PAUL BAIER: Right, and the Linkup website is Thelinkup.com.

SUE ARCHIBALD: Dot org.

PAUL BAIER: Dot org. So www.thelinkup.org and www.SNAPnetwork.org and www.RichardSipe.org?

RICHARD SIPE: No.

PAUL BAIER: Don’t you have a web site?

RICHARD SIPE: [cross talk]

PAUL BAIER: I am trying to make it up to you. [laughter] I think Richard’s got a web site and we’ll find out what it is.

RICHARD SIPE: It is Richard Sipe at aol.com.

PAUL BAIER: Oh, it’s email, okay. [cross talk]

RICHARD SIPE: No, just RichardSipe.com, sorry. [cross talk]

PAUL BAIER: RichardSipe.com. www.richardsipe.com, and if you can also go to Bishop Accountability.org and we’ll have all these links as well. But go ahead with your question.

JENNY: Okay, then also I would like to know if any of you have had an insight into the Magdalene sisters? And their asylums? I am a victim of their abuse in the late 50s and I am not dealing with the Irish government, I’ve been through my emotional stuff so, I’m really not looking for pity, but I’m running into a lot of roadblocks and holes. I think my name was possibly changed by my parents and, you know, trying to get adoption records and whatever. I know some of you have been to Ireland and I heard that there were one or two of these houses still in existence, yet the movie says there isn’t so, if anybody has any information about it, I’d be glad to hear.

TOM DOYLE: I’ve been to Ireland several times. A few times in the past couple of years in connection with this basic issue and I know a couple of the people who were initially involved in the exposure of the Magdalene sisters. My understanding is that the last, one of the institutions was closed, I believe, I want to say, 1978, but I may have my numbers off, but my understanding is that it was closed. However, if you’d be good enough to give me a name, an address and a phone number I will start, and I’ll shoot an inquiry over to some of my contacts for you. I can’t give you their names and addresses, right now, because I don’t know them. I know their names, but I don’t know their email addresses offhand. But, we maybe able to help you in that regard.

JENNY: Thank you very much. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: Next question.

BERNIE: Hi, I’m Bernie [last name deleted] a victim of the Archdiocese of Boston. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: We can’t hear you.

BERNIE: Paul, Tom, David, the others, I can’t, Richard, and I forget your two names right there.

PAUL: Jason, Susan.

BERNIE: Jason and Susan. Thank you. Thank you for your hard efforts and time that you continue to bring to all of this. And, I’ve watched now for 22 months in my life and it’s been upside down and I’m grateful and I’m also grateful for David, even with the book., David France, even though I don’t agree with some of the views he wrote about me, but that’s okay. [laughter] I do want to acknowledge my dear friend victims that have suffered with me this year through this whole thing publicly. Olan Horne, Gary Bergeron, and Bobby Martin and [inaudible]. [applause] Stand up. [applause] Thank you. Thank you, you guys are the best. Gary and I went to Rome with Gary’s father, I got thrown out by the Swiss guards. [laughter] I tried everything over there. I found a friend in Salem, I cannot name his name, who’s a personal friend of the Pope. He called on the last day there and I had a private meeting with the Vatican Secretary of State. Okay. The news put it as a flunk, that we didn’t see the Pope. But, we got a message to the Pope that night. My point being this, the only way that I personally see that in our life time that we can make headway here is, again, during the pressure period which is, I call the window of opportunity that is closing. They have to be embarrassed. Publicly embarrassed. We used the media. We used the lawyers, they used us. The media used us. We knew this was going on all year. Okay. The last two years. But, it was for a good cause and we made them stand up and be accountable. But, I see them as ostriches with their heads in the sand and as you were talking about today, David, if they can get away with, and trust me 85 million is nothing to this church. Nothing. This was the fifth lowest pay-out in the country. Everybody thinks we all made big money here. This is a disgrace. They would love to go home with this being over at this level. But, I will say this, I will say this for the good Catholics, it is our spirit and our belief in God that will prolong. It’s our church, not theirs. It’s our church. [applause] But, I challenge everybody here today because Boston is where it began. Boston is where it broke out publicly. The Vatican has to be called on. The big guy has to be called on and it has to be done soon. Thank you. [applause] [cross talk]

JASON BERRY: I want to congratulate you indeed. I just want to give you a little information. Cardinal Sodano, the Secretary of State, has publicly said that the news media in the United States over-blew the problem. The Vatican right now is in a state of paralysis because of the Pope’s condition. And I can tell you that the attitude in Rome toward this situation is that the American media is scandal-driven and out of control and that the American legal system gives such wide latitude to plaintiff attorneys that the church is being unfairly attacked. The greater concern, I would say, on the part of the Vatican is the dialogue with Islam and the rise of the church in the third world. I’m merely giving you a factual explanation of what I perceive the situation to be, I’m in no way making a moral judgment. I’m right with you in what you think. This is my opinion, they never hear from us. You go on CNN, you go on CNN and you think, we’ve sent a message to the world. Not true, not true. Yeah, people in the Vatican watch CNN. Nobody writes to them. Well then, keep writing to them. Write to every one of them. Find their emails and keep sending them emails. Send them pictures of victims when they were kids. You know, this may sound like, you know, primary school civics but, for all of the news coverage in this country, the Vatican is a castle and the Italian news media has devoted comparatively little of its coverage to this issue. They did when the Cardinals went in 2002. But, the mentality of the Italian media, and I can tell you this, I talked to a lot of reporters in the Italian media, the attitude is that, well this is the American legal system. In Italy, the procedures for discovery are nothing like they are in the English-speaking countries based in common law. Lawyers don’t go in with subpoena power to get massive depositions. Jerry Renner and I did an extensive search and even hired a journalist in Italy to get information. In the entire nation of Italy, we came up with 19 known cases. I do not believe that human behavior stops at the water’s edge. I think that it’s fairly consistent. So the question is, without pressure from the Italian media because of cases in Italy, the Vatican does not feel the pressure. Yes, they know that there is a problem, but I’m saying if you want to make a difference, if you want reach Rome, communicate with them.

