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Deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony [Note: This is Part 1 of a two-part HTML version of the Mahony deposition [see also Part 2] that BishopAccountability.org created from a Word document included with Cardinal Untruths: Mahony's Testimony in Sex Scandal Clashes with Earlier Statements and Reality, by Jeffrey Anderson, LA Weekly (12/15/04). See also Mahony in '80s Banned Two Priests: Deposition Reveals He Ousted Pair Accused of Molestation from U.S. While He Was Stockton Bishop, by Jean Guccione, LA Times (12/10/04); and Cardinal Mahony Accused of Perjury in Sex Abuse Case, by Don Lattin, San Francisco Chronicle (12/11/04). In his article, Anderson also provided four of the deposition exhibits: 2, 3, 4, and 8. For easier reading, we have formatted the list of exhibits and the list of questions that Mahony was instructed by his lawyer not to answer. We've displayed the page numbers in blue and adjusted the spacing, but otherwise this is the text of the deposition that accompanied Anderson's article.] 0001
0007 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)
24 (NONE) 25 0008 1 TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 2004; LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA. 2 10:05 A.M. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is the 4 videotaped deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony. It's 5 taken in the matter of John Doe versus the Roman 6 Catholic Bishop of Stockton. It's pending trial in the 7 Superior Court of California, for the County of 8 Alameda, Case Number 4359. 9 Today's date is November the 23rd, 2004. The 10 time is 10:05 A.M. This deposition is being taken at 11 the law firm of Hennigan and Bennett, located at 601 12 South Figueroa Street, on the 26th floor, in 13 Los Angeles, California. The videotaped deposition is 14 noticed by John C. Manly of Manly & McGuire, located at 15 555 Anton Boulevard, Suite 1200, in Costa Mesa, 16 California, 92626. 17 The videotape operator is Richard Smith. I'm 18 with Dan Motaz Video Productions, located at 182 Second 19 Street, Suite 202 in San Francisco, California, 94105. 20 The phone number is (415) 624 1300. 21 Could I have counsel please identify themselves 22 and state their affiliations for the record, please. 23 MR. MANLY: John Manly for the plaintiff. 24 MS. SOLTAN: Venus Soltan for the plaintiff. 25 MR. WALL: Patrick Wall for the plaintiff. 0009 1 MR. SIMONS: Rick Simons, plaintiffs' counsel 2 in Clergy III. 3 MR. GEORGE: Joseph George, Jr., plaintiff. 4 MR. SILVA: Jeff Silva, plaintiff. 5 MR. DAVENPORT: Gregory Davenport, plaintiff. 6 MS. FREBERG: Katherine Freberg, plaintiff. 7 MR. CHRISTIAN: John Christian for the Diocese 8 of Monterey and liaison counsel for defendants in 9 Clergy III. 10 MR. CALLAHAN: Peter Callahan, Diocese of 11 Orange and Diocese of Monterey. 12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Seth Schwartz, Diocese of 13 Stockton. 14 MR. BALESTRACCI: Paul Balestracci, Diocese of 15 Stockton. 16 MR. MATIASIC: Paul Matiasic, Franciscan 17 Friars and Bishop of Oakland. 18 MR. MAUL: Frank Maul, Diocese of Fresno. 19 MR. HENNIGAN: Michael Hennigan, Archdiocese 20 of Los Angeles. 21 MR. WOODS: Don Woods representing the 22 witness, Cardinal Mahony. 23 MR. GODFREY: Peter Godfrey for the 24 Archdiocese of Los Angeles. 25 MR. HABEL: James Habel for the Archdiocese of 0010 1 Los Angeles. 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Could I have that again, a 3 little louder, please. 4 MR. HABEL: James Habel, Archdiocese of Los 5 Angeles. 6 MR. DIMARIA: Ryan Dimaria for the plaintiff. 7 MS. SOLTAN: We have our plaintiff John Doe, 8 and also plaintiff Nancy Sloan is present. 9 MR. KAUFMAN: Joe Kaufman for the plaintiff. 10 MR. De MARCO: Anthony De Marco for the 11 plaintiffs. 12 MR. SIPES: Rick Sipes for the plaintiff. 13 MS. SOLTAN: We also have a plaintiff John Doe 14 and a plaintiff *. 15 MR. HUDAK: David Hudak for the Archdiocese of 16 San Francisco, Diocese of Santa Rosa and Diocese of 17 Oakland. 18 MR. MANLY: The record should reflect that 19 Mr. Wallace and Mr. Sipe not counsel. They are here as 20 consultants. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: If I could have the court 22 reporter please swear in witness. 23 /// 24 /// 25 /// 0011 1 CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY, 2 having declared under penalty of perjury to tell the 3 truth, was examined and testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. MANLY: 6 Q. Good morning, Your Eminence. 7 MR. WOODS: Can we go off the record one second? 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. The 9 time is 10:08. 10 (An off the record discussion was held.) 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record. 12 The time is 10:08. 13 BY MR. MANLY: 14 Q. Good morning, Your Eminence. 15 A. Good morning. 16 Q. Your Eminence, have you ever been deposed 17 before? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. On several occasions; right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you understood the oath you just took 22 compels you to tell the truth? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Eminence, are you familiar with something 25 called the "Doctrine of Mental Reservation"? 0012 1 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the 2 question and instruct the witness not to answer. 3 BY MR. MANLY: 4 Q. Eminence, do you promise, regardless of any 5 obligation you have as a Father of Faith, that you will 6 testify truthfully, regardless if it's good, bad, or 7 indifferent for you or the case? 8 MR. HENNIGAN: We're going to stop this 9 deposition right now if you persist in this harassment. 10 BY MR. MANLY: 11 Q. Do you promise to tell the truth, 12 Your Eminence? 13 MR. HENNIGAN: He already did. Move on. 14 BY MR. MANLY: 15 Q. Eminence? 16 A. I already swore to that. 17 Q. Your Eminence, did you tell me when a priest 18 becomes a priest what obligations he has to his Bishop? 19 MR. WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not 20 to answer. 21 BY MR. MANLY: 22 Q. Are you going to follow that instruction, Your 23 Eminence? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you tell me if a priest takes an 0013 1 obligation of celibacy? 2 A. Correct. 3 MR. WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not 4 to answer. 5 BY MR. MANLY: 6 Q. And what is celibacy? 7 MR. WOODS: Object. Instruct the witness not 8 to answer. 9 MR. MANLY: On what grounds? 10 MR. WOODS: It's beyond the scope of the 11 deposition, as ordered by the Court. 12 MR. MANLY: Well, let me make an offer of 13 proof, Mr. Woods. Among other things in this case is 14 that the in my case and in numerous other cases 15 priests told victims that it was not a violation of the 16 vow of celibacy to, for example, masturbate or have sex 17 with them. So I want to have a clear understanding of 18 what that means. I don't think that's irrelevant. I 19 think it's clearly within the scope. And I would like 20 the witness, for the sake of the boys and girls this 21 happened to they deserve to have an answer to that 22 question. 23 MR. HENNIGAN: Why don't we stop this right 24 now and get an instruction from the Court. 25 MR. MANLY: Fine. We'll move on, and we'll 0014 1 call the Court at lunch, and we'll get an instruction. 2 MR. WOODS: The issue is not with the 3 perpetrator here. We're dealing with supervisory 4 authority. The only issues are notice and response. 5 Okay? Under the case law and under the instruction of 6 this Court, the issue is notice, did they have notice 7 and was a response proportional to the notice that they 8 received. 9 MS. SOLTAN: What are you referring to when 10 you say those are the only issues? 11 MR. WOODS: Those are the only issues and 12 scope of liability relating to this case. 13 MS. SOLTAN: Counsel, you and I had a 14 meet and confer before this deposition was scheduled, 15 in which we indicated the various items that are going 16 to be covered. And they are in no way limited to what 17 you contend to be notice and response. 18 MR. WOODS: They certainly don't cover excuses 19 and pretext by perpetrators. 20 MS. SOLTAN: Beg your pardon? 21 MR. WOODS: That was not one of the issues 22 that we discussed. 23 MS. SOLTAN: Say that again? 24 MR. HENNIGAN: Expert testimony. 25 MR. WOODS: We did not discuss the legitimacy 0015 1 of excuses proposed by offenders as a topic for 2 discussion. This is not an alleged offender. This is 3 a supervisory employee. The issues here are what did 4 he know and what did he do in response to what he knew. 5 Those are the general issues of testimony, primary 6 issues for supervisory liability in a secular content. 7 And the judge made it very clear in his order 8 that this deposition will be based upon secular 9 concepts of liability, and that's how we're going to 10 proceed. 11 MS. SOLTAN: Actually, Your Honor actually, 12 Counsel, I think what the Court did is the Court made 13 an indication that we were entitled to inquire into the 14 custom and practice with the various diocese with 15 regard to the handle of sexual abuse cases. And that 16 is what Mr. Manly is attempting to lay a foundation 17 for. And I think you are doing entirely too narrow a 18 drawing of what you consider the issues to be, which I 19 think is inappropriate. 20 MR. WOODS: We'll take it up with the judge if 21 you like, but I don't believe that's the scope of it. 22 And I think these questions these initial questions 23 are simply an attempt at harassment. 24 MS. SOLTAN: Okay. I think what we need to do 25 is we need to go off the record. Let's pull out the 0016 1 Court's order. 2 MR. MANLY: Let's not do that. 3 MS. SOLTAN: Wait a minute. Let's pull out 4 the meet and confer, and let's get the judge on the 5 telephone. And if we're not going to be laying a 6 foundation for the Cardinal's testimony, there really 7 is not a lot of point. And my perception is that this 8 is just an attempt to thwart the deposition process, 9 and I'm very concerned about that. Is that your 10 intent? 11 MR. WOODS: It's obviously not our intent. We 12 are prepared to move forward on the basis that I 13 discussed. In the court order I reviewed it very 14 recently this witness is not called as an expert 15 witness. He's not to give any hypothetical or 16 opinion type testimony. He's only to give testimony as 17 to his percipient knowledge and as to the practices and 18 policies that he adopted and he used in his various 19 supervisory roles at Fresno and in Stockton. 20 MR. SIMONS: Mr. Woods, I have the order in my 21 hand, which does not conform to your understanding. 22 Perhaps we should review it once again. I'm looking at 23 page 24 MR. WOODS: Why don't we just call the judge. 25 Let's call the judge and ask if these questions are 0017 1 appropriate. 2 MS. SOLTAN: Let's go off the record for just 3 a few minutes. Let's go out in the hall and confer. 4 Off the record, please. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record. The time 6 is 10:14. 7 (An off the record discussion was held.) 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record. The 9 time is 10:19. 10 BY MR. MANLY: 11 Q. Cardinal, when is the first time in your 12 entire life, as a layperson, as a deacon, as a priest, 13 that you ever heard of a cleric molesting a child? 14 A. The the best of my recollection would be in 15 1981. 16 Q. Would that be Father Camacho? 17 A. No. Actually, I believe it would be Father 18 Antonio Munoz. 19 Q. And when you found out that Father Munoz had 20 allegedly molested a child, did that shock you? 21 MR. WOODS: Hold on. I'm going to object to 22 the question. It's totally irrelevant as to the 23 evaluation of his conduct as a supervisor, whether he 24 was shocked, not shocked. But I'll let him answer the 25 question. 0018 1 THE WITNESS: Well, obviously, it's despicable 2 that a priest would molest a minor in any way. 3 BY MR. MANLY: 4 Q. And that was an unusual event; correct? 5 A. "Unusual," meaning? 6 Q. Well, it didn't happen every day that you had 7 a cleric under your charge that molested a child; fair? 8 A. No. You asked what the first time, and this 9 was the first time that I I recall. 10 Q. Right. So it was it was something that 11 that, you know that was significant in your mind, 12 because you'd never had to deal with it before; 13 correct? 