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	Embattled Cardinal Pell Speaks with Ali Moore By Ali Moore Australian Broadcasting Corporation July 9, 2008 http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2299283.htm Ali Moore speaks with Catholic Archbishop Cardinal Pell about the sex abuse scandal engulfing the Catholic Church. Transcript ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: In three days, Pope Benedict the 16th arrives in Sydney, ahead of the Catholic Church's World Youth Day celebrations. But for the Church's highest representative in Australia, Sydney Archbishop Cardinal George Pell, it's proving a difficult time, faced with claims he misled a sexual abuse victim. Cardinal Pell's handling of the allegations by former religious teacher Anthony Jones against Sydney Priest Father Terence Goodall continues to be under the spotlight, with the ABC's Lateline program set to reveal details tonight of telephone taps which record a conversation between the victim and his accused. That conversation goes to the heart of the issue of whether the behaviour in question was consensual. I spoke to Cardinal George Pell in Sydney today. ALI MOORE: Cardinal Pell, welcome to the 7:30 Report. CARDINAL GEORGE PELL, ARCHBISHOP OF SYDNEY: Thank you very much Ali. ALI MOORE: How does a man of your eminence, your intellect, your intimate knowledge of the controversy surrounding sexual abuse allegation, allegations which have in fact touched you person in the past, how do you write a letter to a victim dismissing his complaint and in your own words, make an innocent error, a mistake, an overstatement and use bad wording? How does that happen? GEORGE PELL: I receive a lot of mail. I sign a lot of letters every day. It takes a great deal of time to be over every detail. I didn't dismiss his complaints. I substantially accepted them. But in one important particularity, the question of whether it was rape or consensual sex, I differed from what was recommended to me. There was no cover-up. The matters were followed through to the conclusion, the priest was stood down, and the letter that I signed was badly written and that's my mistake. ALI MOORE: Let's look at, I guess, the two clear issues that are here. The first is that you said in your letter to Anthony Jones that there had been no other complaint of attempted sexual assault against Father Goodall when in fact you wrote a letter same day upholding the complaint of indecent assault of an altar boy. Now you said that was bad wording. You meant to convey there had been no other allegation of rape. But in fact given what you knew at this point about Father Goodall, you knew that he had abused an 11-year old boy. GEORGE PELL: No, no, had abused. ALI MOORE: An 11-year-old boy, the altar boy? That did not give you pause for thought? You conveyed the impression in this letter that Father Goodall was clean, unencumbered by other allegations. GEORGE PELL: No, no, I didn't mean to do that. But what I did mean to do was to indicate that there was no other accusation of rape, of violence and that was done imperfectly. ALI MOORE: The other issues regarding Father Goodall. You knew of the altar boy. Did you know of other allegations at that time, given that the report that you finally received some months later from your investigator found that in fact there had been issues that went back right to the second year of Father Goodall's ordination. Did you know of any other issues at that time? GEORGE PELL: Those matters were revealed substantially by him during treatment, there are confidential medical reports, I was unaware of those at the time. ALI MOORE: There is of course the second issue, the fact that you attributed the findings that the claim of sexual assault against Mr Jones could not be substantiated, you attributed that to your investigator when in fact the investigator Howard Murray had found the opposite. Why make that attribution? GEORGE PELL: Because I accepted that there were three acts of sexual misbehaviour. I accepted those. But what I didn't accept was the difference between rape and consensual sex with a 29-year olds man. That was the only thing I didn't accept. ALI MOORE: In that report of Howard Murray there is nothing to in it to indicate that Father Goodall insisted it was consensual, there was nothing about insistence of it being a consensual act. GEORGE PELL: Mr Murray is quite clear and he clarified that subsequently that Father Goodall always insisted it was consensual. ALI MOORE: Because in fact in police phone taps that Lateline will reveal tonight, Father Goodall tells Anthony Jones that "I certainly did not say it was consensual. I don't know where they got that from." And he's referring to his interview with Howard Murray in January 2003. GEORGE PELL: I am not aware of that. I was always told it was consensual. ALI MOORE: So on the basis of what you understand you would suggest Father Goodall was lying in that telephone conversation? GEORGE PELL: I don't know who was lying; it's very, very difficult to try to find out the truth in these situations. Very, very difficult to try to be just, not only to those making the allegations but to those accused, and I acted to the best of any knowledge and also my judgement was vindicated in the criminal case where the prosecutors when the case was taken, the prosecutors never alleged rape, they didn't, he wasn't found guilty of assault, he was found guilty of an indecent act. He was sentenced only to the rising of the court and the judge said that, this was under the old legislation - ALI MOORE: But in what way does that vindicate your view on consent? GEORGE PELL: That it wasn't rape. ALI MOORE: But rape wasn't the claim brought. The charges were brought under the Indecent Act, the old laws against homosexuality. GEORGE PELL: But yes, but obviously charges of rape would have been brought if there was a possibility of there being, if it was likely they would be accepted. ALI MOORE: Why did you take the word of Father Goodall, which you made clear in subsequent letters that it was up to the word of him or the word of Anthony Jones, you chose to take the word of Father Goodall? Why did you choose his word? GEORGE PELL: Because the evidence was uncorroborated, because of the whole circumstances leading up to. There was a candlelight dinner, they had swum together, they were sitting on the bed together, it was because of the circumstances as explained that I took that view and I believe that that has been vindicated by subsequent events, and I accepted that sexual misbehaviour took place. ALI MOORE: You said yesterday that Father Goodall insisted it was consensual all along and he "confirmed that to me". Now given that there is nothing in the investigator's report regarding Goodall insisting it was consensual, did Goodall make private representations to you regarding the case? GEORGE PELL: Yes, we spoke together and he said that the matter was consensual. ALI MOORE: But before you made your ultimate finding? GEORGE PELL: I think that's the case, yes. ALI MOORE: On how many occasions? GEORGE PELL: I believe we spoke together once. ALI MOORE: Was Anthony Jones given a similar ability to make representations? GEORGE PELL: I wrote to Jones and, see, I'm the superior of the priest, I've always got to be open to speak with the priest and especially if I'm telling him that it is likely his time as a priest is over, I've got to speak to him. I offered subsequently to speak to Jones, first of all through a facilitator and then myself. Unfortunately he has never taken that up. But that offer still stands. ALI MOORE: So had you offered for Anthony Jones to make representations to you about the case prior to your finding? GEORGE PELL: No, I didn't. I didn't. ALI MOORE: If I can return to the telephone taps which I acknowledge that you have not seen, but as well as saying, as well as Father Goodall maintaining it wasn't consensual he goes on to say it definitely was not consensual and he admits to having taken advantage of another man. On the basis of that and indeed the subsequent report by Howard Murray which found that Father Goodall had been involved in a number of incident, including involving a 16-year-old girl, on the base of those two, will you reopen the case? GEORGE PELL: I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any question of reopening the case. The matter has, you know, gone through all the things. But those statements of Goodall of course put my decision on this particular end in quite a different light. ALI MOORE: A different light, sufficiently different for you to reconsider? GEORGE PELL: Well, yes, I mean if he consented to the fact that it was rape, I was only attempting to do justice to all parties. ALI MOORE: So if you receive a copy of these phone taps and you can, I suppose, verify them, you would reopen the Church's investigation of them? GEORGE PELL: I would certainly take legal advice. I would, I have always said I am happy to talk with Jones, and if this new information is verified, I would certainly talk with him a new basis of fact. ALI MOORE: On the basis I of everything you know to date, do you still believe it was consensual? GEORGE PELL: I've just heard a piece of new information in this, so I'd have to consider it. But if both parties say it wasn't consensual, then there's just one conclusion. ALI MOORE: Do you think that this case, coming as it does, the timings just before the Pope's arrival, makes it more important that he does issue an apology to Australians who have been abused by Catholic priests? GEORGE PELL: I don't think the whole facts of the situation change much by this sad particular situation. It's a problem, I certainly hope the Pope apologises. ALI MOORE: Is this the biggest week coming in your life? GEORGE PELL: I think so, yes. Perhaps apart from the fact when I became a priest or when I was baptised. But it will, it will be a big week. It will be a good week. ALI MOORE: Is it a disappointment to you that it's begun as it has? GEORGE PELL: No, no, I wouldn't have wanted that. I mean, it's an extraordinary coincidence isn't it that these things have been brought up just before the Pope comes. We would like it otherwise but in life you have to cope with what comes. ALI MOORE: Does it taint what's coming? GEORGE PELL: I don't think so, no, not at all. ALI MOORE: The scandals of the Church are well known. They've damaged us. Where I have a long record of faithful implementation of new protocols which I put in place in Melbourne and up here, we're not covering up. Since the middle 90s, whatever the imperfections in particular cases through a lack of information or that, throughout Australia, substantially, we've done what we should and we're quite prepared to stand by our record. We haven't been able to heal all the hurts, and you know, I am keen not to make a bad situation worse. But sometimes it's very difficult to know what you can do to make it better. I mean, Mr Jones is an example of that. ALI MOORE: Cardinal Pell, many thing thanks for talking to us. GEORGE PELL: Thank you, Ali.
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