By Brian K. Smith
Republican & Herald
June 15, 2008
http://www.republicanherald.com/articles/2008/06/15/news/local_news/pr_republican.20080615.a.pg1.pr15bishop_s1.1741658_top2.txt
Editor's note: On Thursday, City Editor Brian K. Smith traveled to Allentown with Photo Editor Nick Meyer to interview the Most Rev. Edward P. Cullen, bishop of the Allentown Diocese, about a plan announced two weeks ago to close 32 Roman Catholic churches in Schuylkill County by July 15. The text of the hour-and-15-minute interview has been edited for space and content.
ALLENTOWN — The Most Rev. Edward P. Cullen, bishop of Allentown, seldom gives personal interviews.
But due to the gravity of the parish reconfiguration, he made an exception.
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| The Most Rev. Edward P. Cullen, bishop of the Allentown Diocese, speaks Thursday in his office during an interview with The REPUBLICAN & Herald City Editor Brian K. Smith. Photo by Nick Meyer |
"This is really a historical period in the history of the diocese and certainly for Schuylkill County and anything that can assist in our endeavor to carry out our mission there. . . this will be helpful, this information," he said Thursday in his office in the Diocesan Chancery.
The bishop, expecting to retire in about a year, said the process was driven by a process of studies, committee meetings and review by two diocesan advisory bodies.
The bishop emphasized the need to have one pastor per parish and improve the ratio of priests to people. He said Schuylkill County — where he finds the "finest Catholics" — was hit hardest by the consolidation because its number of parishes was greater in proportion to the population than elsewhere.
Q: Could you please summarize the reasons for closing 32 Catholic churches in Schuylkill County by July 15?
A: There are a couple of reasons for that. Let me answer in the order of development.
The criteria was set for reconfiguring of parishes which involved a priest having only one parish. That was one criterion.
The second one was we wanted to try to, as best we could, to approach a ratio of one priest for every 2,400 people.
The third area that affected Schuylkill County would be the fact that they have a very large number of parishes. They have 587 parishes currently and when you look at the number of people there, they have 40,000 Catholic people in the county by our registration records, with 58 parishes, and you could take Norhthampton County, with twice as many people, 79,000, with somewhere in the area of 23 parishes.
So you can see (Northampton County) would be less affected on the ratio part.
(Schuylkill County) had far more parishes than the other areas of the diocese, far more. Also, it was a county which had a pastor leading a multiple number of parishes which wasn't so present anywhere else in the diocese. So the criteria really hit them pretty hard.
When we talk about (how) we wanted to try to handle the assignment of one priest with only one parish, one pastor for one parish, the concept there was so disproportionate in Schuylkill County that it had to have an impact of how many parishes would close more than anywhere else. That was the real reason. I think that is at the heart of it — and we had no option of raising the number of priests that would be available for the staffing of the parishes through the diocese.
The question too, where you indicate why was it done for — July 15 is the date. When we began this process of reconfiguring, that process had a two-year cycle. In other words, it began a year ago and none of the implementation would have to happen until June of '09.
But in Schuylkill County, there were committees who handed in their reports. They wanted it to be done quickly. They wanted it to be done this year. And there are only a few committees — I think there might be two committees left in Schuylkill County (editor's note: that is correct) where we haven't handled that yet. They all wanted it this year and they all wanted it, "Please Bishop, let's do it this year and let's get it done."
It really was a response to what I was hearing back from the committees as they made their reports. So, you can see the time frame, why that time frame of this year.
It's amazing to me that so many of the committees and the deaneries just wanted to get moving forward with the reconfiguration, so we did it and it coordinated with all the changes of the priests. Normally they change in early June and we rescheduled that for the middle of July and provided the people with six weeks for final Masses in the places where they were.
Q: How do you respond to people who claim the diocese did not do enough to bring in outside priests, particularly from abroad, to help alleviate the priest shortage here?
A: There are a couple issues related to that.
One, we do have priests from abroad in the diocese. We have them from the Philippines. We have them from a number of countries in South America, Central America. We have the African priest, of course.