14 A. Well, it was significant, yes. 15 Q. Yeah. And that and did and is that the 16 case where you met with the families? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. You never forgot about Father Munoz, 19 did you, Your Eminence? 20 A. What do you mean? 21 Q. Did you did you ever at any point in your 22 life forget that incident where you found out that one 23 of a priest, albeit not a diocesan priest, but a 24 priest in your diocese under your charge, molested a 25 child? 0019 1 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object. Irrelevant 2 to the subject matter. There's no difference whether 3 he forgot or didn't forget at some point in time. I'll 4 let him answer. 5 MR. MANLY: Do you want to have a running 6 objection to every question under all bases so you 7 don't have to object to every question? 8 MR. WOODS: I'll take it, but I need to voice 9 the objections anyhow. 10 MR. MANLY: Because I think what you intend to 11 do is what you did in the last deposition, which is 12 object to every single question to delay the 13 proceedings. You know what 14 MR. WOODS: If you'd ask standard questions. 15 I mean, you're obviously is it unusual, how do you 16 feel about it, those those are aren't the type of 17 questions you should be asking here. 18 MR. MANLY: Don, you know what, we've all 19 worked very hard to get here. And I would ask that you 20 behave courteously, as I am, not be nasty, not be 21 insulting, because we're going to get this done a lot 22 faster and get His Eminence out of here. 23 MR. HENNIGAN: We're going to we're going 24 to to quote a line from a movie some time ago, "If 25 you think you're being courteous, you must be from 0020 1 New York City." 2 MR. MANLY: Well, I'm certainly not from 3 Hancock Park. 4 Q. You didn't forget about Father Munoz, right, 5 Your Eminence? 6 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "forget about 7 Father Munoz." 8 Q. Well, since the first time this happened and, 9 you know, you found it despicable and you found it 10 shocking and you found it awful, and it's not something 11 you would forget; correct? 12 A. Well, I'm not sure about whether I forgot it 13 or remembered it, but I acted quickly on it. That's 14 what I remember. 15 Q. When's the next time you had a priest molest a 16 child, under your care in other words strike 17 that. 18 MR. MANLY: Just relax. Let me ask my 19 question. 20 Q. When is the next time in your career as an 21 Ordinary, Your Eminence, that you had a priest in a 22 diocese that you were in charge of molest a child? 23 A. The next time, to the best of my recollection, 24 was sometime in the early part of 1984. 25 Q. And who was that priest, Your Eminence? 0021 1 A. That was Father Antonio Camacho. 2 Q. And he was a priest in the Diocese of 3 Stockton? 4 A. Well, he was an extern priest. He didn't 5 belong to the diocese, but he was working there. 6 Q. And so the jury will understand, what is an 7 extern priest, Eminence? 8 A. An extern priest would be someone who has come 9 into the diocese, but is not officially a part of the 10 diocese through incardination. And it is assisting 11 for, usually, a limited period of time. 12 Q. Did Father was Father Munoz an extern 13 priest, as well? 14 A. Yes, he was. 15 Q. Okay. And did he have Your Eminence, so 16 the jury will understand, what are faculties as it 17 pertains to a priest? 18 A. Faculties is a term used to cover certain 19 authorizations whereby a priest can hear confessions, 20 preach, and administer the sacraments. 21 Q. Okay. So he can function as a priest of the 22 diocese; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you gave Father Camacho faculties; 25 correct? 0022 1 A. I think Father Camacho yes, I did. 2 Q. What are you looking at, Your Eminence, just 3 out of curiosity? 4 A. What I'm looking at if you recall, the 5 record of the last deposition has all the documents in 6 it. And I just simply did a time line for my own 7 from the documents, of of the dates and things. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Because these priests with one of both 10 being named Antonio and both from Mexico, to keep 11 them keep them straight. 12 Q. I see. 13 And you gave Father Camacho faculties, as 14 well? 15 A. Well, Father Munoz was in the diocese when I 16 came. So he had received faculties before, as opposed 17 to Father Camacho, who came while I was there. 18 Q. Okay. And what was the policy that you had in 19 the Diocese of Stockton for investigating extern 20 priests, if any? 21 A. At that time, it was fairly customary to have 22 some type of letter from the man's bishop or religious 23 superior saying that he was able to function in the 24 diocese. 25 Q. Did you have to have a letter from his bishop 0023 1 saying he was of good morale character and he can 2 function as a priest, something like that? 3 A. Well, in those days, the letters were much 4 more general. And the assumption was that if a priest 5 were in good standing in his diocese or religious 6 community, that was all you needed. 7 Q. Okay. Have you seen such a letter on 8 Father Camacho? 9 A. Father Camacho has a letter from I believe 10 the letter is only for Father Munoz. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know, Eminence, where the 12 Father Camacho letter is? 13 A. I don't know if there's an actual letter with 14 him or not, because he actually was serving in the 15 Diocese of Oakland before he came here. So I I just 16 suspect that most likely that was done by telephone 17 between Vicar General in Stockton and the Vicar 18 General, Chancellor in Oakland. 19 Q. Now, when you found out that Father Munoz had 20 molested a child or allegedly molested a child, did 21 you do an investigation? 22 A. Father Munoz was accused of taking young 23 people, high school aged people, to Mexico and abuse 24 them. And when that information came to me, I acted 25 very quickly to terminate his faculties and his 0024 1 assignment in the diocese. 2 Q. Your Eminence, my question is a little simpler 3 than that. I probably didn't articulate it well. 4 Did you conduct any kind of investigation or 5 inquiry upon finding out the accusation against 6 Father Munoz? 7 A. No, because Father Munoz was in Tijuana; he 8 was not in the Stockton diocese at the time. 9 Q. Now, I think you said that you did not have a 10 policy at that time regarding child sexual abuse in 11 Stockton. Is that correct? 12 A. To the best of my knowledge, we didn't have a 13 specific policy. 14 Q. Okay. Was there any procedure in place, 15 either in the Diocese of Stockton, put out by the 16 Metropolitan Diocese of San Francisco, put out by the 17 Catholic Bishops, or put out by the Vatican, that you 18 were aware of, that you were supposed to follow in the 19 event you had this type of accusation, in 1981? 20 A. Well, as far as I recall, there wasn't a 21 specific procedure in place in those days, like there 22 is today, to actually deal with these, step by step. 23 Q. When the Vatican I think it's fairly 24 you're familiar with the policies and procedures of the 25 Roman Catholic Church in America; right, Cardinal? 0025 1 A. Well, as they have as I've used them, yes. 2 Q. Right. And prior to getting to Stockton, you 3 served as a Vicar General; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you served as a Chancellor; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And is it fair to say that both of those 8 positions require some level of expertise in canon law? 9 A. I would say some level, but not not much. 10 Q. And you you had previously testified, or 11 given a declaration in a case, as an expert in canon 12 law in Monterey; correct I'm sorry, in Fresno; 13 correct? 14 A. An expert in terms of certain aspects of canon 15 law. 16 Q. Okay. Fair enough. 17 Eminence, what is an instruction when let 18 me ask the question this way: When the Vatican issues 19 an instruction on anything, what does that mean? What 20 does that word mean? 21 A. An instruction is normally some direction on 22 some matter of spiritual pastoral work in the church. 23 Q. Can it be on a matter of administrative or 24 financial matters? 25 A. I think it would be better to say that most of 0026 1 these are are matters of canon law and instruction 2 is simply clarifying or somehow amplifying what's in 3 canon law. 4 Q. Okay. And if an instruction is issued by the 5 Vatican that says this is the procedure the diocese is 6 to follow, is it your obligation as the Bishop of that 7 diocese to follow that instruction? 8 A. Well, it depends, first of all, whether we are 9 aware of the instruction, whether we've received it, 10 whether it has been explained to us what the reasons 11 are. And, usually, the Bishops' conferences around the 12 world have to interpret the instruction according to 13 the reality of their country. 14 Q. In in 1981, were you aware of the existence 15 of any type of psychological professional or 16 psychological facility that specialized in the 17 treatment of sexual disorders? 18 A. In what year? 19 Q. '81, Your Eminence. 20 A. I actually don't recall in 1981 whether I was 21 aware of that or not. 22 Q. Okay. How about in 1982, were you aware of 23 that in 1982? 24 A. I don't believe so. 25 Q. How about in 1983, were you aware of that in 0027 1 1983, Your Eminence? 2 MR. WOODS: Could I have a clarification? 3 What is the "that"? 4 MR. MANLY: I'm sorry. 5 Q. The original question was: Are you aware of 6 any professional or treatment facility, psychiatric or 7 psychological treatment facility, that specialized in 8 the treatment of sexual disorders? 9 A. I don't believe so, in that year. 10 Q. How about 1984, Your Eminence? 11 A. I simply don't recall 1984. 12 Q. You don't recall whether you knew in 1984? 13 A. I don't, in 1984. 14 Q. And how about 1985, did you become aware of 15 that in 1985? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Eminence, when is the first time, if 18 ever, that you visited the Servants of the Paraclete as 19 an Ordinary, any of their facilities? 20 A. I don't recall ever visiting. 21 Q. Have you ever visited a treatment facility, be 22 it the Servants of the Paraclete, House of Affirmation, 23 St. Luke's, as an Ordinary to hear a report or an 24 evaluation about a priest or a cleric? 25 A. During my time in Fresno and Stockton, no. 0028 1 Q. How about at any time in your career? 2 MR. WOODS: Hold on. I'm going to object to 3 that as beyond the scope of the deposition. 4 MR. MANLY: Okay. Well, all right. 5 Q. Let me let me try it this way: As a 6 Bishop, had you ever received any correspondence from 7 the Servants of the Paraclete prior to 1985? 8 A. I simply don't recall. 9 Q. Okay. Is it your testimony today that you did 10 not know prior to 1985 that the Servants of the 11 Paraclete existed? 12 A. I simply don't recall whether they I knew 13 or not. I had no contact with them. 14 Q. I'm sorry. You know, I meant to tell you 15 this. If I at any point I interrupt your answer, 16 please let me know. And if you interrupt my question, 17 and you haven't done that so far, Your Eminence, I'll 18 let you know. Okay? 19 And the other thing I meant to tell you is, if 20 at any point you need to get up, take a break, use the 21 restroom, for any reason, you stop me, okay, as long as 22 I don't have a question pending. This is not an 23 endurance contest. Okay, Your Eminence? 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Okay. Do you know what year the Servants of 0029 1 the Paraclete was founded? 2 A. No, I do not. 3 Q. And what is your understanding of what the 4 order known as the Servants of the Paraclete do? 5 MR. WOODS: You want his understanding prior 6 to roughly September 1985? 7 MR. MANLY: I want his understanding now. 8 MR. WOODS: Well, I don't think his 9 understanding now is within the scope of this 10 deposition. The only thing is what he knew, did, 11 responded to during his time in Fresno and Stockton. 12 MR. MANLY: He said he wasn't sure, so I want 13 to I want to probe it. 14 Q. And so I want to ask the question: Do you 15 know what they do? 16 A. While I was in Fresno and Stockton, I simply 17 can't recall if I'd ever heard of them or not. 18 Q. Okay. Do you know what they do? 19 MR. WOODS: You know, again, I'm going to 20 object for the record that if he knows now what they 21 do, it's not relevant to what he knew during the 22 relevant time period. 23 MS. SOLTAN: Don't argue. Just go. He's not 24 instructing. 25 MR. WOODS: Go ahead. I'll let him answer. 