PAUL BAIER: In terms of just meeting management, we do need to end here at four so I think, we get through the questions. Mary, is that you at the end there? And maybe Mary [last name deleted] there, we’ll kind of get through these questions and then I think that will take us to four. If we have time for more questions we’ll keep going, but go ahead.

JOHN: John [last name deleted] from the contingent from New Hampshire. Some of us, most of us are either VOTF or New Hampshire Catholics for Moral Leadership members. New Hampshire Catholics for Moral Leadership has about 1500 signers from most of the state of New Hampshire calling for a declaration for the removal of our Bishop John McCormack. [applause] Carolyn reminds me it’s also Bishop Frances Christian who’s being called for removal. [applause] The web site is www.nhcatholics.org. My question is, Bishop McCormack having been one of the famous or rather infamous graduates of the class of 1960 of which Murphy and there were a few others that are still in position and still remaining in office: what does this panel believe? It’s not at any one person, saying that Jason Berry, they never hear from us. What would a RICO suit, would a suit aimed at the feasibility for a class action bring any more public notoriety to what’s going on, to what’s going on here in the United States? Does anyone have any experience or the benefit of lawyers who have done or may do, or is it feasible to do, either of those suits?

JASON BERRY: There’s been no successful RICO case that I am aware of, but I am going to defer to Dick Sipe and Tom Doyle on this because they do expert witness testimony and research for law firms and I do not. RICO and class action.

RICHARD SIPE: RICO is being tried. I mean it’s being explored, I think I know of three efforts that are going on. It’s very, very difficult, but I think that people are going to try to make the connection between the Vatican and the American Church, and their responsibilities. Very, very difficult but two efforts I think have failed, or folded for a time anyway, as far as I know.

JASON BERRY: Certainly there’s precedent for this. Praise the Lord with Tammy Fay Baker was shut down by the federal government on tax misuse. We have certainly heard second hand, I don’t know if people can hear me, second-hand that the Department of Justice has been told not to touch this issue until elections are over this year. I think realistically, you know, there is a huge, this is a political question not a legal technical question,

RICHARD SIPE: There’s a very noted lawyer in the audience, I wonder if he could say something to this?

PAUL BAIER: Say his name?

RICHARD SIPE: Yeah, Bob [last name deleted]would you be embarrassed if I—

PAUL BAIER: Is he still here? [cross talk] Are you still here? Well if he is we’ll bring him back. Okay, let’s keep going if he comes back, we’ll –

JOHN: Specifically would a RICO suit by the laity be feasible?

DAVID CLOHESSY: You know, I am certainly no lawyer and don’t pretend to be, but let me just say that, that it’s clear that what has been tried, has had minimal impact on bishop accountability, unfortunately so. I mean, we applaud any innovative approach, legal or otherwise to try to put some heat on these guys. And we applaud what you all have done, in New Hampshire.

JASON BERRY: I would just like to add one thing, not in a legal reflection, but, as you may know on February 27th, Robert Bennett and the Review Board are going to release their document. It’s been my contention all along, and I said so, when I testify to the group, that there has to be a mechanism to remove bishops who have so terribly betrayed the trust. And again, I think if you all write letters and send emails and do it in a concerted way over the next couple of weeks, so that they are not form letters, but individual letters. Let people know, call them on the phone. You can get the names and certainly, I think the emails of the Review Board members on the Web. If they don’t hear from people, you’ve lost an opportunity. If you give them your information and your opinion, even if they don’t do what you want, at least it’s part of the slow building of the critical mass, and that’s what we’ve got to do, build the critical mass with information and opinion that people will response to. Go ahead.

SUE ARCHIBALD: And, I would just add one thing, when you’re thinking about taking that step just remember that you’re the stock holders of the Church and at anytime you have the right to vote out the Board of Directors. So, cast your vote. [applause]

TOM DOYLE: Can I add a codicil or a footnote to that. In another life you know I was a functionary in the Vatican Embassy, before I saw the light and became a Christian, and [laughter] I am sorry for the cynicism, there’s a little bit that comes out every now and then. You know there’s an arrogance on their part towards Americans, toward lay people, toward anyone that disagrees with them and does not bow down and worship the monarchs. There’s an incredible arrogance and disdain. But, there are times when that is overcome by sure power, and that is, I agree, if you keep writing, keep making noises, because if they don’t hear it, well they say, everybody’s happy, we haven’t heard one complaint. Of course, what they’re not going to tell you is that when you do get all the complaints often times they will ignore them. Bob Bennett told me when I went to see him in June and was interviewed by the National Review Board, that he had called several times to speak with Archbishop Montalvo, who is the Vatican Ambassador, and none of his calls were returned. Now what does that tell you? That’s where I’d start, I’d start with the Vatican Embassy in Washington DC, bombard them. Keep going, keep it up. Keep it up. Sooner or later, you know, remember 1984 when I got involved in this thing for the first time, there was like a solid procession of two. No one ever dreamed we would be where we are today, and that’s a lot,. [applause]

CHRISTINE: My name’s Christine [last name deleted]. I’m a member of Boston SNAP. I was raped by a priest when I was 11. And I wanted to also thank you all for being here. and your courage and the work you’ve done for us. I didn’t have question but a comment. It’s something that I’ve been thinking about for couple of years and here’s opportunity to say it to you all. It’s back to the question of survivors wanting to be in the Catholic Church. I think it was Mary Ann who asked about how do we bring the survivors to the Church. And I, personally, I have to say I find that offensive, because if I wanted to be in the Church, I would be in the Church. I left the Church when I was fourteen, not because I was raped by a priest, because I had repressed it, I hadn’t remembered it, but because I made a choice that I didn’t believe in the teachings, the social teachings of the Catholic Church. And, I think Mr. Berry , you said something about the only spirituality, or maybe I mis-heard you, but I thought you said the only spirituality -- and I just wanted to say that it’s possible for people to have a rich, full spiritual life without --and I wanted to pick up on that [applause: words inaudible] and maybe I may have misunderstood what you said, but II don’t think you need to be a Catholic or a Christian to have a spiritual life .

