Boston Globe
April 21, 2006
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/04/21/
edited_transcript_of_cardinal_sean_p_omalleys_qa/
Edited transcript of Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley's question-and-answer session with Globe editors on Thursday.
O'MALLEY: Certainly the consistory celebrated in the Catholic Church was a very significant moment for Catholics, and important moment for the Catholic Church in Boston, the recognition of the importance of this Catholic community. ... In the United States, we're only six percent of the Catholics in the world. The other 94 percent are dispersed through the rest of the globe, and the ministry of the Holy Father is really what keeps us all connected. And the College of Cardinals is at the surface of that ministry, and therefore, for us in Boston included in that, is very significant. And I am quite grateful to The Boston Globe and the local media for making it possible for the community here to be a part of events in Rome, of the wonderful coverage that you gave to the events.
Yesterday, of course, we had a very important event. We had promised transparency, and everyone was anxious to find out exactly what the situation in the church is, and where the pot of gold is buried. And thanks to Jack and so many other ... people who were able to make a presentation that I think answered people's questions and allowed them to understand what our situation is, and also some of our hopes for going forward, and our signs of hope that we're trying to underscore.
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| Cardinal Sean P. O'Malley sat for a wide-ranging interview on Catholic issues yesterday. (Globe Staff Photos / Dina Rudick) |
And once again, we're grateful to the media for allowing us to get the message out. It was important for people to be a part of what we did yesterday, and the local media did a wonderful job, I think, of transmitting what our message was, and helping people to have a greater understanding of what the situation in the church is.
So, with those initial thoughts, any questions?
Q: I'm wondering whether you've considered the possibility, as some other diocese have, of declaring bankruptcy.
O'MALLEY: I think that we are so big and so complex, for us to declare bankruptcy, things would have to be much worse than they are. I don't see that as a present option for our situation....And actually, when the crisis began, at the time Boston was seriously considering bankruptcy, and the Holy See asked us not to go that route. And in retrospect, I think it's probably been the correct decision. And certainly, as I learn more of the complexity of the archdiocese, I think a bankruptcy procedure would be so complicated and so disastrous that we'd be better off to try and muddle through as we are.
Q: One thing I'm still struggling to get my head around is how it can be that after closing all these parishes, the archdiocese is not in better financial shape, which I think is very confusing to a lot of our readers. I realize that the rationale for closing parishes was not exclusively financial, but did closing parishes improve the financial situation of the archdiocese?
O'MALLEY: Oh, certainly. It has helped us, and we have put money into the retirement funds we wouldn't have had. We were able to continue our operating expenses, that the money that we had borrowed from Knights of Columbus has been depleted. If we hadn't had the money from reconfiguration, we might be considering bankruptcy. I don't know, we'd be in much worse shape, obviously. But once again, I think people see these large amounts of money and say, well, this must be enough to solve the problems of the Archdiocese. But unfortunately, it has not.
Q: Given the range of the health of the parishes that remain open, some would seem financially very viable, and others they seem much less viable. Are there other parishes that will be closed?
O'MALLEY: I think sporadically there will be.... There are some parishes that are very small, perhaps that are being staffed by a religious community that is no longer willing to continue to staff it, and the archdiocese certainly wouldn't be in a position, then, to take over those communities. There's a couple of churches where people have been told that when their pastor, who's 86, retires, that they will not get another pastor. So I think there will be some sporadic closings, but the churches are not closed just on the basis of which ones were financially viable and which ones weren't, but rather looking at the pastoral needs and the need to be present all over, and what resources would be available to serve those populations. Obviously, there are always going to be parishes that will need to be subsidized and others that will have an abundance of them, because of the makeup of those parishes.
Q: I live in Presentation Parish in Brighton, about four houses away from the church and about eight houses away from the school.... I'm interested in why parochial education, why the schools are not more of a money maker for the Archdiocese, and why the schools would be closed.
O'MALLEY: Well, would that the schools were a moneymaking proposition.... The school's foundation, I think, is giving like $6 million worth of scholarships to kids, and Bishop Lennon is going to Cleveland, and I was teasing him because they not only have state vouchers for the Catholic schools, they have county vouchers for the Catholic schools. Without the religious sisters and brothers teaching in the schools, the cost of Catholic education has risen considerably, and a lot of that is subsidized by the parish or underwritten by scholarships. But obviously Presentation School was in very, very bad shape. And I think, while they had quite a number of children in the preschool, not counting them, the number in the actual school itself was like 45... Certainly the study that's going on right now ... and the 2010 initiative is going to throw a lot of light on how we might be able to strengthen the school system and use our resources better.