We also have a conviction, and this I received from our council of priests, that for a diocese to be viable in its faith, it should be provided from the community itself, with priests. They should be forthcoming from the community and it was a call for us to strengthen our spiritual life, strengthen our Catholic values within the families and within our parishes, so that we would provide people who are of our own culture here and who can communicate with an appreciation of those whom they serve because they were from among them, born among them, and we didn't want to become dependent on foreign priests.
That's the main reason why we wanted to be alive with our own priests.
Secondly, when you do bring priests in, they have cultural accommodations to make which many times are not so easily made.
Thirdly, in seeking priests from other countries, they're all having their own difficulties with priests, their numbers aren't that heavy at all and when they do come to this country, and I'm speaking now to a lot of my brother bishops, they really seek to go to a metropolitan area. They know about San Francisco, or Chicago, or New York. They see things in that light and so it's not as easy to bring them into our country. They're looking to serve the people, yes, but to be more immersed in a metro area culture than what would be provided normally in our parishes in the Diocese of Allentown.
Q: How do you respond to people who feel the restructuring plan did not truly integrate the wishes of the parishioners and was a foregone conclusion before reactions and input was asked for?
A: The history of what occurred and led us to today speaks directly in opposition to that assumption.
When you look to the process, I did survey all of the priests of this diocese and I gave them a list of those (issues) in the diocese which they thought should be our priority going forward to look at and to examine. And I took that list from the list which the National Conference of Catholic Bishops used when the bishops looked to the nation (and asked) what are the (issues) that our people want us to speak to. I used that same concept, "What are the (issues) here that our people want the diocese to speak to?"
And to help the bishops along, they created a list of 50 topics at least, they covered just about everything, and I took those topics and I shared them with the priests. They came back after consultation with their parishioners through the diocese and they listed about 10 and we said, "Let's take the first six as they were prioritized coming back," so that if we have a synod which is to look at those issues, we'll look at the ones that were prioritized by the priests after consultation with their people.
The six came back and they were: The reconfiguring of parishes, the consolidation of schools where necessary, married life, programs for our youth, religious education for our young people who are not attending Catholic school, and vocations to the priesthood and religious life. They were the top six and so we made the priority.
Then we had regional meetings in each of the deaneries. I went to all of them and heard the people and they broke up into small sessions and then they came back and gave their reports and we have ... it's voluminous the amount of information that we have.
We had their comments and their insights on those six topics. We didn't want this synod to include every possible topic from A to Z. We wanted to get something that was prioritized and we would move and act on it. So we did that and we got the comments from the people and, to move that forward and to handle their comments in the synod, we had a preparatory commission established who looked at those six topical areas, gave their thoughts, reviewed them, looked at all the implications of them because there are a lot of canonical implications and so forth, then we convened the synod.
Now, the synod was composed primarily of laity from all regions of the diocese. There were priests on it and religious, but the largest portion of it was laity, and they met, they went through the synodical process and they dealt with all the information that the preparatory commission provided them. That came from the hearings. We reviewed that and we had decrees that came from the synod. They were recommended to me. I approved the decrees and then I established what is called a diocesan pastoral council which is called for by the Code of Canon Law and is 23 members, and that is a body which is primarily laity and their mission was to take the synodical decrees and recommend how they are implemented.
The first one they chose was that of the reconfiguration of parishes so we moved in that direction and their recommendation was to form (regions), in the various deaneries, where the people are, maybe a cluster of three, five, seven parishes, whatever it was, it varied from place to place, and have the pastor and two people from each parish constitute that body who would be the committee for that deanery region. So if you had, for example, five priests and each had two parishioners of the five parishes, if they each had one parish, it would be ... 15. Some of the priests, they had three parishes, so you would have one priests and six people. That was the guideline.
They had criteria as to what they were asked to look to and to follow and that was publicized to everybody. They also were told that this process has two years for its completion and we would want their reports (recommending how churches should be consolidated in that region) by June of 2009 at the latest and they could have the report in any time up to that.
