Interview with Detective Chief Inspector Peter Fox

By Emma Alberici
ABC - Lateline
November 12, 2012

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3631264.htm

[with video]

Interview with the policeman who helped trigger the Government's plan for a Royal Commission into the abuse of children in the nation's institutions.

Transcript

EMMA ALBERICI, PRESENTER: We're joined now by Detective Chief Inspector Peter Fox, the senior police officer who took a stand on the issue and called for a royal commission here on Lateline last week.

It was on this program that Inspector Fox first made the allegations that his investigations were hindered by interference from within the police force and within the Catholic Church.

Detective Fox has driven from Newcastle tonight to be with us again, and I thank you so much chief inspector Fox for coming in again.

PETER FOX, NSW POLICE: It's a pleasure, Emma.

EMMA ALBERICI: Now of course as we just mentioned, you were the one calling for this royal commission last week. You must be feeling quite vindicated.

PETER FOX: I don't think I was the only one. I just wanted to add my voice to the many thousands out there that were already calling out for it over the last decade and more. You know, when you've sat down with these people, I just don't feel that you can turn up and walk away and think, "Well, I've got so much knowledge about what's gone on," and walk off and have an easy conscience thinking, "I could have done more, but I didn't."

I've made the comment that the turning moment for me was a forum at Newcastle where Peter Fitzsimmons, the radio DJ from down here, made the comment, "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing." And I sort of felt that perhaps he was directly talking to me. And I thought, "Well I'm not prepared to sit back and keep my mouth zipped."

EMMA ALBERICI: Now it took obviously so much courage for you to come here and talk as candidly as you did last week. What's the reaction been from within your own police ranks?

PETER FOX: Mixed, I think as most people would expect. I have been inundated with fantastic calls from ex-police and current colleagues that are thrilled to bits with this happening. I've had calls from some police that I don't know, wanting to share their frustrations and stories with me.

Conversely there's also been the uglier side of it where - I don't want to go into it too deeply, but this is the end of my policing career. I realised that from the moment that I decided to speak out last week. As much as it's denied, the culture within the police force would never allow someone like me to move back into it. So, I've ...

EMMA ALBERICI: What do you mean, the culture?

PETER FOX: Ah, you know, I think the Wood Royal Commission uncovered it years ago and I'm sorry to say that very little has changed. And ostracisation and things of that nature continue to go on within the police force.

I think if anyone has followed the history of it all, whether it be Tim Priest or Glen McNamara, many others that have spoken out of turn, the police force isn't accepting of that. They might smile and say they are. But, you know, Emma, that's not the point. I'm getting towards the end of my career anyway, 35 years.

EMMA ALBERICI: But the rest of us in society want to be encouraged by the idea that others like you will also see fit to speak publicly and tell it as it is.

PETER FOX: Well I hope so, and, you know, don't get me wrong: I'm not bitter with the police force. They're a minority, those individuals, but they exist everywhere, whether it's the police force or wherever else in society that they may be.

We'll probably unfortunately never change that. If any of my grandkids ask, "Pop, what do you think if I join the police force?" I will encourage them right up to the hilts. Because it's been a wonderful job. I've met some wonderful people. I've been able to make changes and do things.

EMMA ALBERICI: I have to say that I've heard from a policeman I spoke to myself over the weekend that among those in the police you're considered mentally unstable.

PETER FOX: Yes, a couple of people have rung me up. I'm trying to hold myself still with all that going on, but I am aware of a fair bit of mischief going on behind the scenes. And that was expected, Emma. Like, I'm a big boy. I knew that was coming. That's what happens when you speak out of line.

And it's just very sad that I've had some terrible things occur to my family and I over my stance on another matter and the church matter over the last six to 12 months, from threatening letters on police letterheads to myself. My wife suffered a complete nervous breakdown after she was sent one of those threatening letters.

EMMA ALBERICI: Who sent the threatening letter?

PETER FOX: We don't know. Obviously some disgruntled police officer somewhere in the job that was unhappy with the stance I was taking. You know, that's the way it is. As I said, I made the decision that I need to speak out once that happened because I'm not prepared to sit back and see my family tormented in that way.

And my wife's listened to my stories. I've investigated murders - you name it. And she shared all that with me over many years. I remember the night of my daughter's seventh birthday where I should have been hosting the party and I was at a murder in the Watagan Mountains of a mother and two children.

So, my wife has shared all that over the years and been a fantastic support for me. And when I start to see her being harmed in the way that she was being harmed, I've got to make a decision what's better for me. I love my career in the police force, but am I prepared to subject myself to more of that? No.

But I don't want it to be focused on that. I suppose the good news for the day is that we've seen a wonderful result so far as the announcement that was made today on the royal commission.

EMMA ALBERICI: Is it in your view a lack of will on the part of police? Is it not enough resources? Or is it the lack of cooperation by the Catholic Church that hinders these investigations?

PETER FOX: I think there's a mixture. Personally I think it's a mixed component. Resources are always a big issue when you start to get to management level. I know, I've sat in there myself. I know sometimes you're very stretched. It's a case of priorities; what comes first when you've only got so many to share around and you've got to make those difficult decisions.

