Is It the Vatican That Is in Schism with Vatican Ii?
Catholica
Matthew Fox: Yes, absolutely. A council can trump a pope. A pope can't trump a council. That's good theology. What is clear is that these last two popes have broken with every major position the council authorized, including the power of national episcopacies to choose their own bishops, the role of the laity, ecumenism, the renewal of the liturgy, and the movement toward social justice. The Vatican is in schism. Catholics faithful to principles of the Council are not in schism. Mark Day: You compare today's church's hierarchy and the Vatican to a "burning building." You urge people to salvage only the essentials. What are they? Matthew Fox: The greatest treasure the church is good people: Fr. Bede Griffiths, Dorothy Day, Meister Eckhart, Julian of Norwich, and so on. We don't need to travel with basilicas on our backs. We only need are backpacks. The mystics and the prophets—how they did it with their practices and theologies—all this is really worth keeping. We need to preserve the teachings on the sacramentality of the universe, the wisdom tradition from which Jesus comes. And, of course, the tradition of the divine feminine. It is still present In Catholicism because it is pre-modern. The church did not throw out the goddess—but adopted her as the Mary principle. Mark Day: You make a strong point in The Pope's War about corruption in the church. Matthew Fox: There is really a three legged stool of church corruption: the first is sexual abuse and cover up. The second is financial corruption, and the third is the "theological-ideological." All of this is interwoven. It's ideological, because it's all about dualisms such as the secular versus the Christian. That's where you get the fixation on birth control, homophobia, and celibacy. It's all about sex. This also feeds Protestant fundamentalism. The two ideologies are buddy-buddy. Mark Day: You don't believe the Vatican is capable of reform? Matthew Fox: Obviously, it can't be reformed. I'm looking at it theologically. I believe the Holy Spirit is behind the movement to kill the Vatican as we know it—to kill the structure of the Catholic Church, to bury it, so we can start over. It's about pushing the restart button. Just look at the right wing religious sects favored by the last two popes: Opus Dei, Communion and Liberation, and the Legionaries of Christ. No, the Vatican is not reformable. It's a boy's club, a bully's club. Mark Day: What role does sexism play in the church? Matthew Fox: Sexism is entrenched and institutionalized in the church. We know that feminine leadership in the early church was everywhere. Even St. Paul, who is not an enlightened male, is explicit about the role of women in the early church. And of course, the role of Mary Magdelene has been rediscovered. She belongs to the wing of the church who took on healing. Mary Magdalene is the mother of the sacramental tradition in the church. Yet she has been described as a whore. Mark Day: How does the Vatican relate to U.S. politics? Matthew Fox: Well, I believe George W. Bush's re-election in 2004 was due, in great part, to pressures from Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II. In June, Bush went to the Vatican and said, "Hey, I'm against gays and I'm against abortion, and I deserve more support from the American Catholic bishops." A week later, Ratzinger instructed the bishops that no Catholic politician (namely Kerry) should be supported who is not explicitly against abortion and gays. A study later showed that this heavily influenced the pro-Bush vote in Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico. Yet, nobody really denounced this intervention from a foreign power. It's shocking. Once again, it's about denial. Mark Day: You have said at that at the highest levels our government have come under the influence of Opus Dei, an extreme right wing Catholic sect that demands absolute obedience from its members.