And the reports didn't all come in like May of this year. Some came earlier. There were different times that they came in. When they came in, they went to the Diocesan Pastoral Council, which is the advisory body to myself, and they also went to the Council of Priests, which is the other canonical body, that's all priests.
And these recommendations from the deanery committees went to both bodies. They gave their thoughts on them and then they recommended something to me and then I acted on that. In one case, they felt they didn't want to recommend it. They didn't want to reject it. They remanded it back. They thought it needed further work so I accepted that and I sent it back and I asked for further work. (Editor's note: The bishop gave this as an example and said later he could not identify the region to which he referred until its plan was completed.)
So that's the process, and believe me, there's no way that you could ever take a body like the Diocesan Pastoral Council, or a synod made of the laity, with all these issues and have them crown a pre-planned approach. It came from them. They own it and it's to their credit and the whole idea is to trust the people speaking as God enlightens them as they look at all this material. And they were wonderful people, and they are wonderful people throughout the synod process and now in the Diocesan Pastoral Council and to live by what they recommended.
Now, as I mentioned, one was remanded back, and that's still coming forth. Both bodies thought it would be too difficult to follow through with what that particular group wanted. (The regional committee) wanted to move, I understand, seven parishes into one. (The councils) wanted to make the seven parishes into two, so they recommended a little bit different, the council, from what the regional committee recommended. But the regional committee was a little bit split on that themselves. So (the councils') view was that it should be two and I followed. They're my two advisory bodies and I did that.
So the whole history does not speak to anything that would affirm (the sentiment in the question.) History speaks against it.
Q: Several people commented recently they will not, or may not, continue to regularly attend Mass after restructuring because they are too upset with the result and/or the process. Do you have an estimate on how many people will stop attending Mass or participating in church activities as a result of restructuring. What would you say to these people?
A: First of all, I don't really know how many that would be here.
My experience in the diocese for 10 years has been that in Schuylkill County you have your finest Catholics. No question about that in my mind. They're people of very, very deep faith and I think that is why they are so devoted to their parishes and their churches. I think that is a reflection of that depth.
I certainly believe in the disappointment of their particular parish not being the one that survives as the functional church. They can become upset and maybe feel that way but to act that way and implement that in their lives is very contradictory to their lived faith through the years.
I have to leave that to them. I can't be judgmental on it, but I have the greatest conviction about the people of that county — not in comparison to the rest of the diocese, but in comparison to anywhere in the United States. They are people of great faith and it's hard for me to believe that they're going to put that aside on an issue of this kind. I think they know where the sacraments are and where their love for the church is and it is going to take time for that to be settled in their own minds and hearts in a comfortable fashion.
Q: Do you expect there will be a lost sense of community in the areas where several parishes were consolidated? How does the diocese intend to re-establish these communities where parishes have become several times larger?
A: I think the people in those regions ... they interface with one another in every aspect of their life, even in their church life. They go to different churches that are in their community — maybe one that is not their parish of registration — but their children share their lives with one another, they go to schools, they shop at the stores, they're interested in the same civic events and they're supportive of them. They go and support one another in their respective ethnic gatherings in their churches. I believe that the priests who are going to be leading the parishes there would see that as an enrichment to continue that and (the people) will participate in that even though they all belong to the same church.
So, I think they'll be able to carry that forth and the others will enjoy that and be supportive of them as they are now even though they belong to different churches by registration they'll support them even though they belong to the same church.
I think that will find its level. If there is one thing that I found in going to the parishes in Schuylkill County, they're social people. They're wonderful people that way and I think they'll find that level very satisfactorily.
Q: Why was the process of restructuring the diocese delayed for so many years even though the need was evident before your time as bishop and the closing of schools was carried out.
A: When you lead a body of people, a diocese in this case, approaching 300,000 Catholic people — I think it's 275,000 or 280,000 — and you're the spiritual leader, you have to get a sense of many, many factors in the diocese, and make your judgments on where that environment of the present moment suggests the actions that you should take.