0030 1 MR. MANLY: What's that? 2 MR. WOODS: I'm going to let him answer the 3 question. 4 MR. MANLY: Oh, I'm I'm sorry. Okay. 5 Fine. 6 MR. WOODS: We'll go a little bit, to test 7 this. 8 BY MR. MANLY: 9 Q. You can answer, Your Eminence. 10 A. I simply don't recall the first time I heard 11 about the Servants of the Paraclete. 12 Q. In fairness, my question is a little 13 different. 14 My question is: Do you know today, 15 Cardinal Mahony, what they do? 16 MR. WOODS: Same objection. 17 You can answer. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 19 MR. MANLY: It's my mistake. 20 MR. WOODS: Just wants a general comment. 21 THE WITNESS: I believe they offer services 22 for priests, religious, I'm not sure who else, of 23 where all kinds of psychological problems and 24 problems difficulties in ministry. 25 /// 0031 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. At any point while you were the Bishop of 3 let me ask this: When you were in incardinated was 4 Monterey still Monterey Fresno or was it Monterey I 5 mean, was it Fresno at that point? 6 A. In 1962, it was the Diocese of 7 Monterey Fresno. 8 Q. Okay. And when did that change, 9 Your Eminence? 10 A. That changed in the fall of 1967. 11 Q. So for from '62 to '67, you were a priest 12 of the diocese in Monterey Fresno; right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. During that time, did your diocese, to your 15 recollection, ever receive a visit from anyone from 16 either the Servants of the Paraclete or any other 17 treatment facility, talking about their services? 18 A. Which time frame again, please. 19 Q. '62 to '67. 20 A. I don't recall any. 21 Q. Okay. And how about from '67 to 1980, did 22 anybody from the Servants of the Paraclete or any other 23 treatment facility visit your diocese and discuss with 24 you or any other member of the diocese any of their 25 services for priests? 0032 1 MR. WOODS: Okay. I wasn't quite sure. From 2 the Paracletes or any other treatment facility, whether 3 run by the Paracletes or not? 4 MR. MANLY: That's correct. 5 THE WITNESS: I simply don't recall any. 6 BY MR. MANLY: 7 Q. And is it your understanding that the Servants 8 of the Paracletes, one of the services they provide is 9 they treat or counsel or provide services to alleged 10 child abusers? 11 MR. WOODS: Now, do you want his understanding 12 when he was in Stockton and Fresno or his understanding 13 now? 14 MR. MANLY: Either one. 15 MR. WOODS: Okay. Well, I'm going to object 16 that his current understanding is irrelevant to the 17 issues involved in any of the cases during this time 18 period. And I'll let him answer with that 19 understanding to work that into your answer somehow. 20 THE WITNESS: During my time in Fresno and 21 Stockton, I was unaware of what the Paracletes did. 22 BY MR. MANLY: 23 Q. And are you aware of that now? 24 A. Of some of their services. 25 Q. Eminence, you're a member of the National 0033 1 Conference of Catholic Bishops; correct? 2 A. Well, now it's United States Conference of 3 Catholic Bishops. 4 Q. Okay. Formerly United States Catholic 5 Conference, formerly the NCCB; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And you were you became a member of 8 that umbrella organization and its predecessors and 9 successors at the time you became ordained to the 10 episcopacy; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. When is the first time you attended a 13 meeting of bishops in the United States? 14 A. I don't remember exactly. But most likely, it 15 would have been the November meeting of 1975. 16 Q. Okay. And that was shortly after you were 17 ordained an Auxiliary Bishop for Fresno? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you recall the St. Luke Institute, at 20 any time prior to 1985, being discussed at the Bishops' 21 meetings you attended? 22 A. I honestly don't recall that. 23 Q. Do you think it's possible it was discussed 24 and you just don't remember? 25 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. 0034 1 THE WITNESS: Well, normally the Conference of 2 Bishops agenda does not allow outside speakers to 3 address the Bishops. All of the business is handled by 4 Bishops. 5 BY MR. MANLY: 6 Q. Did the NCCB or its predecessor did the 7 NCCB or its predecessor entities actually originally 8 fund the founding of St. Luke's? 9 A. Could you repeat that? I'm not 10 Q. Sure. Did the Bishops, any of the Bishops' 11 umbrella organizations, actually fund St. Luke's, the 12 founding of St. Luke's? 13 A. I simply don't know. 14 Q. Okay. Do you ever recall seeing a line item 15 on the Bishops' meetings, prior to 1985 sorry. 16 Do you ever recall seeing an agenda item, a 17 line item, or any reference in any of the NCCB agendas, 18 either executive or open, referencing the issue of the 19 abuse of children the sexual abuse of children by 20 priests? 21 MR. WOODS: At any time? 22 MR. MANLY: Prior to between 1975 and 1985. 23 THE WITNESS: I simply don't recall any. 24 BY MR. MANLY: 25 Q. Okay. And I'm not including the Collegeville 0035 1 meeting, because you've talked about that. 2 Okay. So your answer was, prior to 3 Collegeville, you don't recall any? 4 A. I don't recall any. 5 Q. Is it is it your testimony there weren't 6 any, or is it your testimony that you just can't recall 7 any? 8 A. No, just my testimony that I don't recall any 9 such item. 10 Q. Okay. When did you personally first become 11 aware that child sexual abuse was a problem in society? 12 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the form of 13 the question. "Problem in society" is pretty vague in 14 general, but I'll let him answer. 15 BY MR. MANLY: 16 Q. Well, let me ask it this way: When did you 17 first learn it was not a good thing for adults to have 18 sex with children? 19 MR. WOODS: Is that facetious? 20 MR. MANLY: No. I'm trying to address your 21 objection. I'm trying to be 22 MR. WOODS: Okay. I have a problem with that 23 question, but I'll let him answer it. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, I probably from my 25 parents. 0036 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. Right. And you've known your whole life, like 3 any right thinking person, that it's wrong; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And at some point you attended and I 6 don't remember the dates, and forgive me you 7 attended Catholic University; correct? 8 A. Yes, Catholic University of America 9 Q. Right. 10 A. in Washington. 11 Q. And is Catholic University owned by the 12 Bishops? 13 A. I'm not certain. It was established by the 14 Bishops and is a separate corporation. 15 Q. I think also at one point you served on the 16 board; is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. It's a reputable institution; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you went there, and you've sent, over the 21 years, employees and priests there for various things; 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. For the School of Social Work; right? 25 MR. WOODS: Is there a School of Social Work, 0037 1 is that the question? 2 BY MR. MANLY: 3 Q. You've sent priests to the School of Social 4 Work there; correct? 5 MR. WOODS: Before 19? 6 MR. MANLY: '85. 7 MR. WOODS: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't think I sent anybody to 9 the school before 19 up to 1985. 10 BY MR. MANLY: 11 Q. Okay. Maybe Woods will give me Mr. Woods 12 will give me some leeway on this. 13 Did you send anybody after '85? 14 A. I don't recall sending anybody to social work 15 school. Other schools. 16 Q. Other Bishops you know have attended that 17 school; correct? 18 MR. WOODS: The social work school? 19 MR. MANLY: Correct. 20 Q. Like Mike Driscoll, for example? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. WOODS: I think the question is: Do you 23 know that Mike Driscoll, whoever that is 24 MR. MANLY: He he answered the question. 25 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I know two or 0038 1 three who went to Catholic University. I'm not sure 2 about Mr. Driscoll. 3 BY MR. MANLY: 4 Q. Okay. You've sent priests certainly before 5 1985, priests went to the school of canon law there; 6 right? That you knew? 7 MR. WOODS: Okay. Okay. I'm going to object 8 to the form of the question. There's a difference 9 between did you send 10 MR. MANLY: Fair that's fair. 11 Q. You were aware that priests from California 12 frequently went to Catholic University to get a 13 doctorate in canon law, fair, prior to 1985? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And you thought it was a good school; 16 right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you had a good experience there; correct? 19 A. In the School of Social Work, yes. 20 Q. Okay. Did you study the issue of child 21 welfare while you were at Catholic 22 University, Eminence? 23 A. I don't recall the curriculum exactly. But 24 the priests who went to the School of Social Work were 25 usually on a track of organization and administration. 0039 1 Q. Did you at any point have any class that in 2 any way referenced the issue of child welfare while you 3 were at Catholic University, if you remember? 4 A. To the best of my recollection, it would do 5 with with abandoned children, orphans, children from 6 broken homes. That's the best of my recollection. 7 Q. Okay. And is it it's fair to say that 8 after you left Catholic University, you obtained a 9 license in social work, correct, from California, the 10 State of California? 11 A. I don't recall whether at that point it was a 12 registration as an RSW. Then there was an LSW. I 13 don't recall the sequence, actually. 14 Q. Okay. Did you obtain some type of 15 certification, license, registration, or otherwise from 16 the State of California as a social worker? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. Okay. And from what period of time for 19 what period of time did you have such a certification, 20 Eminence? 21 A. I returned from Catholic University in 1960 22 '64. And I was in Catholic Charities until 1970. So 23 I I suspect it was during that period of time. 24 Q. Okay. Did you do any clinical work either at 25 Catholic University or in Fresno? 0040 1 A. And by "clinical work," you mean? 2 Q. Counseling? 3 A. No, because I was in the organizational 4 administrative track, and we did not do personal 5 counseling. 6 Q. Did you do so did you no counseling hours 7 whatsoever? 8 A. Very little. 9 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document 10 MR. MANLY: Would you hand one to Mr. Woods, 11 please? 12 MS. SOLTAN: Yes. 13 BY MR. MANLY: 14 Q. that I'll represent to you is the Cal State 15 University Fresno general catalog for the social work 16 department for 1965 and 1966. 17 MR. MANLY: And just show one to the Cardinal, 18 please. 19 MS. SOLTAN: Are you going to attach it? 20 MR. MANLY: Yeah, we're go ahead and attach 21 this as 1. 22 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 was marked for 23 identification.) 24 BY MR. MANLY: 25 Q. And I'd like you to look at the document, 0041 1 Your Eminence, and familiarize yourself with. 2 MR. WOODS: Do you have an exhibit number for 3 it? 4 MR. MANLY: One. 5 MS. SOLTAN: Exhibit 1. 6 MR. WOODS: Exhibit 1? 7 You want to direct his attention to a specific 8 part or do you want him to read this whole thing? 9 MR. MANLY: Actually, what I'm going to ask 10 him is what classes he taught. 11 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? 12 BY MR. MANLY: 13 Q. I'm going to ask you, Your Eminence, what 14 classes in that catalog you taught, please. So that's 15 what I'm that's where I'm going. 16 Just let me know when you're ready. 17 A. To the best of my recollection, the courses 18 you see here, I believe are required courses for social 19 work degree. The courses I taught were for people who 20 needed some segment of social welfare training for 21 another degree, for example, to be a teacher or 22 probation officer or something else. So I didn't 23 actually teach in the degree program. 24 And I didn't usually teach there at Fresno 25 State, but one of the adjunct small campuses, for 0042 1 example, Visalia. And I taught primarily, I guess what 2 you would call, on Page 221, classes like 127, Group 3 and Community Services. 4 Q. Okay. Do you remember any other classes you 5 taught, Eminence? 6 A. Again, the best of my recollection is that's 7 the only field in which I taught at all, was that field 8 of group work and community organization. 