JASON BERRY: Oh, I agree with you abundantly. The point I was making is that for me I have been unable to find a spirituality to replace my own as a Catholic. I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that anyone couldn’t. I’ve got a lot of friends who are Jews, you know, and Protestants. Atheists, I think they have a certain measure of spirituality, some of them at least, so I really don’t in any way mean to imply that I’ve got the answer and yours is not a valid.

CHRISTINE: Maybe I misunderstood.

JASON BERRY: I may have not made that clear and so I do apologize.

CHRISTINE: It’s just something that I hear over and over and I think, I really respect VOTF, [there are persons who have] helped me tremendously, but I think people need to respect that you don’t need to try to get us back into the Church. For those who want, and I respect the survivors who are Catholic, for those who want to be Catholics, wonderful, and welcome and work with them. But, for those of us who aren’t, just please respect that a lot of the survivors that aren’t Catholics and don’t want to be and it’s not necessarily because they were abused. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: Thank you, Christine. We all continue to learn as ]we have a ] kindergarten education understanding of this. I’ve also been in meetings where, well-meaning, [well-] intentioned Catholics have asked survivors, when’s the last time you’ve take the Host? From a survivor’s standpoint, and hopefully we are all learning, that is [an] incredibly inappropriate question and I think it’s not meant to be inappropriate it’s just that I think we’re all learning how to interact and deal with survivors respectfully. Just wait, one quick, we have question from a person who is in a cane and wheelchair and can’t come down to the podium, so let me read. My apologies I don’t have this name. Lou, who’s the name? Okay. Her question is, how do we get to justice? The Boston’s AG report reported 250 religious and dioceses priests with allegations, yet only a handful are being criminally prosecuted. None of the civil cases list, none of the civil cases settled list the perpetrators on sex offenders’ lists. They are living freely in our community today. Continuing to place children at risk. David or? Yes.

DAVID CLOHESSY: You know.--

PAUL BAIER: How do we get justice is the question.

DAVID CLOHESSY: It’s a great question. You know, part of it involves changing and reforming the criminal and civil statutes. Obviously the safest place, the safest kids are , is when molesters are locked up but even if that can’t happen, if they can at least be civilly prosecuted, at least parents are warned about them. I would echo what Jason and Tom said, with a slightly different twist: it’s also critical, one can question whether or not public pressure has an impact on bishops, but it’s pretty clear that public impact can and does have an impact on public officials, especially District Attorneys. And in many instances their initial response is, “We lack the tools, we lack the laws.” But, I think what survivors around the country have learned is that often times they lack the political will. And we’ve seen that, that if sufficient pressure is applied, DA’ s dig deep, look hard, and find statutes that can apply. We always cite the Al Capone example, they got him on tax evasion you know, and they’ve gotten abusive priests on possession of child pornography. They’ve gotten abusive priests on serving alcohol to kids. But it’s only when the District Attorney feels sufficient pressure that they act.

PAUL BAIER: Great, thanks.

CAROLYN: Carolyn [last name deleted], Merrimack, New Hampshire. My concern is documents, documents, documents. Walter Robinson of the Globe said the whole coverage was document-driven. Richard has said you need to establish the facts and those are contained in the documents. But the bishops have a very sophisticated effort to make sure they are never as vulnerable again by restricting access to documents. They adopted a policy in November of 2002, calling for the destruction of all priests’ personnel files seven years after priests leave a diocese. That’s a guideline throughout the country for bishops. My own diocese intends to follow that. I have tried repeatedly without success to get the media to pay attention to the efforts of bishops, either through the legislature, through first amendment claims, through their own guidelines, through their deliberate distortion of canon law to prevent the documents coming out. In Rhode Island, there were 13,000 documents not revealed because the lawyers settled without pushing for their release. We have a problem with lawyers saying that documents are not my job. Where would we be without the lawyers who’ve made documents their own job? How can we get the media to pay attention? How can we highlight this issue? What can groups come together on and develop, either a playbook or, a white paper or something,? I’ve just not been able to get any traction and that’s the key. The documents.

RICHARD SIPE: I couldn’t agree with you more, Carolyn, and but, if you listen to yourself, you’ve made several suggestions that can be powerful. Just listen to what you said. You have the power. You folks have the power. You cooperate. You focus on an issue, and this is a very important issue. Is the church going now to go into an institutional retreat and another institutional cover-up from that? I mean, that should be highlighted, and who can ask those questions? You are the people to ask those questions. [cross talk]

CAROLYN: We wish the media would pay attention; they’re ignoring us on it. We keep trying, obviously, but I haven’t been able to get any traction on that despite repeated attempts. Wire services, major newspapers,--no one seems to care.