Right now, the Catholic schools are where the old archdiocese was, where they have a Catholic population of large families, concentrated in these neighborhoods. And now a lot of those schools are in competition with each other, trying to draw from the same pool with respect to students. So we need to come up with a strategy and thank goodness we have a very good person in place that is studying there right now.
Q: I was hoping you could speak a little bit to the recent controversy about Catholic Charities and gay adoptions. And it seems that some other diocese are handling this in a different way, or maybe it hasn't affected them directly so far.
O'MALLEY: Well, the activities of the church, particularly all our social services and other activities, need to reflect what the values and the teachings of the church are. And certainly, the institution of marriage is very central in what the church's message is. So, obviously the church imposes a definition of the institution of marriage, and we see that the very best way for children to be raised is in a loving relationship of a married man and woman. ... I think it's sad that here there isn't a greater understanding and respect of the need for a religious group to be consistent in the services that we give and the doctrine that we teach. And because of that, realizing how contentious it would have been to fight this, and there were different paths we could have followed, either legislatively or going to the courts and looking for relief. But we really thought it would only cause greater divisions, more controversy, and in the long run, would only cripple the mission of what we're trying to do. And that's why the decision was made to -- very sadly -- to give up adoptions, which had been -- although of the 200,000 people served by Catholic Charities, a small number, it was the centerpiece of the activities of Catholic Charities, and one of the rationales for Catholic Charities throughout the country, not just here. And it was precisely in order that, as orphaned Catholic children would be placed in Catholic families who would care for them.... I suspect that in many parts of the country there would have been a greater understanding on the part of the government and public and Catholic Charities would be able to continue, but obviously in Massachusetts, that's not the case. So, sadly, we made that decision.
Q: Is the larger case, the bigger message, that if you consider yourself a Catholic, but you disagree on that particular policy, that you should not consider yourself a Catholic?
O'MALLEY: Obviously we know that there are Catholics who have dissenting ideas on church doctrine, and in many ways, it's a great challenge to us to try and to educate and motivate people to understand what the church's teachings are. Our teachings, when they're seen in isolation, are I think difficult for people, but they're part of a whole. They're part of a Catholic ethos, and our desire to be faithful to Christ and to the commandments, to certain core values. And we need to do an awful lot more to help our people to understand what the church's teachings are. I know in the past, we relied a lot on sort of authority. The church says this, and so people have accepted that. And particularly, in today's climate, where the church's teachings are being challenged, one of the things that we must do is to engage more in a dialogue and try to explain to people what our doctrines are.... We're hoping that people will come to understand that the church's teachings are not vindictive or mean-spirited.
Q: My son is chairman of the Catholic Charities board, and he disagrees with the church's teaching. And he's still a chairman of the Catholic Charities board.... If you disagree with the policy, should you take yourself out of the church?
O'MALLEY: Well, I would hope that those who disagree would try to understand more where the church's teachings are coming from, and I know that it's incumbent upon us who are teachers to do a better job of communicating and helping people to see what the church's teachings are, and particularly in this modern time when things change so quickly and where people are exposed to so many different ideas, it's very challenging.
Q: Is there is something in the culture here that you feel responsible for that makes it more difficult to lead the Catholic community?
O'MALLEY: Well, I think it's challenging to teach in this environment, but this is a very important environment for the church to be involved in teaching. Here, we have so many intellectual centers. This is the Athens of the West, and they say that St. Paul's most eloquent sermon was given in Athens, and it's the one that had the least impact of any of his preaching.
But I think that that's a challenge. I did teach at a university, and as I used to say, that never were fiercer wars fought over less turf. And, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think certainly this is -- it's a great challenge for us as Catholics, in an atmosphere where our doctrines are being challenged and questioned. But I think that makes us stronger in responding to those kinds of challenges. Obviously, in a little town in the Midwest where none of these things are even an issue, it's much easy to be a country pastor. But where our people are bumping up against these kinds of questions and are looking for answers and strengthening their faith, I think that's an exciting aspect of being in the church in Massachusetts.
Q: There's been some commentary, and I'm sure you've heard it or absorbed it, about your style, and to what degree are you comfortable meeting with politicians, Catholic or not, and putting forth your message and influencing public debate. And one thing I wondered about your elevation to cardinal is, whether that would be even more of a personal role of yours. Is that how you see it, or do you prefer a different approach?