9 MR. WOODS: What what number was that? 10 MR. MANLY: 127. 11 THE WITNESS: On Page 221. 12 BY MR. MANLY: 13 Q. And did that have anything to do with the 14 the care and the care of children? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. Eminence, as the Bishop of a diocese, 17 be it Fresno well, actually, as the Bishop of the 18 Diocese of Stockton, you are, in effect, the chief 19 executive officer of the entity; correct? 20 A. Well, the term is close, but there's not an 21 exact secular term. 22 Q. Okay. But is that the closest one you're 23 comfortable with, CEO, if you had to analogize it to a 24 secular term? 25 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the word 0043 1 "comfortable with." I don't know what that means. 2 THE WITNESS: It is not a term we use in the 3 church or eclesiology. 4 BY MR. MANLY: 5 Q. Right. You use "Ordinary"; fair? 6 A. Well, we use "shepherd of the diocese," 7 basically. 8 Q. Okay. As the shepherd of the diocese, you are 9 the chief human relations officer; correct? You make, 10 ultimately, the personnel decisions for priests, 11 laypeople, et cetera, the power rests with you; fair? 12 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the form of 13 the question. There's about four questions in there. 14 But I'll let him answer it. 15 BY MR. MANLY: 16 Q. You can answer. 17 A. Well, there are many people in a diocese who 18 are delegated to retain and terminate personnel. 19 Pastors, school principals. There are a number of 20 people involved at various levels that have delegated 21 authority. 22 Q. But you, ultimately, have the authority. If 23 you choose to delegate it, that's your business, but 24 it's your authority; correct? 25 A. Ultimately, I I suppose canonically, it 0044 1 would be my authority. 2 MS. SOLTAN: I apologize. I didn't hear that 3 answer. Could I ask the reporter to state the answer. 4 MR. WOODS: Could we have the question back, 5 too. 6 (The record was read as follows: 7 "But you, ultimately, have the authority. 8 if you choose to delegate it, that's 9 your business, but it's your authority; 10 correct? 11 Answer, Ultimately, I I suppose 12 canonically, it would be my authority." 13 BY MR. MANLY: 14 Q. Was there a custom and practice in the diocese 15 of Stockton I understand you said there wasn't a 16 policy. But was there a practice or custom in the 17 Diocese of Stockton that you established when you got 18 there, on dealing with child sexual abuse by employees 19 of the diocese? 20 A. No. Since no. 21 Q. Was there is a custom and practice that you 22 were aware of, either as a priest or a Bishop, an 23 Auxiliary Bishop of the Diocese of Fresno, when you 24 were there, to deal with child sexual abuse? 25 A. No, to the best of my recollection, there was 0045 1 not. 2 Q. Have you ever heard the term, Your Eminence, 3 "oral history" in relationship to dealing with the 4 transfer of alleged priest perpetrators? 5 MR. WOODS: Hold on. Could I hear that back? 6 MR. MANLY: I'll repeat it. 7 Q. Have you ever heard the term "oral history" in 8 connection with the transfer of a Bishop of an alleged 9 priest perpetrator? 10 MR. WOODS: Are you say oral, O R A L? 11 MR. MANLY: O R A L, yes, sir. 12 MR. WOODS: Oral history? 13 MR. MANLY: Correct, that's what I'm saying. 14 MR. WOODS: As a term of art of some kind? 15 MR. MANLY: I think the question stands. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, you talked about in 17 your question, about the transfer of a Bishop. 18 BY MR. MANLY: 19 Q. Did I say Bishop? I meant priest. I 20 apologize. 21 Have you heard, as a Bishop 22 A. Could you yes. 23 Q. Yeah, I'll restate it. Fine. 24 As a Bishop, have you ever heard the term 25 "oral history" associated with the transfer of an 0046 1 alleged perpetrator priest? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Have you ever decided, either in Stockton or 4 Fresno or any time prior to 1985, when you were dealing 5 with a perpetrator, not to document the file entirely, 6 but rather communicate orally to your subordinates or 7 your successor Bishops regarding that abuse? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. And you've never heard the term "oral 10 history" being advocated as a way to conceal the abuse 11 of a priest; is that fair, Your Eminence? 12 A. That's correct. I have not heard of that. 13 Q. Okay. When did you first learn that there 14 were treatment facilities available for Bishops to send 15 priests, either for evaluation or treatment, that had 16 been accused of child molestation? 17 MR. WOODS: If it was before 18 BY MR. MANLY: 19 Q. I just want to know 20 MR. WOODS: September of 1985. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall exactly, but I 22 I recall certainly, in June of 1985. 23 MR. MANLY: We'll attach we'll attach this 24 document as next in order. 25 Can you give Mr. Woods a copy, please? 0047 1 MS. SOLTAN: Which one are we talking about? 2 Okay. 3 This is Exhibit 2? 4 MR. MANLY: Yeah. 5 Q. Would you take a moment to look at the 6 document, Your Eminence. 7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 MR. MANLY: When your counsel's done, I'll... 10 MR. WOODS: John, could you read the second 11 word of the second line, after "monastery"? 12 MR. MANLY: It's inaugurate. 13 MR. WOODS: Inaugurate? 14 MR. MANLY: Yeah. 15 MR. WOODS: Okay. 16 BY MR. MANLY: 17 Q. Eminence, do you have you ever seen this 18 document before? 19 A. To the best of my recollection, no. 20 Q. While you were a priest, an Auxiliary Bishop, 21 or a Bishop, did any of the dioceses you worked for, to 22 your knowledge, receive any type of communication like 23 this, a periodic memo from the Servants of the 24 Paraclete? 25 A. Not that I'm aware of. 0048 1 Q. Well, in Stockton, for example, if the memo 2 was to all Archbishops and Bishops and it came to the 3 diocese 4 MR. HENNIGAN: That's not what it says. 5 MR. MANLY: It says, "To all Archbishops, 6 Bishops, Abbots, and major superiors of men" 7 MR. HENNIGAN: "Of men resident at." 8 MR. MANLY: I understand. 9 Q. If a document was sent to an Archbishop or a 10 Bishop, okay, and it was addressed to the Diocese of 11 Stockton, would it have been the Diocese of Stockton's 12 custom and practice, as you understand it, to route 13 that to you? 14 A. Well, since we had no one at Via Coeli, we 15 wouldn't probably not have received this. 16 Q. No. My question's a little different. 17 If there was a document from a religious 18 order, be it the Servants of the Paraclete, the 19 Jesuits, whoever, and it was routed to a Bishop, okay, 20 it said addressed to the Bishop, didn't name him by 21 name but was addressed to him, would it be the custom 22 and practice of the Diocese of Stockton to have that 23 document routed to you, as the Bishop? 24 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object. 1968. Have 25 we established whether he was a Bishop? 0049 1 MR. MANLY: No. 2 MR. WOODS: So if he's not 3 MR. MANLY: I think my question's clear. 4 MR. WOODS: the Bishop, how does he know? 5 BY MR. MANLY: 6 Q. From 1980 to 1985, you got a document like 7 this (indicating), okay, not this document but a 8 document like it, would it have been the custom and 9 practice of the Diocese of Stockton to route that 10 document to you? 11 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object. In 1968, was 12 he even in Stockton? 13 MS. SOLTAN: He said between '80 and '85. 14 MR. HENNIGAN: I don't know what a "document 15 like this" is. What is a "document like this"? A 16 letter? 17 MR. MANLY: You can answer, Eminence. 18 MR. WOODS: Okay. I'm going to object to the 19 form of the question in that it's no foundation to ask 20 him what's the custom and practice in a place where he 21 isn't at at the time. 22 BY MR. MANLY: 23 Q. How about this question: If the document says 24 "Bishop, to the Bishop," Eminence, would the document 25 be routed to you in the Diocese of Stockton from 1980 0050 1 to '85? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Great. Thank you. 4 Have you ever met Father Feit? 5 A. The the name is not familiar. And to the 6 best of my recollection, no, I have not met him. 7 Q. Have you ever met Father Liam of the Servants 8 of the Paraclete? 9 A. Is there more name than Father Liam? 10 Q. Liam Hoare, H O A R E? 11 A. I simply don't recall. 12 Q. What documents would assist you in recalling 13 whether you ever met anyone from the Servants of the 14 Paraclete prior to 1985? 15 A. I'm not really sure what documents would. 16 Q. Have you let me ask it this way. Let me 17 ask you this question: When you found out that 18 Father Munoz, in '81, had been accused of molesting a 19 priest, how did you know what to do? I'm sorry, 20 accused of molesting a child, not a priest. Forgive 21 me. 22 A. Well, Father Munoz's situation, we had very 23 specific victims, not just one, but several, who came 24 forward with their parents and all together confirmed 25 what had happened to them in Tijuana. So I didn't 0051 1 really didn't need anything further. They all 2 corroborated their their stories, or testimonies. 3 And I took immediate action to terminate his faculties 4 and his assignment at that that very day. 5 Q. Well, how did you how did you know that was 6 the right thing to do? 7 A. I knew that we wanted priests serving in our 8 parishes who were not going to be a danger to anybody. 9 Q. And is that the measure you used, if somebody 10 was a danger, they weren't going to serve in a parish? 11 A. Either fulfilling their ministry as they're 12 supposed to or or somehow creating a difficulty in 13 some way. 14 Q. Okay. If you thought a priest was a danger to 15 a child in 1981, it was your custom and practice, 16 Roger Mahony, the Bishop of Stockton, not to allow that 17 priest to minister in a parish; is that right? 18 MR. WOODS: Could I hear it back, please, 19 before you answer. 20 (The record was read as follows: 21 "If you thought a priest was a danger 22 to a child in 1981, it was your custom 23 and practice, Roger Mahony, the Bishop 24 of Stockton, not to allow that priest 25 to administer in a parish; is that 0052 1 right?") 2 MR. MANLY: Actually, it's "minister in a 3 parish." 4 REPORTER: Minister. Okay. 5 MR. WOODS: I have a problem with "custom and 6 practice," in that you've heard the testimony already 7 that he had one incident in '81; the next one was in 8 '84. And we don't know how many there are from '84 9 until the end. You haven't established that yet. But 10 it's hard to say there's a custom and practice for 11 anything if you only have one or two instances. So 12 MR. MANLY: Let me let me try it another 13 way. 14 Q. As of 1981, when you dealt with Father Munoz, 15 was it your personal practice, your personal judgment, 16 in your mind, as the Ordinary of the diocese, that if 17 you thought that someone was a danger, you know, they 18 were not going to serve in a parish in a diocese where 19 you were the Bishop? Is that right? 20 A. Well, not proven danger. In this case, we had 21 actual victims we could identify and believed. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. So that's that's the danger we had. 24 Q. So if a victim came to you 25 MR. WOODS: Wait. 0053 1 MR. MANLY: Hold on. Let me ask the question. 2 Q. If a victim came to you, told you that a 3 priest had abused them, as of 1981, and you believed 4 them, that priest wasn't going to minister in a parish, 5 is that the standard that you, Roger Mahony, used as 6 Bishop of Stockton? 7 MR. WOODS: Okay. I'm going to object to the 8 form of the question in that you're suggesting in the 9 question that he had a thought out custom and practice 10 or policy. You can ask him that question 11 MR. MANLY: I'm just trying to 12 MR. WOODS: but 13 MR. MANLY: Actually 14 MR. WOODS: he's already testified that 15 there were 16 MR. MANLY: My question is real simple. 17 MR. WOODS: no policies or procedures up to 18 that point in time. 19 The first case he ever had was the case you're 20 talking about. Okay? So you're trying to illicit a 21 policy out of one case. And I'm going to let him 22 answer the question, but I object to the form of the 23 question. 24 MS. SOLTAN: This is ridiculous. Object and 25 move on. 0054 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. You can answer. 3 A. Well, in the case of Father Munoz, we had very 4 specific allegations confirmed by credible testimony. 5 And I took action. 