Matthew Fox: Yes, it's widely known that Supreme Court Justices Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito, and Clarence Thomas belong to Opus Dei—and that Justice Thomas Roberts may also be a member. Another Opus Dei member, former CIA director William Casey, gave millions of dollars to the Vatican and to the ultra-conservative Legionaries of Christ. Also, Daniel Ellsberg recently told me that some of the ranking commanders of our military are also Opus Dei. And what can we say about a whole new crop of right wing Catholic politicians such as Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum? Mark Day: Has Pope Benedict XVI, replaced Christian spirituality with fascism? Matthew Fox: Yes, absolutely. A German woman who translated my book told me she cried while reading it. She said, "As far as fascism is concerned, my generation was promised, never again. But your book proves that fascism is back, and it is back through the German wing of the church." Mark Day: Is it true that the Vatican often relies on questionable sources when issuing a condemnation of Catholic theologians and thinkers? Matthew Fox: Oh, yes. In my case the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith ignored the findings of three Dominican theologians who vetted my work and found nothing wrong with it. They gave more credence to gossip from non-reliable sources. They listened to all these right wing freaks that send them emails and faxes. They never examined their credentials, and most of them don't have credentials. Mark Day: Have these last two popes undermined the possibility of selecting progressive church leadership in the future? Matthew Fox: Yes they have. It's like stacking the Supreme Court. But remember, they are in schism. And don't forget, all these cardinals, archbishops and priests, are also in schism. It means that any Catholic who is trying to live out the principles of Vatican II and the Gospel, is not in schism. Mark Day: Why don't more Catholics complain about this? Matthew Fox: Well, that's what the media, what television does. It numbs people. But it is also denial. In the new paperback edition of my book, I quote Meister Eckhart who said, "God is the denial of denial." To me that is a very powerful line. Until we can get over denial, the Spirit cannot flow again. Catholics need to quite hiding behind the pews, behind the religious orders. Mark Day: Do you think Catholic reform groups like Call to Action, Future Church and others are growing, or are people simply leaving the church? Matthew Fox: I recently attended a national convention in Detroit [The American Catholic Council]. It was sad to see that there was practically no one there younger than 50. I've had young people with newborn babies ask me how they should raise their kids since they don't want anything more to do with the Catholic Church. The future of the church is with the young, and the young are not showing up in church, perhaps with the exception of Hispanics. Mark Day: What are your thoughts on the Vatican's newly created ordinariate to accept married Anglican clergy as valid Roman Catholic priests? Matthew Fox: They welcome these Episcopal priests as long as they can prove they are homophobic and sexist. Don't forget that the pope also welcomed back a schismatic bishop who proved himself a fascist and a denier of the Holocaust. It's really endless. None of this has anything to do with Jesus. Mark Day: One of Pope Benedict XVI's main goals was to restore Christendom, or the church's influence in Western Europe. Did the worldwide sexual abuse crisis derail that project? Matthew Fox: Absolutely. Even in Poland. A poll taken there showed that only three percent of Poland's population trust the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy. The pope's former secretary, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz, the primate of Warsaw, is now being accused of meddling in the affairs of the Polish government. This is the same man who was accustomed to charge $50,000 to anyone who requested a private Mass with the Pope in the Vatican. Mark Day: Why are the mainline churches losing so many members, while the mega churches keep growing?
Matthew Fox: Well, that's a sign that the whole thing needs shaking up. The Catholic problem is corruption at the top, and the Protestant problem is apathy. This allows the fundamentalists to hijack the name of Jesus. Too many people are falling asleep in the pews. They need to dance instead. We use video, dancing and different forms of expression in our "Cosmic Masses". Mark Day: How does the average churchgoer relate to these Masses, with video screens, dancing and rap sessions? Isn't this going from one extreme to the other? Matthew Fox: Bringing rave and rap and new forms of language into worship is very effective. It's a way to make worship relevant for the young and also to wake up the older ones to think and to mediate. It really works. The Eucharist is beautiful, but it needs to be put into a new setting. You don't need prayers read to you—they need to come from your heart. And this is what happens when you dance. It's also pre-modern—it goes back to indigenous worship which involves the body. I'm all for a wide variety of worship—but the Cosmic Mass is something that cuts across all lines of age and cultures. Mark Day: This coming May you will be giving a retreat in Boston called "Occupy Christianity." Matthew Fox: Yes. It's about how to push the restart button on Christianity. We will be discussing both the spiritual and the strategic dimension of renewing Christianity with both Catholics and Protestants. The Protestant churches need a restart as well—for different reasons. Both traditions need to go back to the basic spiritual teachings of Jesus for renewal. [For more information on this retreat May 25-27 and other events, see: www.matthewfox.org]
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