MEET THE PRESS TRANSCRIPT: March 9, 2014

By David Gregory
NBC News - MeetPress
March 09, 2014

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-march-9-2014-n48396

BY DAVID GREGORY March 9, 2014

DAVID GREGORY:

And good Sunday morning. Such a difficult way to begin the program this morning. More on the investigation into the mysterious disappearance of that plane and the questions about foul play, given that two passengers were traveling on stolen passports, a pretty rare occurrence. And the new reports that the plane may have tried to turn around. ...

DAVID GREGORY:

Welcome back. What a year it has been for Pope Francis, as he approaches his one-year anniversary as leader of the Catholic Church. The pope created some controversy a few days ago when he said no one has done more than the Vatican to address the abuse scandals that have plagued the Church for years. He also said the portrayal of him as some sort of superman, a star, is offensive. I sat down with the archbishop of New York, Timothy Dolan. In his revealing interview, he spoke his mind about the pope, the abuse scandals and same-sex marriage

DAVID GREGORY:

Your eminence, thank you for having us to your home.

CARDINAL DOLAN:

David, you're always welcome here. Thanks for--

DAVID GREGORY:

Thank you--

CARDINAL DOLAN:

--thanks for-- taking me seriously when I said, "Come on in." (LAUGH)

DAVID GREGORY:

We're here. And what a year it's been for the Catholic church and Pope Francis. What a reception. One year later, Pope Francis giving an interview this week saying, "Look, it's been a great reception (LAUGH), but I'm not superman." He almost found it offensive. Yet, at the same time, that reception is certainly something he'd like to use for the benefit of the church, wouldn't he?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Oh, he's a good teacher, so you're right. He knows the power symbol. He knows the power of audio-visual aids, as any good teacher does. So I think he's shrugging' and saying', "Look, I'm no better than anybody else. And don't make me a superman. But if this attention is comin' my way, I'm gonna use it and turn the attention to Jesus and his church." And I think he's doing' a splendid job of it.

DAVID GREGORY:

It's not just the faithful, but it's also the Pope as a political influence around the world, and indeed in America. And I'm curious to know what the agenda is for him. Now that he's had his first year, where he'd like to dig in and have that influence.

There has been some criticism coming his way where he might say things that stir the masses worldwide-- begging questions about what he means, and then there's a clarification. Is there a plan of action to that? Would he like to get some of these debates, particularly over social matters, started?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

I think he would. And once again, I think that might be part of his shrewd strategy. You know, if he asks some pointed questions, if he leans people wondering and guessing, that's not bad. A good teacher does that too. We've all had good teachers that almost tease us, you know, to say, "Oh, I wonder what he meant. I hope he comes back to that. I hope he clarifies, gets us asking' questions and probing." I think that's part of his strategy.

DAVID GREGORY:

But conservatives in America, some of the headlines, conservative U.S. Catholics feel left out by the Pope's embrace. Traditionalists increasingly fret over the Pope's style. One conservative commentator I read said that "The Pope is sowing seeds of confusion among the faithful." Take the issue of gay rights-- around the world. He even opened the door in an interview this week to the idea of accepting civil unions. Is that something you can see the church supporting?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

He-- I-- for one, I haven't sensed that-- too much-- bristling among-- the conservatives. They honestly will say, "His style is a little different and might-- periodically cause us a little angst," but in general they too seem to be rejoicing in what you might call the evangelical fervor, the good interest in the life of the church.

So I haven't sensed a lot of massive discontent among-- among the conservative-- Catholics. He, as you know, Pope-- Pope Francis has tried his best not to let there be a cleavage between him and Pope Benedict because there might be the tendency in some to caric-- caricature each of them and almost set up-- a bit of-- of an antithesis.

And he keeps saying how much he loves Pope Benedict. He quotes from him. I think he's a shrewd man. He knows, David-- you know what his name is, Pontiff, that's what we Catholics call our Pope, which is the Latin word for bridge builder. And he's a Pontiff par excellence, a bridge builder.

DAVID GREGORY:

Will there be a point at which there will be an expectation of action, not just debate, not just teaching, but to say he seems to be setting a course for the church that makes the church open to certain changes. Maybe not doctrinal changes, but certain changes, inclusion of women in-- in the hierarchy of the church, changes with regard to the view of divorce and taking communion-- and even gay rights?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Uh-huh (AFFIRM). There are some who have said that, you are right. There are some, even his admirers, who have said, "Holy father, be careful." You know, there almost seems to be this huge sense of expectation among Catholics, and we're a little worried that their hopes might be dashed.

I think, though, we've got a Pope, David, that-- that does not think in terms of winning or losing. I think we've got a Pope-- that says, "I want to-- ask the right questions. I wanna point people to the place where they can get the answers, mainly not me," the Pope is saying', "but the church's teaching, our tradition, the bible, what god has told us. Let me point them to that. Let me ask the questions. Let me get the interest going. And let's-- and then let's try to revive god's people to passionately reclaim the truth that god has revealed." I think this is his pastoral strategy.