6 Q. Was it your testimony is it is it your 7 understanding, your world view, Roger Mahony as Bishop 8 of Stockton, as of that time, after Munoz, when 9 somebody came to you and said, I was molested by 10 Father X, and you believed them, at that point and 11 you thought it was true, at that point, was that priest 12 not allowed to minister in the diocese? 13 MR. WOODS: Up to the end of your term in 14 Fresno. 15 MR. MANLY: No, Stockton. 16 MR. WOODS: Stockton, sorry. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, if we had credible 18 evidence, the priests would be dealt with in some way 19 to either ascertain, corroborate the evidence. Or if 20 it's if we had sufficient evidence that it was true, 21 then we would remove him. 22 BY MR. MANLY: 23 Q. Okay. And in the interim I you know, I 24 noticed you said we dealt with it quickly. You 25 suspended Father Munoz's faculties that day, right, or 0055 1 shortly thereafter? 2 A. I believe it was that same day. 3 Q. Okay. So as of 1981, was it your personal 4 view, Your Eminence, that if you had a credible 5 allegation against a priest, or an allegation that you 6 weren't sure was credible but needed to be 7 investigated, that you would pull that priest from 8 ministry, from the parish, and investigate that claim? 9 A. No. My testimony was that if I had credible 10 evidence corroborated, and we had victims that we could 11 talk to, then we would take decisive action. 12 Q. How did you decide those victims were 13 credible, Eminence? 14 A. I didn't meet with these victims myself. 15 Q. Okay. Who did? 16 A. Father Fernando Villalobos. 17 Q. And he was the Hispanic vicar, or the 18 equivalent of? 19 A. Yes, that's correct. 20 Q. Okay. Father Father Villalobos met with 21 them. And did he tell you he believed them? 22 A. They came to him, the parents and several 23 children, or high school young people, came to him 24 because they knew him as a vicar for the Spanish 25 speaking. 0056 1 Q. If a child in a parish if a young adult, 2 13 , 14 , 15 year old, came to you or came to somebody 3 that worked for you in the diocese and said, 4 "Father Jones molested me, he hurt me, he raped me," 5 was it your practice, Eminence, as of '81, because of 6 your experience with Father Munoz, to remove that 7 priest from ministry if you believed it? 8 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the term 9 "practice," in view of the fact that the testimony is 10 there was only one incident in his entire career as a 11 priest up to that time that he had to deal with. Hard 12 to call anything a practice at that point in time. 13 BY MR. MANLY: 14 Q. Well, was that your view of the appropriate 15 thing to do? 16 A. Given the circumstances of Father 17 Antonio Munoz, it was. 18 Q. Okay. Can you think of a circumstance where 19 there's a credible allegation of abuse can you think 20 of a circumstance where there's a credible allegation 21 of abuse that you encountered from '80 to '85 where it 22 wasn't appropriate to remove the priest from ministry? 23 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. Calls for 24 an opinion. And I'm going to instruct him not to 25 answer it as phrased. 0057 1 MR. MANLY: I guess we'll talk to the judge 2 about that one. 3 Q. If someone came to you had come to you 4 well, let me ask it this way: The next allegation that 5 you recall occurred when? 6 A. The next allegation involved Father 7 Antonio Camacho, and it was the early part of 1984. 8 Q. And did you handle that case differently? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How was it different? 11 A. It was different to the extent that the 12 parents and the children, high school young people, 13 made an appointment to come see me personally. 14 Q. Okay. So how you found out about the 15 allegation was different; correct? 16 MR. WOODS: That's what he said. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. MANLY: 19 Q. And did you handle the allegation in terms of 20 how you dealt with the priest administratively 21 differently than you handled the Munoz allegation? 22 A. A little differently. 23 Q. How quickly did you take him out of ministry, 24 Eminence? 25 A. Immediately. 0058 1 Q. So to that extent, you handled it the same 2 way; you believed the allegation, you thought he was a 3 danger to kids, and you removed him; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. So at that point in your world view as 6 a Bishop and as a human being, as a supervisor of 7 people who teach kids 8 MR. WOODS: I object to the form of the 9 question. 10 MR. MANLY: I haven't finished it. 11 MR. WOODS: It's already it's already 12 objectionable. "World view," we're not going to answer 13 that question. 14 MR. MANLY: What okay. How can I ask him 15 if he what I want to ask him, you tell me how to ask 16 the question. 17 I want to ask him if he thought somebody was a 18 child molester as of 1984, did they need to be pulled 19 out of ministry. That's what I want to ask. Can I ask 20 that question? 21 MR. WOODS: Phrase it that way. 22 MR. MANLY: I just did. 23 Q. Can you answer the question, please? 24 MR. WOODS: Do you understand the question? 25 Read it back, Ms. Reporter. 0059 1 MR. MANLY: Read it back so his Eminence can 2 understand it, please. 3 THE REPORTER: The last one you just spoke? 4 MR. MANLY: Yeah. 5 (The record was read as follows: 6 "I want to ask him if he thought 7 somebody was a child molester as 8 of 1984, did they need to be pulled 9 out of ministry. That's what I want 10 to ask. Can I ask that question?") 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, if we had evidence that he 12 was a child molester. 13 BY MR. MANLY: 14 Q. Okay. And when you say "evidence," what do 15 you mean? 16 A. I mean particularly having victims, facts and 17 information corroborated by others to sustain the 18 the allegation. 19 Q. Okay. And you would agree that accusing a 20 priest of something that's horrific as molesting a 21 little child is a is a pretty serious allegation; 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does it get any more serious than that, 25 Eminence? 0060 1 MR. WOODS: I object to the form of the 2 question. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, all sinfulness against 4 someone else is serious. 5 BY MR. MANLY: 6 Q. As a priest and as a Bishop, and you're an 7 administrator at schools, you feel as an administrator, 8 you have an obligation to protect kids; correct? 9 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the form of 10 the question. And I'm going to explain why. When you 11 say "as a Bishop, as an administrator, as" 12 MR. MANLY: I'll rephrase it. 13 MR. WOODS: is that some special thing 14 other than being just a normal human being? 15 MR. MANLY: Well, in my opinion it is. I'm a 16 Catholic. I believe Bishops are successors to the 17 apostle. So I think it is special. Okay? 18 MR. WOODS: All right. So you think so 19 you're asking for some opinion other than just what a 20 normal human being would would react. 21 MR. MANLY: No. I want to know I'll 22 rephrase it so your secular 23 MR. WOODS: Because I don't want any expert 24 opinions here, which is beyond the scope of this 25 deposition. 0061 1 MR. SIMONS: I think that's a 2 misinterpretation of what the judge's order is. 3 MR. MANLY: I forgot what the question was. 4 MR. WOODS: The question's also very 5 argumentative. 6 MR. MANLY: That hurts me. 7 MR. WOODS: I'm sure you've heard that 8 objection before. 9 MR. MANLY: Once or twice. 10 MS. SOLTAN: Let's be civil, gentleman. 11 MR. MANLY: Okay. 12 MR. HENNIGAN: He judges the quality of his 13 exam by how often he gets that objection. 14 MR. MANLY: What was my last question? 15 Q. Cardinal, are you doing okay? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. We'll take a break in about five minutes. All 18 right? 19 A. Fine. 20 Q. Okay. 21 MR. WOODS: The question was simply, do you 22 think it's bad, or is this a bad thing. 23 MR. MANLY: That was much more argumentative 24 than that. 25 MR. WOODS: Yeah, it was. 0062 1 (The record was read as follows: 2 "As a priest and as a Bishop and as 3 an administrator at schools, you feel 4 as an administrator, you have an 5 obligation to protect kids; correct?") 6 MR. MANLY: Let me let me reask it. 7 Q. As the Bishop, you are the head of the 8 Catholic schools of the diocese; correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And as the head of the Catholic 11 schools, you recognize you have young children through 12 high school that are under the diocese's care; fair? 13 A. Yes, that would be fair. 14 Q. Okay. And being mindful of that, if you had a 15 reasonable belief that one of your priests had used 16 that office to sexually assault a child, that is a very 17 serious thing; wouldn't you agree? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And it's among the most serious things you 20 ever had to deal with as a Bishop from 1985 and before; 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And it's a very painful thing for you to deal 24 with; correct? 25 A. Yes. 0063 1 Q. Painful as a priest; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Painful as a human being; correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Painful for the families of the victim and the 6 victim themselves; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Okay. And as of when you were the Bishop of 9 Stockton, you wanted to do everything in your power, I 10 take it, to make sure that never happened to a child; 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. And so in the first two examples we 14 discussed, what you did when you believed that those 15 people hurt those children, you removed them from 16 ministry; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. At any point while you were the Bishop 19 of Stockton, did your view on how to handle child sex 20 abuse cases change? In other words, if you had a 21 credible allegation, you believed it, you had evidence, 22 to use your term, you would remove them from ministry 23 immediately? 24 A. Yes, evidence including victims. 25 Q. Okay. And if you had those things, your view 0064 1 on what you were going to do and your practice was to 2 pull that priest out of ministry because they they 3 were they posed a danger to kids? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, I know you've heard the term before and I 6 suspect you thought I was going to bring it up today, 7 of "secret archives"; right? 8 A. I've heard 9 MR. WOODS: Wait. Hold on. What's the 10 question? You've heard it before or you expected me to 11 bring it up today? The second one is irrelevant, and 12 I'll instruct him not to answer. The first one, I'll 13 let him answer. 14 BY MR. MANLY: 15 Q. You've heard of the secret archives before, 16 Your Eminence; right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. And I read your deposition, and I think 19 you said the better term for it would be "confidential 20 archives"; right? 21 A. Probably even better, limited or restricted 22 access files. 23 Q. Fine. You did you prepared 24 documentation I think you have some in front of 25 you on both the Camacho case and the Munoz case; 0065 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And when those cases came up, did you 4 access the secret archives to determine, or the 5 confidential archives or restricted archives, to 6 determine whether or not there had been any prior 7 allegations against them? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you prepare any confidential memorandum 10 regarding any of those cases? 11 A. In the case of Antonio Camacho, I did prepare 12 a memorandum from my notes. 13 Q. Okay. And did it say "confidential" on the 14 top? 15 A. I'd have to look. I don't 16 Q. Feel free. 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Yes, it says "confidential file memorandum." 19 Q. Okay. And, Eminence, that memorandum, which 20 we'll attach a copy of later, has "confidential" on it, 21 meaning it should go to the secret archives, correct, 22 or the confidential archives or the restricted 23 archives, whatever you want to call it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And why is that? 0066 1 A. That's because there are a lot of people who 2 work in the chancery office. And personnel files of 3 this matter, these kinds of issues, are not in public 4 domain; and therefore, we need to protect those 5 because, particularly in this one, the names of the 6 victims were in it. And we wanted to make sure the 7 victims were protected so that the access would be 8 limited. 