O'MALLEY: Well, I'm not sure - I'll say my favorite thing is not dealing with the media, with politicians. However, in my many years as a priest and a bishop, the many times I've -- it's necessary and it's part of my new role. And I understand that and I try and interact the best that I can.... I'm not trying to impose our religion on anyone else. But I want to make sure that we get fair hearing from the politicians and the media, when we try to reach out and, when it's appropriate, when the issues involved are the kind of issues that the church needs to weigh in, particularly when there are ethical issues involved. I don't like to say that because someone doesn't come to church that they're no longer a Catholic, let's - the numbers that self-identify as Catholic are very, very large. Many of them do not practice frequently. There are some people that come for the major feast days and for important family celebrations, but typically where you have a very large Catholic population and a percentage of that population are going to be more cultural Catholics and less practicing. But certainly the problems of the last couple of years have had an impact. We've seen some reversal in that in the last year. We hope that, as we approach our 200th anniversary in 2008, when we would like to launch programs of evangelizations, spirituality that would invite people to reconnect with the church, those who have stepped away, particularly those who have stepped away over these very painful issues of the past couple of years. But it certainly is a concern that mass attendance is down. That trend is almost a national trend. When I was kid I think it was like 80 percent of Catholics went to Mass. I think it was true in other denominations too. It may not have been as high. Part of it is the breakdown of family life, and the ability of people to move away from their parents and local congregations, they don't connect in a new place. A lot of studies have been done on what the impact of mobility has on the churchgoing population. Certainly all of these are factors. However, as I say, our hope is that the context of our 200th anniversary as a church as an archdiocese, we'll try to reevangelize the people, we'd like to enliven greater participation in the church.
However, as I say, our hope is that the context of our 200th anniversary as a church as an archdiocese, we'll try to reevangelize the people, we'd like to enliven greater participation in the church.
And one other thing that doesn't enter into statistics, which kind of blows my mind, is a lot of people who are sending their children to religious education are not coming to church.... There are different kinds of participation, and that's one that I find very disturbing, but at least there's that contact, that they want their children to receive the sacraments and be Catechized, and yet never darken the door of the church themselves.
Q: If the numbers are down, the number of people attending, and we know invocations are down for the priesthood, can you explain, I didn't really understand the rationale for keeping two seminaries open in Boston. One of those seminaries is in Weston, and one can't really underestimate the value of that much land in Weston.
O'MALLEY: Actually the value of that land, we've appraised. It's not as much as I had hoped. Now, if you would like to make an offer. Well, that seminary has evolved into being a national seminary for second-career men, it has an accelerated course, and there are men there from 30 diocese, the seminary's filled, it's self-sufficient at this point. St. John's, beyond whether the building is kept open or not, we need to have more locations, we need to have more priests, and it's my hope that as we nationalize Pope John that we can regionalize St. John's and we're trying to get the neighboring dioceses more interested in putting bishops on the board, inviting them to have retreats there, Bishop McDonnell was there, had a retreat, 35 young men for his diocese in New Hampshire. So before we would close the doors on that seminary, because if we close it it'll never reopen. I would like to see us try to regionalize, because I think in this part of the country there is no other seminary that's really serving that population. There are enough dioceses throughout that hopefully we'll be able to make a go of it, and if we don't, well, we'll look at other options. But the two seminaries are very different and, as I say, St. John's is self-sufficient, it's not a drain on the economy. And despite what people may think the real estate isn't as valuable. There's a lot of wetlands there. But the truth will tell what will happen, whether we'll be successful in trying to regionalize.... We're thinking of looking at the possibility of distance learning and things like that. And our committees have been working on a plan that would help us to make St. John's self-sufficient.
Q: To go back to the question about the Catholic population here, I wonder if you could talk a little about what the impact of immigration has been on diocese and also about your experience here, what differences in the way immigrants and people who are born in this country view you and the archdiocese.
O'MALLEY: Well, the Catholic Church in the United States is a church of immigrants. Obviously Boston is very heavily Irish and Italian, but now we have a lot of new peoples coming in, and many of them are Catholics. The other day at that immigration rally there was retired Episcopalian bishop next to me ... and said, "So these are your people." And I said, "They sure are." Haitians, Brazilians, Mexicans, El Salvadorans. Most of the immigrants coming in are from Catholic countries, many of them have very strong associations with the church, we are trying to preserve them the best we can. In the past, of course, we had a lot of priests in the St. James Society, now we have far fewer and they're aging. But many of them after serving in Peru and Ecuador and Bolivia came back and then became pastors for Hispanic ministries here. We're very grateful the Brazilian bishops have been good, they sent us priests because there are probably a quarter of a million Brazilians in the archdiocese, and that's, they've arrived in the past few years. The Haitian community, the Vietnamese Catholics. And like so many other immigrants, the church is a place for them to build community and they come together there. It's a very important part of the population, and it's a part of the population that really is seldom counted... They certainly are arriving and continuing the come. And they're having children. When I look at some of these parishes, and I see one parish where they had three times as many baptisms as funerals I said, "Oh, must be a Hispanic population there." That's part of the reality.