RICHARD SIPE: But you care, and that makes the difference. I’m a person who has been alone for years. I’ve said things years ago and people scoffed at me. I was put down. I was called foolish. I was called a liar. And you just can’t let it bother you. You just go ahead. And I’ve kept doing research, I’ve kept writing and you know if I’m vindicated, fine. You know, but that’s all I can do. But, I’m so gratified when I meet people like you Carolyn and you others who say I have made a difference. I can’t tell you what that means to my life and to my spirit. And, I’m just doing what I can and being who I am. If I make a difference, I thank you. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: To [respond] specifically to Carolyn’s question, we have seen documents come from three major places. One is the grand jury reports and we have four of those. We have another ten standing grand juries. I think that is an opportunity for us to apply public pressure and encouragement to law enforcement. Second, we’ve seen them come out in civil cases. The 40 some thousand at Shanley, others are still coming out. And third, we’ve seen media outlets, newspapers and TV stations sue to open sealed cases. And, in Chicago there’s a recent another example, I believe is Chicago ,where a TV station is suing. The LA Times is in a lawsuit to get access to those. So, I think we’re learning where the cracks are, but there’s clearly a institutional bias, this is my editorial, to never let Boston happen again. Never find the Church in a situation where 50,000 documents come out and it’s just going to be tougher. Let’s keep going through the questions here.

DEBBIE: Hi, my name is Debbie and I am from the Diocese of Springfield, the home of the newly-laicized Richard Levine. [applause] And I am very grateful to be here. I was new to the church in 1999 and at the year of 2000, became a victim of sexual abuse by an order priest here in Massachusetts. I’m very grateful that Susan Archibald has been just tremendous around this issue, it’s a very hidden issue. An unpublicized issue of abuse of adults by clergy. I was very grateful for my supportive husband, who actually suggested that I get on the Internet and look for a psychologist or groups dealing with sexual abuse by priests because I had no clue that that’s really, what had happened to me. So anyway, my question is I actually have two, one is for Richard Sipe, like a ballpark figure on some numbers on the incidents of them, abuse, of adult men and woman. And also for Father Doyle, I’m very concerned about the legalities and the accountability of these perpetrators against adults. So, my question for you is , for those of us who have been abused as adults, by clergy, what is the most effective, course of action we can pursue legally, economically, or both to hold these perpetrators accountable and to see some changes?

RICHARD SIPE: In order, I’ll answer the first one and Tom certainly can address the second. According to a 25-year ethnographic study that I did, my conclusion was that 6% of Roman Catholic priests get involved with minors. And that four times that many priests are involved with adult woman. Now, again, you have to take that and say, and distill from the adults, which is abuse and which is real consent and love affairs and so on. But, there is a solid proportion of Roman Catholic priests all the time who are involved with woman. Either willing or unwilling. I’ve been involved with a number of cases where the priests certainly harassed, abused, adult woman. And it is important and it’s an underrated issue, that I think will have to come up and have to be solved in the future. It is an important issue.

DEBBIE: Great, well you know you just mentioned something that is a real, buzz word for me and that was this word consent. I’d like to make it very clear that from what I’ve come to understand about this issue is that whenever there is this imbalance, inequality of power which is always present between a priest or a religious, like a monk or anybody in that field and an average person, an average person--

RICHARD SIPE: Yes.

DEBBIE: -- an average woman or average man, that is not true consent, no matter what.

RICHARD SIPE: Sure, and that’s not what I mean.

DEBBIE: Okay, okay.

RICHARD SIPE: That’s not what I mean.

DEBBIE: Sorry [cross talk]

RICHARD SIPE: That is not consent.

DEBBIE: Okay.

RICHARD SIPE: By consent, I mean two people who are free to make decisions, and you know, the point is what you’re talking about is not consent.

TOM DOYLE: I was ordained [cross talk] is it on? I was ordained in 1970. Around that time in the order to which I belong in the Catholic clergy around then, there were men leaving the priesthood by the dozen in my little area, every week. Leaving to get married. It still happens. Not in the same amount of numbers, but most of these are men that meet women somewhere along the line in the course of their work and they fall in love. And, they develop an intimate relationship and that relationship is carried outside the organized ministry and they end up married or living together. Whatever. Ordinarily married. So, those relationships have happened and I know some of the most Christ-like men that I know are men who were priests that are married. So, I think it is, and can be misleading to say that anytime a priest becomes involved in a relationship with a woman that it’s abusive or harassing. But, I think what you’re saying is that category where they are. And one of the issues that I have seen and I’m convinced exist surrounding this is an inability on the part of the hierarchical or the monarchical power structure, excuse me, to understand the meaning of the power differential and the reality of what we call a trauma bond. These are what happens when this starts to exist, when the relationship, if you want to call it, I don’t like to call it a relationship, but I can’t think of a better word. One of the things.

DEBBIE: Involvement.

TOM DOYLE: Well, involvement,-- and I’m getting in trouble all the time because I’m not using the same kind of words someone else wants to hear, but you know, language is different, and that’s me. I say relationship, okay, you know what I’m talking about. What I’m talking about is something that’s harmful. What do you do about that? Well, first off, there’s going to be a presumption on the part of the monarchy that the woman is giving consent and B, that she somehow led the guy into this. Now this goes all the way down. I’ve had, heard, you know, priests say to me that well this young girl was 12 or 13 and she looked like 17 or 16 and so she was partly responsible for seducing that priest. You know, I want to scream and pull my hair out because he doesn’t get it. And it’s not what she looked like. If she is 38, walks in naked, and he seduces her, it’s still evil. ‘Cause the point is it’s using someone else, and I think, you have to, but my question, my question is, or your question, is what to do about it? The issue there as I’m not sure in the civil arena how successful you might be.

SUE ARCHIBALD: A little known fact, and the bishops fail to recognize this too, is that 21 states have criminalized the sexual exploitation between clergy and vulnerable adults. They’ve added clergy to the lists that has included therapists and doctors and attorneys. People in positions of trust. [applause] and so I think we need to remind the bishops that it is a crime and also a lot of bishops have now, or dioceses under pressure have added in their policies, items that pertain to sexual misconduct with vulnerable adults and I think that we need to keep holding the bishops’ feet to the fire to look at those serious cases, and address them much as they do the sexual abuse of minors. Not because of the, the actions of the priests but the devastating impact that it has on the victims.