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Do you imagine the church might open the way to accepting civil unions?

DAVID GREGORY:

He mentioned-- I haven't see-- I'm-- I'm as eager as you are to-- read the-- the full extent of that interview. And if I saw the reports accurately, they-- he didn't come right out and say he was for them. Once again, in an extraordinarily-- sincere, open, nuanced way, he said, "I know that some people in some states have chosen this. We need to think about that and look into it and see the reasons that have driven them."

It wasn't as if he came out and approved them. But he-- he just in-- in a sensitivity that has won the heart of the world, he said, "Rather than quickly condemn them, let's see if-- let's-- let's just ask the questions as to why that has appealed to certain people--"

DAVID GREGORY:

Would that make you uncomfortable?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

The-- what, the civil unions?

DAVID GREGORY:

Yeah.

CARDINAL DOLAN:

I-- it would. It would, in a way, David. Because I don't think-- marriage, between-- one man and one woman forever leading to life and love, that's not something that's just a religious, sacramental concern. You bet it is that, and-- and we-- that's how god has elevated it, to making a sacrament.

But it's also the building block of society and culture. So it belongs to culture. And if-- and if we water down that sacred meaning of marriage in any way, I worry that not only the church would suffer, I worry that culture and society would.

DAVID GREGORY:

The issue of sexual abuse within the Catholic church is still a big issue. And the Pope was outspoken during this interview this week with an Italian newspaper. He said, "The Catholic church is perhaps the only public institution that has moved with transparency and responsibly. No one has done more. And yet the church is the only one to have been attacked."

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Right.

DAVID GREGORY:

Now, a lot of people sense that was defensive, because, of course, it was also the church that was responsible for covering up this sin, for hiding priests, for failing to report, for introducing priests with a past of pedophilia into parishes around-- this country-- among others. Was that overly defensive?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

I don't think you'll--

DAVID GREGORY:

Does the church have to do more?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

No-- oh, the church will always have to do more as-- as humanity has to do more. And we're-- we're a part of humanity here. But boy, I was cheering' the Pope on when he said that. You'll find, David-- look, I'm-- I'm with the people a lot.

Catholic people, there are three things that really tick them off about the sex abuse crisis. First of all, that a priest that would dare claim to be an agent of god would act in such a nauseating, hi-- hideous manner. There's number one.

Number two, that bishops would have-- would have not-- reacted with the rigor and the-- and the-- the scrupulous action that was necessary. There's the second. But thirdly, Catholic people say, "But why is it the church alone that is being kicked around? This is a societal problem, a cultural problem. It-- it-- it aff-- it afflicts families, every institution, every religion." "We're rather grateful that our church, which was-- an example of what not to do in the past, in the last-- 12, 13, 14 years has become an example of what to do--"

DAVID GREGORY:

But in the '50s--

CARDINAL DOLAN:

"And why does the church keep being picked on?" I was glad the Pope said that. I think he's right on target.

DAVID GREGORY:

But in the '50s and '60s, child abuse claims were actually being investigated and-- and prosecuted when, at the same time, this was happening in the Catholic chu-- church-- was-- was hiding it. The power of symbol here is to meet with victims. The pope has not done that. Should he do that?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

He probably will. I would not be surprised if he-- if he would not. I hope he does. Lord knows-- I have, and lord knows-- I think most bishops and pastors have. So-- Benedict did. So I would anticipate he would as well.

DAVID GREGORY:

The other area of-- of great potential influence is thinking about capitalism in the world. He'll meet with President Obama. And it's interesting that-- in this regard, the Pope and the president have been speaking about income and equality-- in the world. The president focused primarily in America. There are conservatives in America who say, "No, no, there's not an income and equality problem. There's an opportunity and equality problem here." Commentator Rush Limbaugh even calling the Pope a Marxist. How does he respond to that? How do you respond?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Well, he responded very charitably as is-- as we've come to know and love in him. I don't know if I'd have that much charity. I think that was terrible hyperbole to refer to the Pope as-- as Marxist, and-- and very inaccurate. What we try to do, David, and-- the-- the Catholic wisdom is always right smack down the middle. We use the two Latin words, via media, right down the middle. We're always concerned about excesses on the left, which is collectivism, socialism, communism, and excesses on the right, which is unfettered, cut-- cut-throat capitalism.

Somewhere in between is the via media, which will come to a fair, equitable, just, economic system. Different points have corrected either side. John Paul, as you might imagine, coming' from what he did, he was a bit more sensitive to the excesses on the left. Francis, he's a bit more sensitive about the excesses to the right.

But that's fine. I think they're both-- they're both-- pointing' us to a balance, a via media, a prudential way that allows us-- allows freedom in the marketplace, economic prosperity, people to take care of themselves and their-- and their families, but yet protects the rights of the poor, and those without.

