senior religious leaders, like confirming that adults can be victims of abuse, seeming to kind of signal that we’re taking allegations of abuse seriously.
Speaker B: But has anyone higher up addressed some of the things you’ve found?
Speaker B: Like the fact that the diocese is one thing, but these individual orders are something else, and the individual orders don’t seem to be accountable in the way you would need them to be.
Speaker A: I’d say a couple of things.
Speaker A: I mean, I’m not an expert in Vatican politics and policies, but I mean, the Pope is the ruler of the land billion Catholics and every priest and nun and sort of falls under his rule.
Speaker A: This could have been addressed by a pope, him or one of his predecessors much differently and much better.
Speaker A: That’s one thing.
Speaker A: The second thing is, in terms of recommendations, kwami Raul’s report actually did have a number of recommendations, one of which was that if religious orders or members of religious orders aren’t coming clean about the abuse within their groups, then maybe the local bishop can strip away their ability to serve in their jurisdiction.
Speaker A: So, I mean, there are things that could have been done to address this.
Speaker A: And it’s interesting that a secular government political leader is forcing that issue as opposed to the Church itself, but it also shows how complicated and large the Church is.
Speaker A: But where there’s a will, there’s a way.
Speaker A: And the fact that we’re here, it suggests there’s not a strong enough will leased by many people.
Speaker B: So if there aren’t any charges here, and if the Church itself doesn’t seem able to hold itself accountable, what does accountability look like?
Speaker B: One idea some have brought up is using racketeering charges against the Church, treating it the same way you might treat organized crime.
Speaker B: Robert Herguth says the Church’s tax status, that could be important too.
Speaker A: The Catholic Church is a charitable organization, and therefore it’s granted tax exempt status by the IRS.
Speaker A: And to have this special, really important status, one of the bases for it is to not commit crime.
Speaker A: So I know that’s been discussed.
Speaker A: Like, at what point is the charitable status of the church in jeopardy, or should it be?
Speaker A: And also, yeah, Racketeering, there has been discussion about whether because, again, the Catholic Church crosses boundaries.
Speaker A: And like, these religious orders, I mean, they’re multiple state, multiple jurisdiction across the globe, and if they’re shifting guys from here to there, across the globe to get them away from a crime, then that becomes a federal crime, potentially.
Speaker A: But is it the individual?
Speaker A: Is it the order, blah, blah, blah?
Speaker A: I don’t know.
Speaker A: It’s a complicated issue, but it is something that’s been discussed.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker B: I’m glad you brought up the developing world and the global reach of the church, because the whole time that the Illinois attorney general has been working on this report, you’ve been doing your own reporting, where part of what you’ve said is that the next big priest sex abuse scandal lurks in the developing world.
Speaker A: Can you explain why Catholicism, while it’s shriveling in the US.
Speaker A: In the Western world, which is becoming more and more secular, it’s exploding across parts of the developing world, parts of Africa, for instance, where there are very few structures in place, let’s say police, government, or even education for that matter.
Speaker A: There’s one religious order based in the Chicago area.
Speaker A: That’s a missionary order, which means that they spread the gospel across the globe or where they think it’s needed a lot of that’s in the developing world.
Speaker A: And a number of their predator members served at various times in those places.
Speaker A: Do they abuse there?
Speaker A: In some cases, yes.
Speaker A: Some cases?
Speaker A: I don’t know.
Speaker A: I think sometimes, just like in this country 20, 30, 40 years ago, people were less likely to report this if you were abused as a kid.
Speaker A: In those places, people are likewise very reluctant because of social structures in place, family dynamics, it’s cultural dynamics, et cetera.
Speaker A: So I think that is unfortunately going to be a huge problem.
Speaker A: It already probably is, yeah.
Speaker B: And the developing world is pretty far removed from the jurisdiction of the AG there in Illinois.
Speaker A: Correct.
Speaker B: So is it really just up to every little local jurisdiction to figure this out?
Speaker A: Yeah, but I think more importantly, it’s up to the church to figure this out since these people work for them and they’re in the business supposedly of good.
Speaker A: So do good.
Speaker B: I wonder how you think about the attention that this report got, because to me, it seemed like it got a few stories over a couple of days, but it didn’t seem to get as much attention as maybe the news about abuse in 2018 did.
Speaker B: Does that matter?
Speaker B: Is that important?
Speaker A: I think people are fatigued.
Speaker A: I mean, again, this verse started emerging in the late 80s, early 90s, but I think people are exhausted by this.
Speaker B: How do you avoid being exhausted by it?
Speaker A: It is exhausting.
Speaker A: I mean, I don’t like writing about this.
Speaker A: It’s not a fun subject.
Speaker A: I think it’s important.
Speaker A: There’s still so many problems and secrecy in Chicago and beyond.
Speaker B: Robert, I’m so grateful for your time and for your reporting.
Speaker B: Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker A: Thanks for having me.
Speaker B: Robert Hergith is an investigative reporter at the Chicago Sun Times.
Speaker B: And that’s our show.
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Speaker B: Thanks for listening.
Speaker B: Talk to you tomorrow.