You know, there's a lot of pressure that does come down from the top and some of that's political, some of that's from within the upper echelons of the police force. You need to make those tough decisions.

But, you know, I said last week to Tony that I have been outspoken and a lot of police that know me will say exactly that: I've gone out on a limb a few times. A lot of police hate me for that. A lot of police love me for it. It's like anywhere else in society: there will be the good and bad. The police force is no different. We're a real example of the cross-section of society. It doesn't change when you join the police. But, you know, all you can do is strive to do what's right as much as you can.

EMMA ALBERICI: Where do you think the royal commission's focus should be?

PETER FOX: A number of areas. I think that it needs to look at a lot of areas of law that need to have been changed and we should get those right right across the country, not just in each state. We need to focus on things such as: should priests that are telling other priests in confessionals be allowed to keep the fact that they're abusing children - they'll come back two days later and, "Listen, I got to confess again. I've just done this to four more girls." And that priest knows he's going to come in again in three days' time and confess to some more.

So, we need to get laws to stop that happening and to compel those priests that are hearing those confessions to say, "Listen, God doesn't want this man to commit more crimes. He wants me to come and tell the police to stop him." That's ...

EMMA ALBERICI: But it's been longstanding, hasn't it, that even if they confess to murder in the confessional - it's been a long-standing issue, hasn't it?

PETER FOX: Um, perhaps they're antiquated rules where society in the Middle Ages bowed to the will of the Church. You know, I heard George Pell say earlier today is that he's basically capitulated to this royal commission on the basis that the media has all been one-sided. I've listened to the arguments for the last 10 years. It certainly has been one-sided because it seems to be the Church that has been continually screaming out the message that we don't need a royal commission, "There's nothing going on here. Move along."

We've had enough from that one side, Mr Pell. Now we're going to start listening to the victims and start listening to their families and we're going to start doing something about the problem. The big problem is that denial, when you're not prepared to sit down and actually start to acknowledge that there's a problem and look at ways of fixing it.

There was a very prominent cardinal in Rome unfortunately that has recently passed away that Mr Pell would've known, Cardinal Martini, who just recently came out and I think in August and made a comment about, "We need to make radical change within the Catholic Church on how we are dealing with paedophilia and priests."

And he then went on to point out, he said, "We have wonderful big churches, we've got wonderful places of worship and they're ordained with jewels and they're all empty." They need to start asking why are they empty? Because if you can't change, that's not going to change. If the Church really is genuine, they need to stop making the comments that Cardinal Pell made today.

If he can't stop moving them - saying those comments, move along and let someone else come in that is a little bit more conciliatory, that has got more of a compassion, an open ear. The way Cardinal Pell treated the foster family in Melbourne whose two daughters suicided after abuse was nothing short of disgraceful.

I think he needs to have a real hard look in the mirror and go back and say, "Why did I want to become a priest? Somehow I've got into this position now where it seems to be all about how much money can I save through the compensation schemes? How can I protect the reputation of the Church? How can I protect this priest that I used to go through the seminary with?"

That doesn't matter. It should be: "How can I protect these little children? How can I look after these victims? How can I care for them and give them compensation and help them get over the trauma?" That's where we should be looking. So I'm hoping that the royal commission will do some of that.

In addition to that, you know, other areas we need to look at - and again, if I can use Mr Pell as an example: the Fosters and others in 1997 pleaded with him to remove five other priests that were involved in, or believed at that stage to be involved in paedophilia, away from being in schools and contact with young children. And his comment to them on that occasion was, "It's all gossip until it's proven in court."

Now, I arrested Jim Fletcher in 2002 and I went to the bishop at Newcastle, Michael Malone, and I asked him to remove the priest from the school, saying, "He will eventually be charged. I just haven't got enough yet." The response I got is, "He's innocent until proven guilty." Jeez, it sounds very, very regimented.

EMMA ALBERICI: The brother who was arrested this evening, we know he's been in the Blacktown community as a community leader for the past 18 months when the bishop knew.

PETER FOX: I don't think anyone's naive to what's going on and, you know, people are smarter than that in this day and age. You know, social media, everything else, it's all getting around and I think most people are wise enough to make their own determination. But there's so much good that can come out of this.

I don't want to be heavily critical. I'm aware of some wonderful, wonderful priests that are out there. And during the Wood Royal Commission detectives like myself probably walked around with our heads down seeing the scandal that was going on down in Sydney. That's probably given me some empathy for a lot of the good priests out there because at the moment they're ashamed to walk out with that collar around their neck.

A lot of them are damn good people. I've spoken to some of them. And some of the younger ones especially. They've confided in me how frustrated they are with the old boys' club that exists. That they're not allowed to speak out of turn or to make changes. And I think that's what Cardinal Martini was talking about: we need to move the old faction on and get some of this young blood in there and let's start afresh.

EMMA ALBERICI: Chief Inspector Peter Fox, thanks so much for coming in again. We really appreciate it.

PETER FOX: Thank you, Emma.