9 Q. So you're trying to protect the victims by 10 putting them in secrete archives; is that it? 11 A. In this case particularly. 12 Q. Okay. Let me attach a copy of that and let me 13 show you my copy and make sure that it's what you have. 14 Okay, Your Eminence? 15 The memo I have is dated Don, do you have a 16 copy of that? 17 MR. WOODS: I do, but I don't have 18 MR. MANLY: Let me let me get you one. 19 MR. WOODS: I have the unredacted version. 20 MS. SOLTAN: Don't you have the unredacted 21 version? 22 MR. WOODS: I do. He doesn't. 23 MR. MANLY: We'll just use his. That's fine. 24 Q. The only thing that's redacted in there, 25 Eminence, is the names of the victims; is that right? 0067 1 And in fairness, you may want to look at Page 3 before 2 you answer that question. 3 MR. WOODS: Wait wait to see their exhibit. 4 It might be different than yours. 5 MR. MANLY: Okay? Well, I think 6 MR. WOODS: Is this the copy from the 7 deposition in the 8 MR. MANLY: Yeah, it's the copy you provided 9 us. 10 MR. WOODS: American General case? 11 MR. MANLY: Yeah. And I think that there's 12 some attorney client material that may be redacted on 13 page 3, because it says "Mr. Shepherd," and then it's 14 redacted. So the redactions 15 MR. WOODS: Here. I want you to look at this 16 version. 17 Do you have another version for us? 18 MS. SOLTAN: Yes, I do. Another version or 19 another copy? 20 MR. WOODS: Another copy for me. 21 MS. SOLTAN: I do. 22 BY MR. MANLY: 23 Q. Do you want some water, Your Eminence? 24 A. No, thank you. I have some right here. 25 Q. Okay. 0068 1 MR. MANLY: Don, are you ready? 2 MR. WOODS: And just so you understand, these 3 redactions, I think were made in the process of the 4 litigation. 5 MR. MANLY: I know. I don't think he had 6 anything to do with them. 7 MR. WOODS: All right. 8 MR. MANLY: Don, are you ready? 9 MR. WOODS: Yeah. 10 MR. MANLY: Okay. We'll attach this document 11 as next in order. So it will be Exhibit 2 3. Thank 12 God you're here. Exhibit 3. 13 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. MANLY: 16 Q. And this is the confidential memorandum you 17 prepared, Eminence? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you type this yourself, sir? 20 A. I honestly don't remember. 21 Q. If you didn't type it, who would have? 22 A. Most likely, my secretary. 23 Q. Who was? 24 A. Angie Alexander. 25 Q. You knew how to type; correct, sir? 0069 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Did you sometimes type your own 3 material? 4 A. Sometimes. 5 Q. Okay. I think your testimony was that in this 6 memo, the primary reason you made it confidential was 7 to protect the identity of victims. Is that accurate? 8 A. That was one of the main reasons. 9 Q. Okay. What were the other reasons? 10 A. That this was limited to the eyes of just 11 certain people in the office so we didn't want it 12 floating about. 13 Q. Have you ever heard the term "internal forum" 14 associated with your work as the Bishop of Stockton? 15 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the form of 16 the question and ask for religious beliefs policies. 17 MR. MANLY: No, I'm not. I'm asking as he's 18 ever 19 MR. WOODS: I'm instructing him not to answer. 20 Put it on the list. 21 MR. MANLY: You're instructing him not to 22 answer if he's ever heard of the term? 23 THE WITNESS: Internal forum is a religious 24 term. 25 MR. MANLY: So can I say, have you ever 0070 1 heard 2 MR. WOODS: It has nothing to do with the 3 liability 4 MR. MANLY: No, it does. 5 MR. WOODS: of an institution. 6 MR. MANLY: And you know it does. 7 MR. WOODS: No, I don't. 8 MR. MANLY: It does. You know what it is, 9 it's the system of secrecy that allowed this to go on. 10 It's part of it. You know it. I know it. And that's 11 why you're instructing him not to answer. 12 And you know what, Mr. Woods, there's a lot of 13 people there's a lot of people, victims here that 14 have come a long way to hear him discuss it, ,and I'm 15 sure he's willing to discuss it. And you should let 16 him, because these boys and girls deserve an answer. 17 MR. WOODS: And I'm sure if you're right, the 18 judge will instruct us. But I think it's a religious 19 term and a religious concept 20 MR. MANLY: How do you know? 21 MR. WOODS: beyond the scope of this of 22 this deposition. 23 MR. MANLY: How do you know what's religious 24 and what isn't? 25 MR. HENNIGAN: Are you still being courteous? 0071 1 MR. MANLY: Not to Mr. Woods. 2 MR. WOODS: I'm going to instruct him not to 3 answer. So let's just move on. 4 MR. MANLY: It's just wrong. I don't mind 5 objections. I don't mind doing this, but coming here 6 and intentionally thwarting this, intentionally doing 7 this, putting us through this without any intention of 8 asking letting me ask meaningful questions is wrong. 9 MR. WOODS: Tell it to the judge. I think 10 we'll get a ruling on it, and that's the professional 11 way to handle it. 12 BY MR. MANLY: 13 Q. Were the police investigating this case, 14 Eminence, when you wrote this memo? 15 A. I don't think at the very time that this memo 16 was written that the police were involved. 17 Q. So your recollection, as you sit here today, 18 is the police were not involved as of 19 February 15th, '84? 20 A. No. This was done the very same day that they 21 came to see me. 22 Q. Who is "they"? The victims? 23 A. The parents and the victims. 24 Q. Okay. Can you read at Page 4, the paragraph 25 beginning, "After Father Camacho and Father Villalobos 0072 1 left my office, I placed a call to the Diocese of 2 Oakland"? Can you read that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would you read it out loud and into the 5 record, that paragraph and the paragraph below it, 6 Your Eminence. 7 A. "After Father Camacho and Father Villalobos 8 left my office, I placed a call to the 9 Diocese of Oakland to share what had happened. 10 No diocesan official was available at that 11 time. 12 Then Father Fernando called me on the 13 intercom to advise me that Father Camacho had 14 told him he intended to go to Union City, 15 California, not to Mexico. He told Father 16 Fernando he would be at this address: 4096 17 Marston Avenue, Union City, California 94587." 18 Q. Okay. And your recollection is, is that the 19 police were not involved at this point? 20 A. At that day, yes. 21 Q. Can you look at Page 2, Your Eminence, of the 22 document? Can you read the third to the last 23 paragraph, beginning "Both Mr. Blank, the boys"? 24 A. "Both Mr. Blank, the boys, and the lady 25 then stated that it was their intention to go 0073 1 to the police and report Father Camacho. 2 However, they felt that it was important to 3 speak with me, the Bishop, first about these 4 matters." 5 Q. Your Eminence, did you try and dissuade these 6 boys from going to the police? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was anybody else in the room while you spoke 9 to them, besides the victims and their families? 10 A. I don't believe so. 11 Q. Do you have a do you have a pretty good 12 recollection of that meeting? 13 A. Well, I have my handwritten notes from which 14 the this (indicating) was prepared. 15 Q. Okay. But your notes and your do you 16 remember where the meeting took place? 17 A. I believe it was in the Bishop's office in 18 Stockton. 19 Q. Okay. And your recollection you recall 20 when it took place and approximately the time of day, 21 et cetera? 22 A. Well, I begin on Page 1 by giving "9:15 a.m. 23 today." 24 Q. Somebody read the document. Okay. 25 Look at this last paragraph, Eminence, and 0074 1 read it into the record, please. 2 MR. WOODS: The last paragraph on the last 3 page? 4 MR. MANLY: I'm sorry, Page 2, same page we're 5 on. 6 THE WITNESS: Page 2? The last full paragraph 7 on that page? 8 BY MR. MANLY: 9 Q. The paragraph that begins, "They then stated 10 they would not." 11 A. "They then stated that they would not take 12 any legal action if Father Camacho were to 13 leave the parish and the country at once, and 14 if he returned to his native diocese, San Juan 15 De Los Lagos, in Jalisco, Mexico." 16 Q. All right. So why would you discuss whether 17 they were going to take legal action in your document? 18 A. I was simply trying to record on the record 19 what they told me. 20 Q. Did you care whether they took legal action? 21 MR. WOODS: Object to the form of the 22 question. Irrelevant to the subject matter. 23 You can answer. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, I thought that it would be 25 helpful if the actual victims did speak to the police 0075 1 directly. 2 BY MR. MANLY: 3 Q. So your testimony is you encouraged them to 4 speak to the police? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did you speak to the police? 7 A. I did. 8 Q. And did you tell the police everything you 9 knew about Father Camacho that you thought might be of 10 assistance? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. Okay. Did you when you spoke to the 13 police, you were truthful with them; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you didn't hold anything back you thought 16 might be important; is that right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document we'll attach 19 as Exhibit 4. And it's a letter dated 20 March 16th, 1984. And I'd like you to read that into 21 the record, please. 22 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4 was marked for 23 identification.) 24 THE WITNESS: You would like me to read the 25 letter into the record? 0076 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. Well, let me ask you a question first. And 3 then I'll have you read it. 4 Have you seen this document before, Eminence? 5 A. Yes, I have. 6 Q. Is it a letter? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. And did you prepare it, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And your I see there's an RM:aa at the 11 bottom, under the signature line? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Does that indicate your secretary typed it? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And then can you read you don't have 16 to read the address, but start at "Dear Captain House." 17 Would you read that into the record, please, 18 Your Eminence. 19 A. Okay. The letter is March 16, 1984. 20 "Dear Captain House, I wish to acknowledge 21 our telephone conversation of Thursday, March 22 15th, with respect to the Reverend Antonio 23 Camacho. I am pleased that you were able to 24 speak with him directly in your office, and 25 that as a result of that conversation, he 0077 1 made plans to return immediately to his 2 diocese in Mexico. 3 "I am hopeful that he will follow through 4 on this arrangement and that he will receive 5 the special treatment and counseling which 6 he definitely needs. 7 "As an added safeguard, I'm sending a 8 personal letter to all of the Bishops in 9 the western states, advising them to not 10 grant faculties nor an initial assignment 11 to Father Camacho in their diocese. 12 "As soon as I hear from the Bishop of San 13 Juan De Los Lagos that Father Camacho has 14 arrived there, I shall advise you. 15 "Thanking you for your assistance in 16 this delicate case, and with kindest 17 personal regards, I am sincerely yours in 18 Christ." 19 Q. And then your signature; right? 20 A. Then my signature. 21 Q. Okay. Now, you knew at that point that 22 Father Camacho wasn't going to Mexico; right? 23 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't recall exactly when I 25 knew he was not going to return. 0078 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. Well, doesn't your letter of February 3 15th, '84, say he's in Union City, which is in the 4 Diocese of Oakland? 5 MR. WOODS: The letter speaks for itself. 6 THE WITNESS: Between February 15th and 7 March 15th, there were there were conversations with 8 the Modesto police department, and the division 9 commander himself actually interviewed Father Camacho. 10 So the latest of March 16th was that Father Camacho 11 told Captain House that he was going back to Mexico. 12 BY MR. MANLY: 13 Q. Did you ever give the Modesto Police 14 Department the address in Union City where 15 Father Camacho was? 16 A. I don't recall, but most likely I did. 17 Q. Is there a reason you didn't put it in the 18 letter? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you ever direct Monsignor Cain to give the 21 address to Captain House? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you ever ask the Diocese of Oakland to 24 tell the police that there was a molester in their 25 diocese and a priest who was living in their diocese 0079 1 who had been credibly accused of child molestation? 2 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. Assumes 3 facts not in evidence that he was in the location 4 indicated in the earlier memo. I'll let him answer. 5 BY MR. MANLY: 6 Q. Do you remember the question? 7 A. No. 8 MR. MANLY: Okay. Why don't you ask it. I 9 mean ask it why don't you repeat it back, 10 Ms. Reporter. 11 (The record was read as follows: 12 "Did you ever ask the Diocese of Oakland 13 to tell the police that there was a 14 molester in their diocese and a priest 15 who was living in their diocese who had 16 been credibly accused of child 17 molestation?") 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I was reading 19 another document, Counsel. Could you please repeat 20 that again. 21 BY MR. MANLY: 22 Q. Sure. No problem, Your Eminence. 23 (The record was read as follows: 24 "Did you ever ask the Diocese of Oakland 25 to tell the police that there was a 0080 1 molester in their diocese and a priest 2 who was living in their diocese who had 3 been credibly accused of child 4 molestation?") 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. MANLY: 7 Q. You told the diocese to tell the police? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who did you tell? 10 A. I did not personally, but my Vicar General 11 did. 12 Q. Okay. Did you ever is it your sworn 13 testimony, Cardinal, that you told Captain House of the 14 Modesto Police Department that Camacho was living as a 15 free man in Union City, California? 16 A. Again, I don't recall I met with 17 Captain House once, and talked to him on the phone. So 18 I don't remember specifically. But I do recall making 19 him alert to the fact, and that our office called the 20 Diocese of Oakland to alert the Fremont police about 21 this matter. 22 Q. Why didn't you just call the Fremont police or 23 direct Cain to call the Fremont police? 24 A. Well, I thought it would be better for Cain to 25 talk to his counterpart in Oakland, because recall, 0081 1 Camacho had been in Oakland already, and that it would 2 be better if the Oakland diocese informed the police 3 and, also, that the Oakland diocese be aware that this 4 man is wandering around. 5 Q. You know, I noticed in your letter you say you 6 wrote a letter to all the Bishops warning not to 7 warning the diocese not to give him faculties. Do you 8 have a copy of that letter? 9 A. I don't have it here, but I have seen it 10 somewhere in this documentation. 11 Q. Eminence, do you have your desk calendars from 12 the years you were in Stockton? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. Did you ever ask Monsignor Weber to retrieve 15 those? 16 A. Monsignor Weber would not have had those. 17 Q. They're not in the archives in L.A.? 18 A. I actually don't remember what kind of 19 calendar system I used when I was in Stockton. So I 20 don't know whether it was small, monthly, a yearly. I 21 simply can't recall what kind of system I used. 22 Q. And your testimony is that you did not keep 23 those? 24 A. Anything like that would have gone to the 25 archives in Stockton. 0082 1 Q. Okay. Have you made a asked them to make a 2 search to see if they can find them? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what did they tell you? 5 A. They told me no, that they could not find 6 anything like that. 7 Q. When did you ask them to search for those? 8 A. I don't recall, but it was in the last year or 9 two. 10 Q. So in other words, 2004 or 2003? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Okay. Did you meet with Captain House before 13 you spoke to him on the phone or vice versa? 14 A. I believe I did because I had his card, and 15 that's actually part of the Xerox copy. 16 Q. So you met with him first, and then you spoke 17 to him on the telephone; correct? 18 A. Yes. And then if you the next 19 correspondence with Captain House is March 28th. 20 Q. You have that in front of you? 21 A. I do. 22 MR. MANLY: We'll attach that as next in 23 order. 24 MS. SOLTAN: Okay. This is the one from the 25 police department? 0083 1 MR. MANLY: This is a March 28th letter from 2 Cardinal or from Bishop Mahony, then Bishop Mahoney, 3 to Captain House of the police department in Modesto. 4 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 5 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 MS. SOLTAN: Do you have that, Cardinal? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MS. SOLTAN: Okay. 9 BY MR. MANLY: 10 Q. And did you tell him in that letter, Eminence, 11 that he was living in Oakland I'm sorry, that he was 12 living in Union City, California? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Were they looking for him? 15 A. I don't believe so. 16 Q. Why were you writing him on the status of it? 17 A. When I had met with him and spoke with him, I 18 would I told him that I would do my best to keep him 19 informed. 20 Q. Cardinal, when you were do you consider 21 yourself or did you consider yourself when you were 22 Bishop of Stockton, detail oriented? 23 MR. WOODS: I object to the form of the 24 question and instruct him not to answer. 25 /// 0084 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. Did you consider yourself to be a 3 detail oriented manager when you were the Bishop of 4 Stockton? 5 MR. WOODS: I object to the form of the 6 question. Vague and ambiguous. Calls for a conclusion 7 and speculation. Argumentative. Instruct the witness 8 not to answer. 9 MR. MANLY: Now, that's a good one. I mean 10 MR. WOODS: Are you a detailed guy? 11 MR. MANLY: Why don't you just object, it 12 might hurt my case. That would be more honest. Okay? 13 Q. Do you have any document anywhere, Eminence, 14 that establishes that you ever told the police that 15 Father Camacho was living in California? 16 MR. WOODS: Other than the documents in front 17 of him? 18 MR. MANLY: If you want to make an objection, 19 go ahead. Don't coach the witness. 20 MR. WOODS: Object to the form of the question 21 as assuming a fact not in evidence. 22 THE WITNESS: My letter of March 16th, 1984, 23 to Captain House is a brief recollection of the our 24 telephone conversation the day before. 25 /// 0085 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. Doesn't say anything about him living in 3 Union City, California, does it, Eminence? 4 A. This particular letter does not. 5 Q. Do you have any document or do you know of any 6 document that reflects that you told the police that 7 Father Camacho, an alleged child molester, who you 8 removed because you believed he was a child molester, 9 was living in Union City, California? 10 A. I don't have a document. 11 Q. So it's just your word; right? 12 MR. HENNIGAN: That's not only argumentative, 13 that's offensive, John. You can do much better than 14 that. It's argumentative. It's offensive. 15 MR. WOODS: He's already testified the police 16 chief met with Father Camacho in his office. 17 BY MR. MANLY: 18 Q. Let me ask you this way: Do you know of any 19 other evidence, beside your testimony, Eminence, that 20 you told that reflects you told the police where 21 Father Camacho was living? 22 A. Keep in mind, the March 16th letter from me to 23 Captain House says, second paragraph: 24 "I am pleased that you were able to speak 25 with him directly in your office, and that as 0086 1 a result of that conversation, he made plans 2 to return immediately to his diocese in Mexico." 3 So I didn't think he was going back to 4 Northern California. 5 Q. When did you learn, after this letter, that he 6 was living in Northern California? 7 A. I actually don't recall exactly. 8 Q. Did you tell the victims' families he 9 continued to live in the area here? 10 MR. WOODS: Object to the form of the 11 question. "The area"? You mean all of 12 Northern California, "the area," as far as you're 13 concerned? 14 MR. MANLY: You know what, if my kids were 15 molested by Father Camacho and I lived in Northern 16 California, that would the area. 17 MR. WOODS: Well, the area is Northern 18 California. 19 Did you tell the victims' parents that he was 20 in Northern California, if you knew? 21 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall. 22 BY MR. MANLY: 23 Q. Did you do anything to assure that 24 Father Camacho well, Father Camacho was not a 25 citizen of the United States; correct? 0087 1 A. At that time, he was not. 2 Q. Okay. Did you notify the immigration 3 authorities? 4 A. No, I did not. 5 Q. Okay. If he was employed by the Diocese of 6 Stockton, did you understand you had any obligation to 7 notify immigration if he'd engaged in a felony? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Is there a reason you didn't notify 10 immigration? 11 A. I notified our attorney and asked him to 12 handle any legal aspects, but I don't recall the 13 immigration service being a part of that. 14 Q. In Father Munoz's case, you did notify 15 immigration and attempt to have him deported; is that 16 correct? 17 A. No. I believe the testimony and documentation 18 will show that if he attempts to come back in the 19 United States from Mexico. 20 Q. Are you done, Your Eminence? Are you 21 finished? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. Have you seen Monsignor Cain's letter 24 of December 28th, 1984 to 25 MR. WOODS: Can we go back to the prior 0088 1 question? 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I was I was 3 unaware of proper full response to your earlier 4 question. 5 On my letter of February 15, 1984, to Father 6 Antonio Camacho. Do you have that? 7 BY MR. MANLY: 8 Q. No, but I'd be happy to to get it. 9 A. It's it's in that package. 10 Q. Do you want to read it into the record? 11 A. Sure. 12 MR. WOODS: Read the whole letter? 13 MR. MANLY: No, just what he wanted to point 14 out to me. 15 MR. WOODS: Is this a letter for the 16 record, this is a letter dated February 15, 1984, from 17 Cardinal Mahony, at the time, Bishop of Stockton, to 18 the Reverend Antonio Camacho. 19 MR. MANLY: Go ahead. 20 THE WITNESS: I would call your attention to 21 the fourth paragraph. 22 "I am revoking my authorization today with 23 the Immigration and Naturalization Service for 24 your status in the Diocese of Stockton." 25 /// 0089 1 BY MR. MANLY: 2 Q. So you did? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And you thought that was the right 5 thing to do; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Did you ever notify immigration about 8 Father O'Grady? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Why not? 11 A. Father O'Grady had not been found guilty of 12 the sexual abuse of minors in my time. 13 Q. Was Father Camacho found guilty? 14 A. In Father Comacho's case, we had victims, 15 corroborated evidence adequate to take action. 16 Q. Did Monsignor Cain get a copy of that letter? 17 MR. WOODS: Are you referring to the letter of 18 February 15, 1984, from Bishop Mahony to 19 Father Camacho? 20 MR. MANLY: Yeah, that's the letter I'm 21 referring to. 22 THE WITNESS: I honestly don't remember, but 23 very possibly he did. 24 BY MR. MANLY: 25 Q. Father O'Grady was a citizen of Ireland; isn't 0090 1 that true, Your Eminence? 2 A. I believe so. 3 Q. And he was your employee; right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. So if you knew that Father O'Grady had 6 molested kids, is it your testimony you would have and 7 should have reported him to immigration? 8 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object to the form. 9 Calls for speculation. Calls for you also, I guess, to 10 assume 11 MR. MANLY: You know what, object 12 MR. WOODS: the same factual circumstances 13 as Camacho. I'll let him answer. 14 BY MR. MANLY: 15 Q. Go ahead. 16 A. Yes. Well, that the O'Grady case is 17 different from the Munoz case and the Camacho case. 18 Q. Okay. If you knew that Father O'Grady had 19 molested kids, okay, you believed it, and you were the 20 Bishop, would you and should would you have and 21 should you have, as his Bishop and as his employer, 22 reported him to U.S. Immigration authorities to have 23 him deported? 