Q: Can we talk a little bit about the people around you, for lack of a better term, new management team. I'd be interested in your thinking about what you were looking for in putting together a leadership group, a group of advisors.
O'MALLEY: Well we're trying to make everyone feel that they are welcome. I know there's a lot of suspicion that there's kind of a blacklist. I think people love the church and want to be a part of it, and we want them to step up, and as far as forming a team when I came to Boston, I really didn't know anyone, and I was grateful for all the people in place who were very helpful to me, and tried to explain to me and help me to understand the situation.... I really would like to see the role of the auxiliary missions become more important. The diocese is so big that if the regions were stronger it would help us to have greater unity. So we would like to see their roles evolve, and we're trying to restructure the priest council in such a way that it can help the flow of unity between, dialogue between the priests and the archbishop, given importance to the vicarians, and ask the priests to take those meetings seriously, and instead of having people elected to the council by class or by age, we're bringing them by geographic regions so they can go back to their constituency and be channels of communication in both directions with the clergy. But by strengthening the regional bishops we hope that we will be able to strengthen even more the vicarians. We have changes coming up with the chancellor, the search committee tells me that we have some very good candidates they want me to interview next week so hopefully we'll have a response very quickly, and we're also looking for a new development person. So at this point in time we are getting a group of people in the chancellery, and with the finance council it became clear to me that in the past the function of the finance council was to improve the sales of real estate and to improve the budget. And that's very important, but in the crisis that we're in, we need more help. The budget we're presenting is a double-digit deficit. So we have formed different committees that are working as part of the finance committee to help with planning, and involved a variety of experts, people like Jack and Jim and so many others that have come on board. We've tried to use leadership from our catholic colleges; they've been a wonderful resource. There's a lot to be done and we're anxious to have as many people on board helping as we can get.
Q: If we can just follow up on that, as you choose the people though who are closest to you -- the new vicar general, the new secretary of education, the people who are really working with you on a day-to-day basis -- are you evaluating where they are on the theological spectrum, are there certain personality styles you're looking for? What is it when you sit down to interview with people who really are going to be running the archdiocese on a day-to-day basis, what are you looking for?
O'MALLEY: Well the first question I ask is, "Do you smoke?" (Laughter). It's a whole range of things certainly. Certainly their experience their ability to work with people. Their outlook, their energy their capacity to work, their capacity to work with people, their love for the church. I don't want people who see this simply as a job. I'm looking for people who have a sense of mission; that they really want to do this because they love the church and they want to further the Christ mission. That's what I'm looking for.
Q: Do you feel a need to reach out? With due respect to your colleagues here, they're awfully white and awfully male and awfully grey.... You're saying you're an immigrant church, and if that's true, are you planning to make a conscious effort to reach out to Hispanics, reach out to Haitians, reach out to women.
O'MALLEY: I have talked to the different people on the boards of all the Catholic Charities and asked them to make sure that we get a representation of all the different immigrant communities that we need to serve. Ann Carter, who's here, is on the search committee for chancellor. I told them my preference for chancellor would be a religious woman. I don't know whether they've been able to come up with someone. When I was a bishop before I had a religious woman as a chancellor. It's a wonderful fit, it's a way of holding up this location in the church, which, unfortunately appears to be greatly diminished. But we are a church of great diversity and we'd like to see that reflected in the leadership and the boards of the church.
Q: I was wondering, following up on that. Setting aside your obligation to accept of course the prohibition of women as priests, whether you find the rationale for that doctrine compelling, and what would happen to the Catholic Church were it to be changed?