I only can speak for myself. I've been here for a little over 10 years. I came in February of '98, and I looked at all of the factors and it became very apparent to me and continuously presented to me by people and by my priests — and so many of my priests are sons of Schuylkill County. If you take a look at my priest personnel board who recommend where priests should be assigned, most of them are from Schuylkill County, they were raised in Schuylkill County, wonderful priests. A large number of those who are on the council of priests and other advisory bodies are Schuylkill County priests — I received this from my priests. I received it from the people.
It was the time, in my mind as a leader, that it was something I should do. My predecessors, they had to deal with different terrain, different years. Foundation years are different. (Editor's note: the Diocese of Allentown was formed from the Archdiocese of Philadelphia in 1961 with the Most Rev. Joseph McShea as first bishop) Bishop McShea had many, many issues. He had far more priests. He looked at other issues that had to be priorities and the same for Bishop Welsh in his tenure.
So, I think they dealt very well with the issues as they perceived them and as they presented themselves. They did have timing and things that they thought were appropriate. The schools were 104 grade schools when the diocese was founded and it's 48 today. I closed a few that were brought to me, but most of them were done before and the same way with the high schools. There were 14 and there are eight today. I closed one but more were closed. That was the time for them.
I dealt with (reconfiguration) it in the timing that came to my mind and my conviction to listening to the people and using this process.
It would be very difficult unless you lived in those times and knew the particulars to understand all the things that occurred then, but I certainly trust the wisdom of my predecessors on that.
Q: Was giving one priest several parishes seen as an emergency measure, sort of "We'll do this and hope that, in the future, there will be more priests and we can shuffle things again?"
A: You certainly could speculate, that's a speculation that they would be hopeful that vocations would turn around and that the parishes would (still) be there. Perhaps that was a part of the equation at the time. I don't how either of the two bishops looked at it.
I know in other dioceses that is exactly how they looked at it and the vocations haven't turned around throughout the United States and here too. You know, this year, for the second time in the history of the diocese, we didn't have any one ordained a priest. Now, next year, we'll have four ordained and that's wonderful and that's going to help out a great deal. And we have, I think, four entering the seminary this year.
So, I wouldn't want to say that was the case here. It could have been.
Some also use the approach of asking men who are beyond 75 to continue leadership. The church calls for 75 to be retirement age and you don't find too many leaders running a program, giving leadership. So part of what occurred in this reconfiguration is to move away from that, too. I did retire 11 men this year who were of that age and so we're geared to serve the people in the age frame that the code of canon law normally sees as the age frame.
Q: Some of the men you retired this year were several years past the mandatory retirement age.
A: Oh, they were, they were. I had a luncheon, I invited them all for a luncheon. We had a wonderful time. Two of them were unable to attend. But nine of them came. The other two called me and apologized telling me they wanted to be there ...
The ones who came were very, very pleased with what happened. Most of the ones who were retired this year asked to be retired. A few would have stayed on even though they're over age, maybe two, and when you move to reconfiguration in accord with what the church is calling for — and both of the ones who would have stayed on had already stayed on a couple of years — it was the time.
Q: Realistically, what are the chances of having any of the restructuring decisions being overturned through appeals to the nuncio, to Rome?
A: First of all, you have to understand the law of the church. The people have a perfect right to contest that. That's the law of the church and I respect that if that is an action that they choose to take.
So that's number one. I give that as a given.
As a bishop who moved in the direction that I was called to move in by the synod and my advisory bodies here, if there's one thing you are meticulous on it is the procedure that you use to ensure that it is in harmony with church law. Certainly I consulted a number of lawyers, church lawyers, we call them canon lawyers, in the diocese here and some of our consultants are canon lawyers nationally recognized, so that every step that was taken, if it were contested on a procedural basis, I don't think that it would hold at all. If I did, I wouldn't have taken the action that I took. I was very particular on that and I don't have a question about our following the prescriptions of the law.
Your question how will the different dicasteries in Rome look at this, that's something that rests with them and I can't speak for them. I do know that they look toward procedure. That's the issue with them. Usually it's not so much, "Should this church rather than that church close?"... they leave that — usually they leave that to the bishop. They say, "Procedurally, did you do that in the right way?"