DEBBIE: Thank you.

ROBIN: Thank you, my name is Robin [last name deleted] and I am a victim and a re-victim of adult sexual exploitation. I am here today picking up on David’s themes of headlines with my own version of a present day headline which is; Hold on to Your Hats Folks, There’s Another Layer. My perpetrator was a Director of Religious Education, and when I reported my abuse, his supervising pastor told me, well certainly, there were signs. Yet, I personally witnessed him refer to my perpetrator as the most perfect example of a human being and literally get down on one knee and bow to my perpetrator and call him Lord.

TOM DOYLE: This guy ever hear of Thorazine? [laughter]

ROBIN: I realize that we are preaching to the choir here but, I do want people to keep in mind another scary thought, if we haven’t all been petrified enough. Religious educators come in contact with children and adults on a daily basis, and I want the researchers on the panel to keep in mind that the priest databases that are , thankfully creeping up across the country, thanks to Paul Baier and the efforts of Survivors First, which I refer to as perp databases, contain the names of anyone ever on Vatican payroll, which would include these religious educators. And when I hear about survivors and supporters who continue to send their children through Catholic religious education, I am in daily fear over what’s going to happen to those children, while we’re looking over here, what’s happening over here? This is bystander psychology alive and well and kicking and I just would like to request that you keep this in mind when you do your research.

PAUL BAIER: I think that’s great and one thing, excuse me, just so people know, on Survivors First web site we do have a list of any Vatican employee that is either has an allegation, and that includes religious leaders, volunteers, lay teachers, and we’ve seen all these nuns as well as religious and order deacons and priests and monks and everything else so it’s a real important point.

RICHARD SIPE: You’re making a very important point. This is an under-reported problem and it’s a very difficult complex problem – it’s complex legally, and it’s complex psychologically, but the Diocese , the Archdiocese of Anchorage, I thought, did a fine job. They were criticized by this group that moved in, but they revealed that they have existed since 1966 and they have 80, a total of 80 Priests and they have had 17 abusers. Seven of those abusers had abused minors. Five within the Diocese and two outside the Diocese, and the other 10 were of other people. Not minors but they counted, the sexual exploitation. And that’s the way any report should come out and that’s a very interesting thing when you see the proportion that you see, seven out of eighty is a substantial number of priests abusing children, but 10, and additional 10 out of the , 75, or , or 68, is a very significant proportion.

PAUL BAIER: Great, four more questions. We’ll wrap up and go to reception. Haven’t forgot anybody.

SUSAN: Hi, my name is Susan [last name deleted] from here Wellesley, Mass. My question , has a legal aspect to it, but what about the priests? There has been sort of a deafening silence, these are our pastors, our priests, and they don’t seem to have read the same gospel that we’ve been referring to today. Sort of starting with Tom, is the only reason this infantilization and this fear of speaking out, but why haven’t they come and walked with the survivors? Why haven’t they supported Voice of the Faithful and, and I wonder, anecdotally, maybe my vision is just here in Boston and there might be hope other places. I know the priests have signed a letter in Milwaukee, Chicago, but is there any hope in that area , that we will get support? And also, throwing it at the tail end is, who’s coming up through the ranks?

TOM DOYLE: That’s a great question, I’m going to give a couple quickies and then defer to Dick. If that is okay. Why aren’t they speaking out? I’ve been a priest 33 years, hopefully I’ve been a Christian a lot longer than that, but I was in the bans for a while and then woke up again.

My take on it is this from being a participate observer, number one, there is a kind of socialization that goes into the whole part, training of a priest where we are above and better. And there’s almost a built-in, almost a disdain for lay people. Secondly, those who would like to speak out and find injustice in all of this, there’s almost a kind of a process, that’s a schizophrenic process that goes on. It starts negating the accusations and it’s a denial mechanism. Well, this woman that just come up, she was abused because she, she egged on the priest. You know, or these little kids, well their parents weren’t taking proper care of them. It’s the press, it’s this, so there’s a big denial, because for many men being part of the clerical substructure gives them every bit of their identity and if that’s gone, their identity is gone and they don’t know where to find it.

Secondly, there is a very real fear because priests are serfs in the monarchy. They are not the knights, the knights are the Monsignors that work in the offices. But the priests, are the worker bees, so to speak, and they live in fear because they live in a monarchy and they really have very little rights. Very little rights. Ah, on the other hand, you know we talk about the challenges of the gospel and the risks and so on and so forth, and I have been increasingly infuriated by the fact that not one priest group in this country has spoken out. The National Federation of Priest Councils is suppose to be forward looking. They never said, “Boo,” until 2002 when this declaration come out of the Vatican about dispatching the priests. One, two, three, then they all of a sudden became very bent out of shape and concerned over priests’ rights. And I told the President, I said when did you start getting concerned about the rights of the victims? You haven’t. So, until you say something about them, we are not going to get in line with you.

PAUL BAIER: Go ahead Jason.