Somewhere in between those two there's the answer. He's shrewd enough to know I'm not an economist. My job is the preach the gospel, biblical values, and to be a prophet calling people somewhere between those two excesses. And once again, I think he's doing' a masterful job.

DAVID GREGORY:

In our politics now the culture wars are raging in different ways, whether it's about contraception, abortion, gay rights. And we've seen it come to a head in Arizona recently where there was a debate about-- whether the-- the government-- can force-- a non-religious corporation-- to-- to-- acknowledge-- certain rights-- even if they have different views religiously. Where do you stand on that, on this question of the balance between civil liberties and freedom of religion? Do you think there's an imbalance in our country right now?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

I'm-- yes, I'm afraid there may be. We may be coming to that. Now keep in mind, the distinction is a false one, right, as you'd be the first to know, because high among those civil rights would be freedom of religion. So once again, we gotta achieve this balance.

Now, what we've heard-- what we've heard, David, in the-- in the recent rush to what you might call more liberal-- liberalizing laws on social issues, whether that be abortion, whether that be redefinition of marriage, you will hear the people immediately say, "Don't worry, we will never impede religions from the complete freedom that they need to exercise-- their faith, and even bring their values into the public square. So don't worry. We're not going to impede you. We're not going to intrude."

We hold our breath and say, "We're afraid we've learned the-- the hard way." What becomes tolerated si-- quickly becomes obligatory for everybody. And then we feel frozen out. Whether that's happened yet, I wouldn't go that far. But I would have to admit a certain amount of-- of trepidation, that perhaps we're now moving in that direction.

DAVID GREGORY:

Michael Sam, from your home state, the football player-- revealed that he was gay, first in the NFL. And you saw the celebration from the President, the First Lady, and they were saying what a courageous step that was. How did you view it?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Good for him. I would have no-- no sense of judgment on him. God bless ya. I don't think-- look, the same-- the same bible that tells us that-- that-- teaches us well about the virtues of chastity and-- and the virtue of fidelity and marriage also tells us not to judge people. So I would say, "Bravo."

DAVID GREGORY:

On the issue of same-sex marriage, you said the last time we spoke that you felt the church was being out-marketed. Do you feel that it is-- that views are changing so rapidly that church is going to-- is going to feel the power of that change, it must change if it's going to-- to keep people seeking god through the church?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Here-- you-- you ask-- you ask a good question, and you phrased it well. When you say-- seeking god and the church, when people seek god, they wanna know what god has taught, all right. And the church's sacred enterprise is not to conform its teaching to the values of the world, all right, as rapidly as they're changing.

The church's sacred task is to call us to conform our behavior to what god has revealed. Now that is tough, especially when the tide of public opinion is against us. But it's against us in a lot of areas-- David, as you will know. You're right. From the-- from the more left side of society, we may be takin' some-- sucker punches because of our views on the redefinition of marriage and the sacredness of human life in the womb. We're takin' it from the other side when it comes to immigration, when it comes to capital punishment, when it comes to the rights of the poor.

And the church more or less shrugs and say, "Look, we don't take our agenda from the polls. We don't take our agenda from what the world is saying. Our agenda is given to us by the god who made us, and we must be faithful to him instead of what we're-- what we're hearing' from the world."

That having been said, a shrewd pastor, and we sure got one in Pope Francis, will know, yeah, but one of the ways we-- we more effectively pass on god's teaching (NOISE) and god's revelation is by being somewhat sensitive to what the world is saying, what the world is feeling.

And so Francis is reminding us, look, if we come across as some crabby, nay-- nay saying shrill, we're not gonna win anybody. If we come across as a loving, embracing-- mother, holy mother church who says, "Come on in. We love you. We need you. We want you. And once you get to know us, then maybe we can invite you to the conversion of heart that is at the-- is at the core of the gospel. And then maybe we can talk about changing behavior. That's a very effective pedagogy.

DAVID GREGORY:

Final question. Beyond this first year, what most-- must this Pope do to help the Catholic church remain relevant, particularly in America and throughout North America at a time when there is a big secular push around the world? What must he do?

CARDINAL DOLAN:

What he's gotta do, David, and he knows it, and he's off to a good start, okay, his first year has been good-- he's got to restore the luster of the church. See, for us as Catholics, what-- our core belief and where we differ from others is that we believe that god has revealed himself in Jesus, and that Jesus remains alive in his church, okay?

People today say, "Hey, we like god and Jesus, we don't need the church." For us as Catholic, we're saying', "Uh oh, that's-- that's not how we understand god's design." Pope Francis is saying', "We've got to restore the luster, the appeal, the intrigue, the mystery, the romance, the invitation to the church." And he's doing' it on steroids. And that's his major agenda, I think."

DAVID GREGORY:

Your eminence, I-- I always enjoy talking to you--

CARDINAL DOLAN:

Thank you. Thanks--

DAVID GREGORY:

Thank you for your time--

CARDINAL DOLAN:

--happy Saint Patrick's Day. (LAUGHTER)