When you're the bishop of a large diocese and you are accustomed to all kinds of people, for different reasons, coming to the church on canonical matters, contesting it or contesting things or initiating suits (for example) they slipped on the church property, that's in your life every day and you handle that as a matter of everyday occurrence. So, if this occurs here, I have to handle it that way. I have to know that I have to be convinced that, procedurally, I was correct and I have no question about that.
Q: What will happen with the assets/debts of the churches or parishes which no longer exist? Will they be passed on to the consolidated parishes or the diocese as a whole? Will properties be sold? If so, how will prices be determined? Will parishioners have any say in how their previous contributions are allocated? Will the merged and consolidated parishes be able to honor perpetual care obligations?
A: In some case, the property is in the name of the pastor and in some cases, in most cases, it's in the name of the bishop as bishop. But in both cases, alienation of the property requires the bishop's approval.
They're just civil facts of the matter. To go to the heart of your question, the diocese will receive no money whatsoever from any of these buildings or the properties, the assets, they all follow the surviving parish in a consolidation or a merger. They go to that particular church. And it's a very important aspect to keep in mind in this because I certainly don't want anyone to understand that these mergers and consolidations, I don't want them to believe or understand that this has to do with procurement of funds or anything for the diocese. It goes with the people in the newly founded parishes or the newly recognized parishes.
Q: So you would tell the people that the money is not leaving Schuylkill County?
A: Oh, it can't. No. Not only is not leaving Schuylkill County, it's not leaving the people. If a church merged in Pottsville, then it goes to the church in Pottsville. It doesn't go to anything else in Schuylkill County. It goes to where the people now have to go to church. It's not a Schuylkill County issue. It's a local issue.
Q: Say one church was raising money for some project that isn't going to happen now (because of reconfiguration) and that money is going to a different parish. Is it the pastor who is going to have to iron out all these things, and what about perpetual care?
A: Perpetual care. The new, the surviving parish will carry those responsibilities and they should be in a very good position to do it.
So much will be related to the guidelines that we have created for handling the very matters you talk about. There is an instrument (a manual) which has been created to assist the pastors in addressing these issues. We have meeting coming up Wednesday of this week where all the pastors involved in the mergers and the consolidations will meet and they will address in detail the kind of questions that you've raised here and they will have the resourcefulness of the different diocesan offices for advice, legal advice, fiscal advice. There will be people there from the cemeteries office who will clarify that issue, perpetual care, the ensuring of that.
The manual that they will receive addresses all those issues of the property, alienation of property. I think, if the property is to be sold, the market will determine the price and that will be the real-estate assistance there.
That manual is a manual that was recommended by the Diocesan Pastoral Council, by our laity and the council of priests. It's not something that I and a few people, or our administrative staff (created). It came from the people who have a sensitivity to the kinds of questions that will be raised.
Q: In some parishes, parishioners questioned why newer churches with better accommodations, such as parking or handicapped access, were closed in favor of older or less accommodating buildings.
A: One of the issues that came forth when we had the regional meetings, in that process I spoke of earlier in our conversation, was they wanted some way of being able to have an input on issues of that kind and that's why, when you formulated the committee, it was primarily laity from the parishes.
It's really interesting what (regions) would look at those two things very individually in their communities. They really did. Why one would choose parking or not parking, one would choose an older church . . . maybe the older church in their sight is more beautiful, maybe the other church, they see that as a conversion facility for gathering or something, for community affairs — I don't know what but, they are all over the lot but they really came from the people.
I can cite one situation currently, it's not in Schuylkill County, it's in Catasaqua (Lehigh County), where they have three parishes and they're going into one parish, and that's fine, they've made that decision, but they asked if they could have some more time. They're not sure which church they want to use. I said, "Nothing has to be done until next year." Now they want some more time for deliberation on that and there's pluses and minuses in each of the facilities that they might choose, so you have to leave that come from the people.
I don't believe that — to the best of my recollection — I don't think any recommendations as to the church (building) was reversed. Whatever they did, we went with it as I recall from what came in and how the two bodies looked at it. And the priests know those regions pretty well. And we have a good number of laity on the Diocesan Pastoral Council who are on it.
