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	An Interview with Healer, Therapist, Life Coach: Jack Lavino By Jaime Romo Healing and Spirituality August 11 2010 http://www.jaimeromo.com/blog/ Some people would say that a sign a person is living from a more spiritual or enlightened place is that: 1) people worry less (and are happier) and 2) there are more coincidences or convergences that happen more often. Jack Lavino, therapist, speaker, healer, reflects on his 38 year healing journey from the impacts of incest and ritual abuse. To read more about Jack, click here. JR: Can you tell us just a bit about yourself. I understand you’re a therapist and you use your own healing experience to help others in their recovery. JL: Yes, well that’s developed over the years. I’m more and more self revealing to clients today than ten or twenty years ago because I feel they benefit more and gain more hope from seeing my successes. My focus is on building a secure relationship with them. Through our relationship my clients grow and change. I see my work as healing broken hearts which I see as the basis for addiction and recovery from childhood abuse. I’ve been in the addiction and recovery field for 36 years and most of the people I’ve seen over the years have had abuse of one kind—mostly sexual and physical abuse as well as betrayal issues with parents. I was very active in my own therapy in the sense that after 2 years of sobriety, all I knew was depression and guilt. And I wanted to stay sober, so I went to therapy. This was in the early 70s, with the first movement of younger people in their late 20s, early 30s, coming from treatment into AA, and then AA started to change because of that. And most of us went into therapy also, which really changed the whole dynamic in AA meetings. So, after about 10 years leading an employee assistance program, I decided to leave the corporation because I figured that if I stayed there, I was going to die emotionally, spiritually and creatively. So, I left when I was 43. Didn’t know what I was going to do: took about 8 months off, traveled, did volunteer work for the forest service in Montana and Washington, and with the Nature Conservancy in the Channel Islands in California. That was my big break because all of my life I had worked. I’m the oldest of 8 kids. I got a scholarship to high school and college to play football, but I was always working, summers, vacations, whatnot. And so it was really great to take this year off. I ended up in Flagstaff, Arizona in 1983, and I started my practice there. I did this workshop for professionals in 1985 at The Meadows, an addiction treatment facility in Wickenburg, Arizona about doing our own family work. About halfway through, they asked us not to do any addictions work for the next twenty four hours. And I couldn’t sleep that night. The way I describe it is ‘my Gethsemane.’ And I could understand what Christ went through that whole night, because it was like a Civil War going on inside of me—having these flashes of an old man, things I couldn’t describe and the saying repeatedly blasting in my head, “Father, Father, Why Have You Forsaken Me.” ave You Forsaken me.hav You Forsaken me. More feelings than anything. And the next day I went back to the group and we couldn’t figure out what this was about, except I had this memory of a photograph of my cousins and I standing around a Christmas tree. I was around 2 or 3, and we were standing in front of a door, which I had taken to other therapists before, but they could never figure it out. But this therapist asked me what was behind the door. And I had a memory of my cousin grabbing at my genitals and my pushing away and falling out of a second floor window into a flower patch—I just missed a picket fence by about a foot. I was eleven months old. And so I went back to Flagstaff, and all of a sudden, the number 3 came up. I just had this sputum come up. I went through boxes of Kleenex. It was just my body—I think my whole recovery has been about my body telling me what to do next, really. So, I called my therapist, Fred Downing, and went to the Meadows to meet with him and told him about the number 3 coming up and the sputum. And he asked me if I was 3 months gestation, 3 months old or 3 years old. And all of a sudden, everything went dark and I had this memory of my father sexually abusing me when I was 3. And that started the whole ball rolling. JR: Did you ever confront your abusers— your father, priest and nuns? I told my wife and she told me that she didn’t believe my father could do that, so that created a giant fissure in our relationship. I had already planned the week before to go to Massachusetts to visit my father and visit my daughter who lived there. And I decided I was going to confront him. And I thought that confronting him would be enough. And when I confronted him, his reaction was ‘this is between you and I.’ And I knew he did it. He said, ‘if you say I did it, I apologize.’ And I said, ‘that’s not good enough.’ So it was really the first time I felt this betrayal, because as a father myself, I just couldn’t imagine how a father could ever do that. I just couldn’t even imagine what would drive someone to do that. So I was estranged from him for a year, and then about a month later, I was just going nuts. I couldn’t sleep, I was up and down, I was nervous. I had a friend who was an ex-priest, and he suggested that I go to therapy and recommended a therapist. And the biggest thing was that things clicked and she believed me because I was having all these doubts. I was 43 and thinking, ‘This didn’t happen. Why didn’t I have the memory before?’ So that was the start of working with her for about 5 years. And about 3 years after starting to work with her, I had a spontaneous onset of ulcerative colitis. I was going to a shamanic workshop in Albuquerque and at the same time I had started doing some Insight meditation, a Buddhist meditation. And more memories came up when I was at the workshop and in the following months, especially about the priest and nun abuse. So when I came back to Boulder, I saw a Gastroenterologist and he told me that I had 70% chance of developing cancer in 3 years. And I said, ‘not me.’ And I started to research. It was the first time I ever took responsibility for my body, my condition. I think that was the beginning of my ‘survivorship.’ Up until that point, I was the victim. I was trying to do it myself; I had enough friends; I was in a 12 step program. I didn’t need therapy, blah blah, blah. JR: So with the therapy around 1989, was that the beginning of your ‘survivor’ life? JL: Sort of. Within 4 months, I was divorced. My ex-wife and I went to family therapy, but it was all about me. I was the identified patient. I have had multiple marriages. They were all to good women. My responsibility is that I was always afraid of my exuberant energy because I believed that was part of why I was abused by my grandfather, father with the priest in ritual abuse and by the nun was because of this energy that I had and they wanted to squelch it. So I tried to control it. In my marriages I found women who would put limits on or control that energy. I would blame them rather than take responsibility for it. So, I feel that my marriages and divorces have been a big part of my spiritual growth. From my perspective, each one was about me learning to stand up for myself and the woman not being there, and me wanting to grow and change. And so, my choice was ‘do I live in my truth or do I stay in a difficult marriage?’ It’s really been a challenge. Actually, the sexual abuse and those memories got me into therapy. I always had this drive to feel balanced. I was always into health. I eat pretty well. But there’s always this drive to preach and to work with people and help people heal. So I always feel like I’m a healer. But I had to learn what I had to learn, and the biggest thing I’ve learned is that I had to love myself before I could love other people. Because if I didn’t love myself, then it was co-dependency. And what I learned in relationship from my parents was (my mother was very domineering and my father was very obsequious) to please women and please authority figures (with the sexual abuse). When I was a kid, the neighborhood moms loved me, the nuns loved me. I was an A student, if there were errands to run, I would run them, all that stuff. And so, my rage was really directed towards me—that I wasn’t perfect, not good enough, etc.. And so, that’s really what the therapy has been: learning over the years to accept myself for who I am and enjoy my exuberance and to learn to love myself, so that’s where I feel the thriving comes in. When I learned to love myself then it started; my life got better. Even now, I’m going through another change. I’m just getting different people in my life who have a lot in common, all of us, men and women, and it’s just wild. JR: One of the things that people have asked me is ‘so how long does it take?’ I can think of times that I was definitely living in a victim stage of life and another time I was clearly in the survivor mode. I’d say that victimhood is living in the ‘there and then’ and survivorhood is living in the ‘here and then,’ still being so triggered by so many things, reacting. Then the shift that I’m calling ‘survivor-thriver’ is about taking responsibility for your life, for your health, mental, physical, spiritual, everything. JL: I think that there are elements of all three stages in every part. For me the thriving has been more about relationships. That’s what I prayed for in my life. And even though I was the oldest of 8 kids, my family is not close. I say that my parents raised 8 only children and had very little to do with any of us. And I’m the pariah because I told the secret in the early 90s. I wrote everybody a letter and told them what happened to me, and most of them don’t have any contact with me, even today. JR I think that’s common. JL: I guess for me, the thriver started, and maybe my standards are too high, when I forgave the priest and the nuns in 2009. Because then I was free and that doesn’t mean that I’ve forgiven the church or the hierarchy. Or even the order of nuns, because I wrote them about five times and they never responded at all. But on the other hand, the Archdiocese of Boston, even though I was abused by a priest from an Order of priests, the Stigmatines and by the nun from an Order of nuns, Dominicans of St. Catherine Kentucky, paid for my therapy for six years. So there’s sort of an ambivalence with that. Because I really felt that when I stopped going to therapy, and stopped taking money from them, that I was free. What also happened in 2009 is that I had been going to OA, and socially I realized that basically, I drank water at gatherings with other people. People had an alcoholic drink, I drank water. They had sweets, I drank water—and I figured, ‘this isn’t living.’ I had been addicted to sweets, and I tried it and found ‘I’m not addicted.’ I can take it and it doesn’t matter. I can take it or leave it. And it’s like, ‘I’m free.’ So this all happened around that time. But the one addiction I’m not going to test is alcohol, because I see no benefit in using it. There’s none. So, that was all happening at the same time of the forgiveness. Also don’t have to be so dependent on 12-step groups. I can find my own way, spiritually. I don’t need to call a sponsor to tell me what to think. JR: I think that’s helpful, part of the development. There’s an analogy in “Regarding Henry.” First the victim is in the ICU and other people are doing for him. Then the survivor is still getting the ‘this is what you need to do’ and then at some point people need to figure out their own menu and exercise schedule, and maybe use the feedback sparingly. Then, we’re self- regulating, self directed. JL: Maybe that’s what is: self regulating. JR: But for you, the forgiveness piece is critical. JL: Well, it all happened around the same time. I realized that I had been dependent all my life in my relationships with women. I was always looking for somebody to “fill the gaps and to love me.” Almost like I was always looking for my mom. Now, I realize that I had been dependent most of my life and I had to learn to be independent. So, with this last divorce, I became independent. So, I would date women and not call them the next day. In the past, I would think ‘oh, they’ll be hurt if I don’t call them, and I operated out of my fears.’ That was confusing to me.” And slowly, I dated. Recently I am in a new relationship. Over months we’ve become more intimate. Even in our intimacy, before we made love, we made a commitment to one another. We had a little ceremony, to commit that we were going to be faithful. She had experiences of men being unfaithful and I had experiences with women who weren’t available. Like, it’s all on the table. I think, ‘this is so mature.’ JR: There’s an expression about organizations: there are unbounded instability – crazy energy and no boundaries; there’s bounded stability, — overly contained and no life inside. The real trick, the real challenge is bounded instability, so we contain our commitments and our relationship and that allows for the freedom and energy. JL: My thing is, ‘now I’m ready in the last 4 of 5 months for interdependency. I had to become independent before I could be inter-dependent. I only knew dependence. I was always looking for a woman. When something clicked, then 3 weeks later I move in. There’s a joke in Boulder, ‘yeah, we kissed and then 3 weeks later, I got a U-haul trailer.” JR: I think this is helpful. Lots of survivor issues are around boundary issues and dependency—even in the recovery piece, depending on other people to make it right. At some point, whether or not we ever get resolution with the institution or with an individual, we have to get that resolution in ourselves. JL: Thinking back, this could have started 6 months after I co-chaired the SNAP conference in 2004. I was meditating and I said, ‘you know, I don’t want to spend the rest of my life embarrassing and bringing down the Catholic Church—they’re going to do that all by themselves. I really want to work at helping people heal and be in recovery. So I resigned as SNAP leader. So that was a big step too. I’ve always been part of a movement. A pioneer in the addiction field, pioneer in the Employee Assistance field, and now a pioneer in this. I just came to the point that I had to heal myself and going after the Catholic Church was not healing for me. It was for that 2 year period that I did it. It was helpful for me to tell my story to the newspaper and stand up to the bishop. In 1995, I had written the Boston Archdiocese and they bought me off with a little platitude. And I wasn’t going to be bought off anymore. I have a feeling that I got my benefits for so long because they knew that if they stopped them, I’d go public, and that was part of that strength, channeling that rage into taking care of myself, getting them to make restitution. They wouldn’t have done so otherwise. You may have a better sense of where the shift is. JR: to me it’s similar. I think it’s when we start taking care of ourselves. Part of that is stepping away from the combative… JL: See that’s where I put it. At the colitis. That’s when I started taking care of myself. JJR: Even if it seems like a big loss at the time, and feels new—I’ve always been in a movement, always been a leader. JL: You know, there’s always been something about me wanting to meet my dreams. Even when I was a kid, being the oldest of 8 kids, my father never made more than a hundred bucks a week. I had these dreams and somehow this was going to happen. And the way I got into college was a miracle. The way I got into high school was a miracle because I had to get scholarships. I went to Brown University and the way I got there was that the football coach from another high school was talking to another football coach from Brown in this restaurant. And the mother of one of the cheerleaders who really liked me overheard the question about kids in the area that had good grades and who played football. She got up and walked over to their table and told them that they should talk to me. This was at lunch. So, at 1:30, my principal gets a call for me to go to the football office at the other high school. So, I met with the Brown coach and sent in my application and 3 weeks later, I got a letter that myself and 3 other guys are going to Brown to interview with the coaches. 3 weeks later, I get admitted to Brown. And it’s like I’ve been led to do all this. And then, how I got into employee assistance work, which is what I did for 10 years. I was in advertising and public relations before that. I went to therapy—probably in therapy only three or four months, and I told the therapist I couldn’t lie any more. I was the public relations director and part of staying sober was to be honest, to live an honest life by your principles. So I went back to tell my boss that I wanted 3 months to leave and get into the people business, where I belonged. And Jim the president of the company who was in alcoholism recovery happened to be at an AA meeting and someone asked him how I was doing, and he didn’t know I was in recovery. The man who ran the employee assistance program had announced his retirement the day before. My boss goes up to Jim to tell him that I’m leaving and Jim tells him that he wants me to run the Employee Assistance Program. It’s like, ‘thank you, God.’ So, I’ve always had this spirituality, and felt this connection to my purpose in life. And those were two miracles that got me here. JR: But that was all background. JL: Right. So, there’s always been this drive to feel whole and to be a preacher, basically. I always thought that I was going to be a doctor or a priest, growing up. And I really feel that I was a priest in past lives and that this is who I am. So, I think my recovery has been about becoming more and more authentic about who I really am, and learning how to speak out about who I am. JR: Thank you.
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