Pope Talks to Clar about a “gay Lobby” and Corruption in the Vatican
By Andrea Tornielli
In the Curia…there are holy people,” but there is also "a current of corruption", Pope Francis allegedly told the leadership of the Latin American Conference of Religious (CLAR) in a private audience in the Apostolic Palace library on 6 June. A Chilean website published a partial account of the conversation. According to the Latin American religious, the Pope also talked about a “gay lobby” existing in the Vatican: “The "gay lobby" is mentioned, and it is true, it is there... We need to see what we can do...,” the Pope was quoted saying. The director of the Holy See Press Office, Fr. Federico Lombardi said he had “no statement to make on the proceedings or on the content of the conversation” the content of which was not therefore recorded or transcribed. According to CLAR’s leaders, Francis apparently encouraged the Conference’s members to “keep moving forward” and not be afraid to take risks by approaching the poor and new emerging figures across the continent. “Perhaps even a letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine (of the Faith) will arrive for you, telling you that you said such or such thing... But do not worry. Explain whatever you have to explain, but move forward... Open the doors, do something there where life calls for it. I would rather have a Church that makes mistakes for doing something than one that gets sick for being closed up...,” the Pope was quoted saying. According to CLAR, the Pope also spoke about his election: “I did not lose my peace [of mind - no perdi la paz] at any moment, you know? And this is not from myself, I am of the kind that gets worried, that gets upset... But I did not lose my peace at any moment. This confirms to me that this comes from God...” About his gestures and his decision to live in St. Martha’s House, Francis apparently said: “I do it because I felt this was what the Lord wanted. But these gestures are not mine, there is Someone else here...” “I came [to Rome] only with the necessary clothes, I washed them at night, and suddenly this... And I did not have any chance! In the London betting houses I was in 44th place, look at that, the one who bet on me won a lot, of course...! This does not come from me...” After reiterating that the death of a homeless person does not make headlines as a 10-point drop in the stock markets, he mentioned abortion: It is necessary to go to the causes, to the roots. “Abortion is bad, but that is clear. But behind the approval of this law, what interests are behind it... they are at times the conditions posed by the great organizations to support with money, you know that? It is necessary to go to the causes, we cannot remain only in the symptoms. Do not be afraid to denounce... you will suffer, you will have problems, but do not be afraid to denounce, that is the prophecy of religious life...,” the Pope was quoted saying. According to the transcript of the conversation, Francis then apparently shared two “concerns” with CLAR’s religious. “One is the Pelagian current that there is in the Church at this moment. There are some restorationist groups. I know some, it fell upon me to receive them in Buenos Aires. And one feels as if one goes back 60 years! Before the Council... One feels in 1940...” The Pope is then said to have illustrated this with a joke: “when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: "Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries." Why don't they say, 'we pray for you, we ask...', but this thing of counting...” This reference to the Pelagianism of the more traditionalist currents seems to echo the words which the then cardinal Joseph Ratzinger used during the Spiritual Exercises of 1986 (in the book “Guardare Cristo: esempi di fede, speranza e carita” [Looking at Christ: Examples of faith, hope and charity]; published by Jaka Book): “the other face of the same vice is the Pelagianism of the pious. They do not want forgiveness and in general they do not want any real gift from God either. They just want to be in order. They don’t want hope they just want security. Their aim is to gain the right to salvation through a strict practice of religious exercises, through prayers and action. What they lack is humility which is essential in order to love; the humility to receive gifts not just because we deserve it or because of how we act…” Francis’ second concern was to do with “a Gnostic current.” “Those Pantheisms... Both are elite currents, but this one is of a more educated elite... I heard of a superior general that prompted the sisters of her congregation to not pray in the morning, but to spiritually bathe in the cosmos, things like that... They concern me because they ignore the incarnation! And the Son of God became our flesh, the Word was made flesh, and in Latin America we have flesh abundantly [de tirar al techo]! What happens to the poor, their pains, this is our flesh...” The Pope alluded to the holiness of a number of Curia members, to the existence of a “stream of corruption” and to the existence of a "gay lobby" in the Vatican – a subject which had been discussed in cardinals’ congregations before the last conclave and could have been included in the Commission of Cardinals’ famous report on the Vatileaks case. Francis also confirmed that “the reform of the Roman Curia is something that almost all Cardinals asked for in the Congregations preceding the Conclave. I also asked for it.” “I cannot promote the reform myself, these matters of administration... I am very disorganized, I have never been good at this. But the cardinals of the Commission (made up of 8 cardinals selected for the task, Ed.) will move it forward. Pray for me... that I make mistakes the least possible...,” the Pope said, according to CLAR.Francis then spoke about the 5th General Conference of the Latin American Episcopate, held in the Marian shrine of Aparecida, Brazil, in 2007 (the Pope is due to visit the shrine when he goes to Brazil for the World Youth Day this summer): “What Aparecida had that was special was that it was not celebrated in a hotel, nor in a retreat house... it was celebrated in a Marian shrine. During the week, we celebrated the Eucharist and there were some 250 people, because it was a regular workday. But on the weekends, it was full....! The people of God joined the Bishops, asking for the Holy Spirit…” The Pope then quoted the Prefect of the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, Joao Braz de Aviz who was one of Brazil’s bishops at the time: “I saw the Prefect, Joao who went out with his mitre, and people got close to him, and they brought the children near, and he greeted them, and hugged them like this... This same bishop then voted (on the content of the final document produced during the meeting, Ed.) He could not have voted the same way as if he had been in a hotel!” “Enjoy this moment that we live in the Congregation for Consecrated Life... It is a moment of sunshine... Enjoy. The Prefect [Cardinal Aviz] is good. And the Secretary [Abp. Rodriguez Carballo, OFM], that was "lobbied" by you! No, really, being the president of USG [Union of Superiors General], the logical thing was that it would be him!” the Pope added, referring to Franciscan leader Fr. Jose Rodriguez Carballo, who was recently appointed archbishop and as the dicastery’s number two man. Francis encouraged CLAR’s religious to converse with bishops, with bishops’ conferences and with CELAM (the Latin American Episcopal Conference). Finally, he expressed his concern about the fact that “there are religious congregations, very, very small groups; a few people, [who tend to be] very old...” which “don’t have vocations, that I know, [whether] the Holy Spirit doesn't want them to continue, maybe they've finished their mission in the church, I don't know.... But there they are, clinging to their buildings, clinging to money.... I don't know why this happens, I don't know how to read it. But I ask you to be worried about these groups... The handling of money... is something that needs to be reflected on.”
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