JASON BERRY: I want to, to give a different kind of answer. I certainly share Tom’s outrage about the utter silence from the Priests’ Council, the National Federation and the other group. In fact, about five years ago, the National Federation of Priests’ Council gave an award to Vincent Dwyer, a priest who almost singlehandedly destroyed a seminary in San Diego. I wrote about him in Lead Us Not Into Temptation, and they gave this guy an award. I’ve two observations and I’m going to pass it to Richard. The first is that I think many priests are shell-shocked, they’re embarrassed. In some ways, they are humiliated. The system, the culture, if you will, of reward that many pastors have experienced, you move into a community, you’re invited to dinner. You’re invited to go to the vacation home and so forth. I think a lot of that is starting to dissipate More than that ,I think many of these men, having known perpetrators and having not spoken out, also on a personal level, feel ashamed. You also have to look at the older, especially the Irish and Italian American priests, age 60 and over. I’ve been told probably 25 times in interviews or conversations over the years that these, the graying generation, if you will, were the last of the jocks. It’s it a loaded term, but what they mean is the generation coming up is not what they are. For one thing , it’s a much thinner, smaller generation numerically. So, the priesthood itself is a beleaguered culture. And, as much as a critic as I am of the bishops, they can’t talk about it to Rome, they have no way of engaging Rome in a dialogue--

[End of Tape 1, Side A; Beginning of Tape 1, Side B]

JASON BERRY (continued):-We are dealing in a environment where things cannot be said, and it’s the evidence of things unsaid that you and others are raising. So, again, I would encourage you, write. Let them know what you feel. Leave voice mails, leave emails.

PAUL BAIER: I think there are 5 or 6 or 10 priests who are doing heroic stuff that I think VOTF and all the Catholics need to make huge folk heroes out of, like [Scahill] in Springfield and Father Gene that has helped Mary and, I know you’ve got some more. [cross talk]

DAVID CLOHESSY: We have on our web site a list of I think 12 or 15 Priests like this who’ve we publicly recognized and I beg you all to write to these men and applaud them. The single most courageous Catholic pastor in America is right in Massachusetts, Father Jim Scahill out in East Longmeadow, [applauds] who [inaudible]

JASON BERRY: A very quick footnote to that, show of hands; how many of you have ever been in a Catholic seminary? Set foot in one? Not bad. How many of you have been in one in the last year? Not bad. If everybody went to a seminary in groups of four and five and just called the Rector and said, we want to come over and have dinner. [cross talk] No I mean it, go to your seminary. Sit down. Meet the young men and see what they’re like. I’m not saying they’re Martians. I’m not saying they are future pedophiles, but you know, until the Church feels that lay people are , engaging them in dialogue--

SUSAN: You got me there, Jason, I have to step to the mike on that one.

RICHARD SIPE: I would like us to address –

SUSAN: Don’t worry, they’ve been engaged. They have turned down the engagement, they have turned down the request for dialogue. I have, and I don’t think there is a person in this room that doesn’t believe that.

RICHARD SIPE: But I think one thing we should make ourselves conscious of: we are living a myth. We are living a myth and we, many of us, most of us contribute to it, and the myth is that a priest is a sexless being. You asked why the priests don’t speak up. It is because they themselves have a sexuality and that many of them express it, often times in legal ways, but the myth is that if you are a priest, you are celibate. That is not true. That doesn’t mean there are not priests who are heroic and celibate, but as long as we preserve that myth, that priesthood equals celibacy, we cannot get through this. Priest is sexual. Marriage is not opposed to sexuality or , priesthood. Celibacy is opposed to marriage. We have the equation wrong. You cannot be married and celibate. You can[not] be married and sexual and be a priest. The point is, that that’s gotten translated and that myth is preserved over, and over, over again. You and I don’t look at a bishop and say, what is his sexual life like? Well, I do, now. [laughter]

JASON BERRY: Oh, I think we all do now. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: Keep going, we have three more questions. Go ahead, Mary. Mary, you’re next.

MARY: I am speechless. I know all of you on a different level.

PAUL BAIER: You’ve got to speak into the mike, Mary, it’s hard to hear.

MARY: Told you I was speechless. Richard I’ve read a lot of your work. Tom. Sue, I am Mary [ last name deleted]. Jason I read your book eight years ago and David, you know me. This probably going to sound critical, but what I think I am in a room full of Catholics. Am I mistaken? Is this a majority of people here? [cross talk] Well, the thing that stands out to me is that the majority of people here are American citizens first, and perhaps Catholicism has ruled in our lives, all of us, as being first. But, since I’ve developed and changed and grown, I am an American citizen. And Jason, you struck me pretty deep because you were so involved in the civil movement and it’s clear to me that’s who you are. I read your book so I know. – But there’s so many people and the question that keeps coming back, over and over again, what can we do? And, the thing that I’ve gotten from the panel repeatedly, perhaps unintentionally, because all of you seem to be from Catholicism, as I was, you keep telling them to take the power but you’re telling them to defer to Rome. You are telling them to email to Rome. Call Rome. Call your Bishops. Call your priests. Defer to the priests that you just said are powerless cowards, a lot of them. And as American citizens, what you should be doing, in my opinion, is calling your legislatures and calling your [applause] AG’s. There’s not one lawyer in the United States genuinely that I have come across and I’ve dealt with a lot of them-- there are 6,000 lawyers in the State of Rhode Island. I spoke to 25 to 30 lawyers to try and get an attorney and I had to repeat the gory details over and over, and over again, only to be told I can’t, because there’s a conflict because they work for the Church, the majority of them. There’s not a lawyer in the United States who abides by the oath of being an American citizen who has done a whole lot genuinely for victims. Settlements themselves are not going to do anything, they are going to empower Rome. And I guess I’m asking all of you as American citizens, do you see what I’m saying, and what maybe you can offer us so more [cross talk]

JASON BERRY: What do you want the Catholics to do? Is it statutes of limitations? So, keep going with what you are [cross talk]

MARY: Pick up the telephone, write a letter. Call – you know, your legislators. Stand by a victim because this has not hung out since 2002, it’s been here for a really long time. [cross talk]

TOM DOYLE: Mary, I’d like to ask you a question if you don’t mind. If there were a reform Catholic Church in the United States, do you think you might be willing to join it?