O'MALLEY: Well, to me it's a matter of faith. The church's teaching goes back to the time of Christ and the apostles, and it's not something that we can change. If I could have the opportunity to say to our Lord, "Well, you know we really need that women priest, it would be so much easier for the church if you changed this for us." But we believe there are certain things that are givens. And this is one of the things that we believe is a given. And in the church we don't divide the world into warring genders and different factions. We see that everyone had different gifts that they bring to the church. A woman like Mother Teresa is more important than any priest or bishop that I can think of. And the contributions of women in the church; where would the church be? Most of our educations programs and health care institutions are run by our Catholic women, Catholic religious women. I see that it is difficult in today's climate, and it's not politically correct, and it's a place certainly where our faith bumps up against the popular culture, but it's a place where I think we need to do a better job of trying to get people to understand and accept what the church's teaching is.
Q: Could that change? How deep is it?
O'MALLEY: Two thousand years deep.
I think that the consistent teaching of the church for two thousand years, even when it has been challenged, and over the years there has been challenges, we've always come back to the same practice. So I … and what worries me is if people do not understand that this is Christ's rule for the church, and that if they don't feel the way that we do, that it can be changed, then it becomes a justice issue in their minds, and that worries me. I don't want people to think that the church is being unjust. I want them to see that we are being faithful even when it is difficult, even when it is challenging.
Certainly my meetings with the college presidents have been very encouraging. I think Father Leahy is sensitive to the needs for Boston College to deepen its Catholic identity and part of that means to be concerned about teaching. We have a very ongoing dialogue with all our Catholic colleges around issues of Catholic education. One of the encouraging things that they tell me is that they can't remember a generation of young people that's more religious than the ones who are at our universities right now. And not that they necessarily know a lot about the church, but there's an interest and an openness and a desire for connection with the church and with the spiritual life and I find that very encouraging. A few weeks ago I had a Mass ... and it was packed, on a Saturday afternoon, with youngsters. And what really blew my mind, was they were all dressed up. I thought I was back in the West Indies (Laughter). Neckties and dresses.
Q: Can I ask a social justice issue related to the financial crisis? ... We live in a time when General Motors can cut the benefits of its workers, when can steal the pensions of its workers....
O'MALLEY: Well, we are committed to taking care of the needs of our priests. No matter what it takes, we will take care of the priests.
We're facing, too, sort of a bubble. There was a time when there were huge ordination classes fifty and sixty years ago, and those are the classes coming up for retirement, and in the future it's not going to be quite as grave as it is now. It's something that we were working on and certainly the priests who have given their whole life to giving to the church are not going to be abandoned. It's interesting to see that the largest collection we have in the archdiocese is for the retired sisters. Because for so long the sisters didn't have any pension programs. And now that those communities are aging, and just by announcing that to our people, and that's across the country, that's not only the case in Boston, but everywhere, and I'm sure that no matter whether the Easter, Christmas collections are enough, these funds will be there to support.
Q: The church has so many missions, being such a complex organization, and really you're supporting education and health care in ways that others have never tried to do. And I realize all those are important. But circumstances have changed. As you try to figure your way through what to do to get out of the financial situation, is there a thought about scaling back, or eliminating some of those missions.
O'MALLEY: Certainly all of these missions are part of who we are. Whether we are able to do everything in the future I don't know, but certainly we are committed to the health care system, and thank God, the situation there has turned itself around and is going to be alright, and hopefully with the study of the schools, the 2010 initiative will reenergize our efforts along those lines, so I don't see us cutting back in those areas.
Q: It seems like since you've been here it seems like you've presided over a period of just incredible, continual transition, challenge, big challenge after big challenge. Transitions, none more breathtaking than using the word illustrious to describe this newspaper. But I wonder … it's obvious how you've changed Boston, but I wonder how serving here has changed you. Many people would have been ground to dust by now. How have you changed?
O'MALLEY: I think it makes the focus more on what is essential, and that is my vocation, to try to follow the Lord, to try to be faithful, and realize that a lot of other things you thought were important really aren't that important. I think in general for many Catholics, the crisis has caused us to focus more on what is the very center of the church, why we are Catholics, who our God is and the mission that's given to us. It's not about me. It's about Christ, his church, his mission. I'm just a small part of it. I do my best. Sometimes it will be inadequate.
Q: Are you glad you came to Boston?
O'MALLEY: You know, every change has been difficult.... As bishop I was junior by thirty years to the next youngest priest in the diocese, and having never worked there, but then when I left there I felt this.. how could I ever leave? I felt the same way when I left Fall River. Wherever you go, the hardest thing is saying goodbye. But then when you get to a new place you find that there are people there, and it's the same church. I'm very happy to be here, and if I were sent somewhere else I would probably have the same separation anxiety that I had when I left the other places that I've worked.
Q: Are you glad you came here today?
O'MALLEY: Well it wasn't as bad as I thought.
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