So they stayed with the recommendation that came in and you could say it's a difficult thing to please everyone.
Q: You recently celebrated your 75th birthday and, in accordance with Canon Law, submitted your request to retire. What does the future hold for you and the diocese?
A: I don't know when I will be retired. I can tell you the average time. I was told that the average time they're taking is about a year to 15 months from the time when you forward your resignation. I sent mine in a little bit before my birthday (March 15), a couple of weeks so it would be in Rome in time for it.
So, if it was the average, it would be around March of next year or around this time next year — or it could be earlier (depending on) the conditions that Rome would see. They begin a search process and they look for a successor and that process isn't something that occurs overnight, usually.
They might have a person they want to send here in mind in the fall, or it might go to the winter. I don't know.
I'm going to stay in the diocese and help out like Bishop Welsh helped me and maybe help with confirmations and make myself available to the degree that I can.
Q: You would become bishop emeritus then?
A: Yes, that's right.
Q: So, what advantages have you given to your ultimate successor by taking care of this problem now?
A: I think it gives the successor the advantage of not having to engage in a very sensitive process, the one that we're in now, as a new bishop not being familiar with the terrain. It takes off of him ... it's a huge strain, to go through this. You don't want to hurt anybody. No one wants to close parishes. No one wants to. Whether you're on the Diocesan Pastoral Council, or the bishop, or a member of the council of priests — this is something that is not a pleasant task and maybe it's something that the new person coming in will have a clear range of moving forward with the program and not be saddled with some of the negative feedback that's related to this, the anger of some of the people, the feelings, the disappointment. I think he'll be able to move forward with the programs for marriage, for vocations, our youth programs and the religious vocations. They were the four service programs that were identified in the synod.
And the Catholic schools, to see how they're going to move forward, too.
This is such a fundamental issue, I think it's such an advantage to him just as a bishop to give all your energy, that's involved with that.
Q: You mean he'll be able to focus all his energies on those other things that the synod called for?
A: That's right. And the people won't be on pins and needles wondering themselves in their parishes where they are going to be, how they are going to be reconfigured. They all knew with 58 parishes ... Schuylkill County and Carbon County will have the best ratio of priest to people. Carbon County will have about one priest every 1,400 people and Schuylkill County will have one to every 1,800 or so. And the others will be 1 to 2,400 or 2,700. They still, with all the reconfiguration, will have the best ratio.
You can't go up there as a bishop on confirmation or on an anniversary or anything and person after person over 10 years says, "Bishop, when you close the parishes, don't close mine."
They all knew that it had to be done and none of them wanted and it was understandable. And I'm telling you, they are the most wonderful people and I have all the hope that it's going to resolve itself positively and I think the new bishop can really get his hands into the service issues and I think that would be the help on this, that he would fall heir to.
Q: Are we looking at more schools being closed?
A: The Diocesan Pastoral Council will be looking at schools and they'll probably put a survey out to get some information and move along in that direction to enhance the schools. You have to understand, where the schools are concerned, when you look toward them, there were closures over the years. Whatever might occur, there wouldn't be anything as dramatic ... I would hope they can enhance the schools, but we are going to have to take a look at that and that is one of the areas we are going to look at now as we wrap up the reconfiguration of the parishes.
I don't know what is going to happen in the schools. It seems to me that the school question has been addressed over the years and whatever would be done there would never have the magnitude or impact of the parishes which had not been addressed for a number of years.
Q: Do you have anything final to say?
A: I would like to thank all of the people of Schuylkill County for the support and the letters of encouragement which my brother priests have received and myself. I would like to thank my priests, who took their new assignments enthusiastically and we did have a very large number of priests who were involved in this. I could not expect more support than I received from the priests and the laity also.
For those who are disappointed, I understand it. I see it as a cross for them and it's not an easy thing for me.
I ask them to consider giving the fullness of their support to the direction we have been led to take by reason of our synod and that's all I can ask.
Contact: bsmith@republicanherald.com
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