MARY: Never, and the reason why I would never join a “reformed” Catholic church, because it would still be under the auspices of Rome and canon law tells and, and, Tom, I’m going to defer to you, but I know you know and understand what I’m going to say, canon law, The Roman Catholic Church in and of itself is a government entity as you have, I mean you obviously understand that. But most of us don’t understand that and it’s going to sound radical, but the only analogy that I can make is we have Saddam Hussein who’s involved in Iraq, and we have what’s his face, Osama Bin Laden, in Afghanistan, and if any, either one of those people from Iraq or Afghanistan started to develop churches, synagogues in the United States all of us would, our hair would stand up. And they said they want tax-free. They want to build their empire. Well that’s what Rome has done, very successfully, and we are all a product of it. [applause] So,

RICHARD SIPE: Did you like Tom’s suggestion that you quit giving money?

MARY: Oh, I did that a long time ago. [laughter] But, go ahead, I just – so anyway that’s – you asked and there was a woman over there talking about washing feet, asking the bishops to wash feet. I would never want to have anything to do with that, because I find it disgusting. I find it ritual, not you, I understand, because I was a Catholic once. So, all of you are citizens of the United States and we should be holding to the United States Constitution, and every single day the constitutional stuff is deteriorating because Rome is infiltrating. And, I don’t know if I’m articulating this clearly enough, but –am I being too long?

PAUL BAIER: No go ahead, that’s fine.

MARY: The Attorney General in Boston, the citizens of the state have absolutely the right to call a grand jury themselves and hold the Attorney General to carry out his job and most of us didn’t know that, and don’t know that. And that’s why we have deferred to the government and allowed them to do what they can do. So, really you guys have all of the power and you can’t keep deferring to Rome or to a hierarchical [inaudible] of a political power. So, that’s all I have to offer. [applause]

TOM DOYLE: I want to make a response. I am going to speak, forgive me on behalf of everybody up here. The survivor movements, the Linkup, SNAP, Dick, myself, and all the people that aren’t here that are activist, and I want to say that I think if there is one common denominator with all of us, it’s the pragmatism to get the job done and to get it done any way we can. And you know, we have to accept the fact that this a huge sociological reality called the Rome Catholic Church, you can’t deny that it’s there, ‘cause it is there. And there are also a lot of people that want to be part of that. And that’s okay. I have to accept that and respect that, and encourage that if they want to be part of that in their way. But, pragmatically, let me tell you, what we are trying to do is not easy. ‘Cause everybody’s doing it on a part-time basis. Everybody’s trying to survive in this thing. Its not easy to get involved in the court system. To wade your way through it. To fight, to cajole. To do all this stuff. Getting involved in the ecclesiastical court system -- there isn’t even a word to describe what that’s like in the English language. That, makes confusion, you know, seem like, you know, obsessive compulsion.

PAUL BAIER: Great, two more questions. Great, go ahead.

LOUISE: Hi, I’m Louise [last name deleted] I’m from Wellesley, and I am a member of Voice of the Faithful. I read very eagerly your book ,Richard, on Celibacy in Crisis and it brought up for me all the things that had been bothering me underlying about celibacy as a life choice or whatever. My own opinion is that it, it’s responsible for a lot of this mess that we’re in. My personal opinion is that that’s not, it’s not a loving way to live. There’s one thing that bothers me worse than the issue of enforced celibacy and that is hypocrisy. When you talk about Cardinals and bishops, American Cardinals and bishops having mistresses, which um, and, and, other kinds of friends, [laughter]

TOM DOYLE: Boyfriends.

LOUISE: We all kind of know intuitively that that’s true and we can --

TOM DOYLE: Tell it like it is.

LOUISE: Well, sexual, it’s strikes me, this is my opinion. I’m going to ask a question. My opinion is that if the Church needs to adhere to this barbaric code of celibacy, my own italics, the least they could do is live it. [laughter] So I don’t understand why when they don’t live it they don’t get exposed by people like us. I mean some of us have a clue a little bit about who some of these guys are. and we know that, and I don’t care, I mean, I , I get so infuriated when they start to beat on gay people. “It’s the gay problem.” [applause] It makes me almost insane when I read every day in the paper about you know, Archbishop O’Malley or some other bishop There’s a big controversy here in Boston about same sex marriage, and, and, how dare they, how dare they ask me to listen to them with this foolish blarney. [applause] [cross talk] How dare they tell me what I can and cannot do in bedroom as a married woman. How dare they tell me whether I can you know, use birth control? How dare they tell me what to do with my body, when in the most hypocritical fashion they paint themselves as one thing and do another. It’s almost unbelievable to me, but okay, so there’s my big opinion.

RICHARD SIPE: No, you just wait right there.

LOUISE: Okay, because I have a question.

RICHARD SIPE: And I want to interact with you. I want you to know that that woman has read this book. [laughter]

JASON BERRY: Everybody’s selling today. [laughter]

RICHARD SIPE: And I’m going to ask her right out, did you get something good out of it?

LOUISE: It’s my new Bible.

PAUL BAIER: Look, at your question Louise.

LOUISE: My question is, can we not be public, go public with what we know about these people? I bet everybody on that panel, I’m not putting it on you, but, you know people who know people who know people, and I know people who know people, there is a body of underground knowledge about who’s sexually active, heterosexually, homosexually, any other way you can think of, I mean I don’t care what they do, but if they’re going to tell me what I can and can’t do around my own sexuality, they can jolly well answer to me about theirs. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: There you go, that’s the message.

LOUISE: My question is can we expose them?

RICHARD SIPE: Yes.

LOUISE: How?

RICHARD SIPE: What I’m going to tell you also. You said celibacy was barbaric. Celibacy is not barbaric for those who want to do it, and who want to live it, and who do live it. [applause] What is barbaric, what is barbaric, what is unreasonable, is the Church’s teaching on sexuality. The Church’s teaching on sexuality that all of us know is that every sexual thought, word, desire, and action outside marriage is mortally sinful. And, that every act within marriage, not open to conception is mortally sinful. That is pre-Copernican, you know. I have a son 30 years old. He’s a physician. He’s finishing up at Harvard in his Pediatrics. And, if he had never had a sexual thought, or desire, or action in his life, I’m going to be damned disappointed in my fatherhood. [applause] [laughter] We have to go back to the fundamentals of nature. Grace builds on nature. And, you are absolutely right that it’s the hypocrisy that is the absolute outrage, you know. That we must be honest.

LOUISE: That’s what kills me. It’s the hypocrisy. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: Thank you. Last question and then we have a quick thing on what the reception is afterward so thank you for your patience, Mary.

MARY: My name is Mary [last name deleted] and I’m a Boston supporter of the survivors and the victims. Since the settlements, nothing’s really changed, but there’s been a little bit of a seachange. If you could just give me like one or two directions that I as an individual can go in and support of the victims and survivors.

PAUL BAIER: David, Sue?

SUE ARCHIBALD: Go ahead.

DAVID CLOHESSY: Well two things. First of all, keep saying exactly what you said. The settlement, it’s really critical that people understand that financial settlements are the absolute bare minimum. If I punch Jason Berry in the mouth and years, years, years after pressure from him I agree to pay his medical bills, I don’t deserve sainthood. I don’t deserve praise. You know, I’ve done a violent act and I’ve done the absolute bare minimum to undo a portion of that harm, and that’s all it is, a bare minimum. So, keep saying what you are saying. Remind people that the settlement is simply good sound business practices by the new CEO of the Boston Archdiocese. It does not signify any dramatic change in the culture of the hierarchy at all. Secondly, keep doing exactly what you are doing, you know. We urge people, the only way we believe that any changes come is, is because survivors have had the courage and strength to come forward. So, anything and everything you do to increase the climate that makes that possible is huge. And a huge part of that, we believe, is speaking out publicly. Letters to editor, and calls to these talk shows, and all the sort of thing. Anything that we can do to make it slightly more comfortable for victims to, to make the crucial first call to SNAP to the police, to the prosecutor, that’s what ultimately, we think, will make the difference.

SUE ARCHIBALD: Yes, and I’ll add quickly too that how with a lot of people that we’ve talked to who have gone through settlements, the day after they don’t feel better, they feel worse. Because they hoped to achieve closure and a sense of healing and it just didn’t happen because it was such a re-victimizing process. So, the level of compassion that you gave to the survivors that you knew before the lawsuits, needs to be stepped up one more notch afterward. And another thing to remember to is that there are a lot victims and survivors who will never receive a settlement, and haven’t been part of that process. The ones who haven’t come forward yet and the ones who just aren’t able to go through that through the legal process. So, remember them as well.

BARBARA BLAINE: I would just like to add that there are survivors as you heard who contact SNAP and the Linkup everyday, and by and large, we have no resources to meet their needs. And, we operate on a shoestring budget. Those of us who currently work full-time for our movements, we never know if we are even going to be able to cash our payroll check at the end of the month, literally. And, so I just want you to know that there are no foundations helping survivors or giving big loads of money to us and that we believe in SNAP that that we have to be there for the survivors who are still contacting us. We are trying to make it so that in every diocese, members or survivors will have a place to go and find other survivors, or find support. And, we know are up to 59 cities that we can count where there’s SNAP support groups. But, the rest of the cities, and as you well know there’s many, many more, don’t have anyone. And we have many SNAP leaders who are willing to try to reach out and form SNAP groups in other cities, but it’s like we operate on the shoestring budget, with very little time. And, um, you know, people have their families and their full-time commitments and if we could raise enough money to hire a few more people, we could reach out to the rest of the cities that still don’t have anyone. And, so, I just to flag for you, especially if you happened to know anyone who knows anything about fundraising that can help us raise funds, to please contact us. If you know anyone who makes, who has resources to, to help funnel them into us, just know that survivors out there, that the survivor movement, by enlarge still does not have resources. And, I want to ask each of you to go to our website SNAPnetwork.org please make a donation. Please commit yourself to maybe make it become a sustaining member and donate $10.00 a month or $25.00 a month. Because that’s what mean the world to be able to, for us to be able to meet the needs of survivors. Thanks everyone. [applause]

PAUL BAIER: I couldn’t think of a more fitting set of questions and ending today. Other specific things: There’s been some great initiatives by some VOTF and Catholic groups locally to raise some money. Honey money and other things. Second thing, I have really come to have appreciation for the front-line workers and SNAP who are volunteers and pay for all those long-distance calls out of their budget and everything else. They do have full-time workers and for many survivors, their only lifeline , to hope, is through the front-line work of SNAP, so I think that’s real important. And Linkup, as well, important way to contribute.

Just to wrap this up, you’ll see on your way out, specific volunteer opportunities we are looking for on BishopAccountability.org as well. We have an event coming up February 21st, on building service records. And, after this, we are going to, a reception, which is in the cafeteria, which is down. The cafeteria is down. All the speakers will be there, so you’ll get a chance to, meet with them in person. There was one question on Vatican emails, , that someone asked me in the audience, I actually don’t know, I know we’ve looked in the past, the Vatican tends not to have emails. But, they do have, do have postal addresses and faxes and we’ll make sure those get on Bishop-Accountability.org.

DAVID CLOHESSY: Paul, you can reach a lot of them through coverup.org. [laughter]

PAUL BAIER: Let’s give a round of thanks for our panelists here. [applause]

TOM DOYLE: Before we all go, let’s thank Paul who made this happen. [applause]

[End of Recording]