24 A. If I had evidence and victims and 25 corroboration, most likely, yes. 0091 1 Q. Okay. So your policy was if you had an extern 2 priest or a diocesan priest 3 Let me ask it this way: Your world view, your 4 view of how to act properly as a Bishop, when you had 5 an employee who had molested kids who was not a citizen 6 but was here serving you, as the Bishop, as an 7 employee, your practice, protocol, world view of the 8 appropriate thing to do was to report that person to 9 immigration and get them deported because they were a 10 danger to kids; is that right? 11 MR. WOODS: I object to the form of the 12 question. 13 THE WITNESS: My primary concern would be to 14 make sure he was not in public, private, priestly 15 ministry, where he could be a danger to children as a 16 priest. 17 BY MR. MANLY: 18 Q. Why did you try to get Camacho deported? 19 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object that that was 20 his intent and purpose, as opposed to simply complying 21 with the law. 22 MR. MANLY: You know what, that you're just 23 coaching the witness. Why don't you just whisper in 24 his ear. It would be easier. 25 MR. WOODS: Because you are assuming facts 0092 1 that aren't true. 2 MR. MANLY: No. You can object, Don. I'm not 3 a genius. You may be right. But don't coach him. 4 It's wrong. 5 MR. WOODS: Assumes facts in not in evidence. 6 MS. SOLTAN: Could you read the question back, 7 please. 8 (The record was read as follows: 9 "Why did you try to get Camacho deported?") 10 THE WITNESS: Because he told Captain House 11 that he was going back to Mexico and did not. So I 12 withdrew his authorization. 13 BY MR. MANLY: 14 Q. You didn't try to get him deported because you 15 thought he was a molester? 16 A. That would be part of it. 17 Q. Okay. So if Father O'Grady told Mr. Gutteri 18 he molested a child, why didn't you get him deported? 19 MR. WOODS: Object. Object. Assumes not in 20 evidence. Instruct him not to answer. 21 MS. SOLTAN: Nothing's in evidence. 22 MR. WOODS: It's a hypothetical. Calls for an 23 opinion. 24 BY MR. MANLY: 25 Q. Well, you were a social worker for you 0093 1 know, you have a master's degrees 2 MR. WOODS: This is argumentative. 3 MR. HENNIGAN: He's right. 4 MR. MANLY: Did you see that Tom Cruise movie 5 where you commit a crime and they know beforehand and, 6 you know, you must have some unique talent because I 7 haven't asked a question yet and you object. 8 MR. WOODS: Because you're already starting 9 out argumentatively. 10 MR. MANLY: Well 11 MR. WOODS: Call the judge. 12 MR. MANLY: Well, I'll tell you what, at this 13 point we've been going for almost two hours. Why don't 14 we take a break. Thank you. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. The 16 time is 11:52. This is the end of tape number one of 17 the deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony. 18 (The luncheon recess was taken from 19 11:52 a.m. to 12:36 p.m.) 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record. 21 The time is 12:36. This is tape number two of the 22 videotaped deposition of Cardinal Roger Mahony in the 23 matter of John Doe versus Roman Catholic Bishop of 24 Stockton. 25 0094 1 Today is November the 23rd, 2004. 2 BY MR. MANLY: 3 Q. Your Eminence, I've handed you a document, or 4 my co counsel has, that we're going to attach as 5 Exhibit 6. It's entitled "Biographical Data on 6 Cardinal Roger Mahony." 7 Have you seen this before? 8 A. This is updated many times over the years. 9 Could I take a moment just to review it to see what 10 version we have here? 11 Q. Okay. Looks to me like it's probably accurate 12 as of '97, which for our purposes I think is fine. 13 Is that correct? 14 A. Well, let me look at the pages here. 15 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, it looks fine. 18 BY MR. MANLY: 19 Q. Okay. Can you look on the first page under 20 "Educational Background"? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And is that accurate as of the date of this 23 document? 24 A. Yes, it appears accurate. 25 Q. Okay. The first experience you had in 0095 1 preparation for the priesthood is attending Los Angeles 2 College Preparatory Seminary; correct? 3 A. Yes, that is correct. 4 Q. While there, did you ever become aware of any 5 priest abusing any young person, sexually or otherwise? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. From 1954 to 1956, you attended Our 8 Lady Queen of Angels Seminary in San Fernando, 9 California; correct? 10 A. Yes, correct. 11 Q. And it's a high school seminary? 12 A. It was high school plus two first two years 13 of college. 14 Q. Okay. And while you attended there, do you 15 did you ever become aware of a priest abusing a young 16 person, sexually or otherwise? 17 A. No. 18 Q. From 1956 to 1958, you attended St. John's 19 Seminary, College Seminary, in Camarillo; correct? 20 A. Yes, correct. 21 Q. And did you ever become aware, while you were 22 there, of a priest abusing seminarians, sexually or 23 otherwise? 24 A. No. 25 Q. While you were there, did it ever come to your 0096 1 attention that anyone in the faculty was not complying 2 with the vow of celibacy? 3 A. I have no way of knowing that. 4 Q. When is the first time you became aware that 5 priests violate their vow of celibacy on occasion? 6 A. I don't recall the first time I learned of 7 that. 8 Q. While you were at St. John's Seminary, in the 9 theologate, did you study the 1917 Code of Canon Law? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you learn about something called 12 "solicitation in the confessional"? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what is that, Your Eminence? 15 A. Solicitation in the confessional refers to a 16 priest hearing confessions in the confessional and, 17 during the course of hearing confessions, solicits the 18 penitent for some time type of sexual activity. 19 Q. Okay. And did you learn that the '17 Code had 20 penalties for that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. And did you learn the '17 Code had 23 penalties for sex with minors in the confessional? 24 A. I actually don't recall that specifically. 25 MR. MANLY: Okay. Let me we'll attach a 0097 1 copy of a document. The first document is Latin, and 2 I'll represent it's the cover page of the Code with the 3 section. And the second part is a translation. 4 Q. And I direct your attention to Page 3 of the 5 translation. 6 MR. WOODS: Can I have a copy? 7 MS. SOLTAN: It's coming. Just a second. 8 BY MR. MANLY: 9 Q. Have you ever seen the document before? 10 MR. WOODS: Hold on. 11 MR. MANLY: I'm sorry? 12 MR. WOODS: Hold on. Hold on. Okay. So can 13 you for my benefit, Page 709, starting there, 14 what what is that supposed to be? That Latin? Is 15 that Latin, I assume? 16 MR. MANLY: Yeah, the text is in Latin. 17 MR. WOODS: Okay. And what is that? 18 MR. MANLY: What is Latin? It's the language 19 of the Roman Empire. 20 MR. WOODS: What is what is 709? What do 21 you represent it to be, 709 to 712? 22 MR. MANLY: It's part of the 1917 Code of 23 Canon Law. 24 MR. WOODS: Okay. And then what's Page 5? 25 "Constitutio Sacramentum Poentitentiae of Pope Benedict 0098 1 XV"? 2 MR. HENNIGAN: XIV. 3 MR. WOODS: XIV, sorry. 4 This is the same document or a different 5 document. 6 MR. MANLY: Same document. 7 MR. WOODS: Oh, I see. This is a 8 translation you're representing this is a 9 translation of the earlier pages? 10 MR. MANLY: Right. 11 MR. WOODS: And the translation was by 12 James F. Ernest; it is that your representation? 13 MR. MANLY: That's what it says. 14 MR. WOODS: And it's your representation that 15 one is a translation of the other? 16 MR. MANLY: That's correct. 17 MR. WOODS: Okay. 18 BY MR. MANLY: 19 Q. Cardinal, have you seen the Latin document 20 before? 21 A. I I'm sorry. I'm a bit confused. You have 22 here this cover and the next page referring to the Code 23 of Canon Law, I presume, of 1917? 24 Q. That's correct. 0025 A. Then everything that follows after that is 0099 1 from 1741? 2 Q. Yeah, it's the 1741 document. That was part 3 of the code. 4 MS. SOLTAN: Cardinal, if you look at the 5 table of contents, which is the second page, document 6 V, Roman numeral V, is the I'm not going to try to 7 say this in Latin but I believe that refers to the 8 rest of the document. And what is attached to the back 9 of the document, I believe is a literal translation of 10 the document. 11 MR. WOODS: I'm I'm telling you, I don't 12 know how this is going to relate to his practices or 13 what he did, as opposed to trying to obtain an expert 14 opinion on canon law. 15 MR. MANLY: I'm not asking him his opinion on 16 Canon Law. 17 MR. WOODS: I'm curious to see how it's going 18 to happen here. 19 BY MR. MANLY: 20 Q. Have you ever seen that document before, 21 Eminence? 22 A. You do not have here the 1917 Code of Canon. 23 What you have is a collection of documents prior to 24 that code. This is just for the record. This is not 25 the 1917 Code of Canon Law. 0100 1 Q. Have you read or ever seen that document 2 before? 3 A. I've never seen the document. 4 Q. All right. Fine. From 1958 to 1962, you 5 attended the theologate, Camarillo, St. John's 6 Theologate Seminary? 7 A. Excuse me. We're back to the 8 Q. The resumé. 9 A. The resumé. 10 For the moment, we're setting this aside? 11 Q. Yeah. 12 A. Thank you. Yes, back to the resumé. The 13 question, please? 14 Q. Yeah. You attended the theologate from '58 to 15 '62; correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And while attending the theologate, did it 18 come to your attention that any priest was abusing 19 seminarians, minors or otherwise? 20 A. Abusing minors where? 21 Q. Abusing seminarians minors 22 A. Where? 23 Q. sexually or otherwise 24 A. Where? 25 Q. while you were at the seminary in the 0101 1 theologate? 2 A. At St. John's Seminary? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. From 1962 to 1964, you attended the 6 National Catholic School of Social Service; correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Did it ever come to your attention 9 while you were there that priests had abused young 10 persons in the Washington, D.C. area? 11 A. Best of my knowledge, no. 12 Q. Okay. Let's move to Page 2. 13 Oh, I'm sorry. In 1964, you got your master's 14 degree in social work; correct? 15 A. Yeah, that's correct. 16 Q. Okay. Let's go to Page 2 and look at your 17 priestly assignments. 18 From May 10th to September 10, '62, you were 19 assistant pastor at St. John's Cathedral in Fresno? 20 A. Yes, that's correct. 21 Q. Your duties, in part, caused you to function 22 as a parish priest; is that correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And while you were there at that assignment, 25 did you come to learn that any priest, either in your 0102 1 parish or anywhere in the diocese of Fresno had abused 2 a child, sexually or otherwise? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did it come to your attention that any priest 5 was routinely violating his vow of celibacy? 6 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object as totally 7 irrelevant to the subject matter of this case. I'll 8 let him answer. 9 THE WITNESS: I certainly don't recall. 10 BY MR. MANLY: 11 Q. Okay. Did you engage did it come to your 12 attention that any priest, while were you at that 13 assignment, had engaged in sexual exploitation of any 14 member of the faithful? 15 MR. WOODS: Same objection. 16 THE WITNESS: Again, I simply don't recall. 17 BY MR. MANLY: 18 Q. Is that something you would remember, you 19 think? 20 MR. WOODS: Objection. Calls for speculation. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 22 BY MR. MANLY: 23 Q. So are you saying it didn't happen or you just 24 don't remember? 25 A. I just don't recall. 0103 1 Q. Okay. June 10th, 1964, to September 10, 1964, 2 you were in residence and then administrator of 3 St. Genevieve's parish in Fresno? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. So essentially, you were acting initially as 6 an associate pastor, and then as a pastor; correct? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You didn't have the assignment as pastor, but 9 administrating the powers of a pastor? 10 A. Well, I was actually full time director of 11 Catholic Charities. 12 Q. I see. So you you said mass and assisted 13 on weekends? 14 A. The parish is one square block. It's a 15 Chinese parish. 16 Q. Got it. 17 A. And nobody came except during the two masses 18 on Sunday. 19 Q. During that time period, Eminence, did it come 20 to your attention that any priest was sexually abusing 21 or abusing in any way, a child or a minor? 22 MR. WOODS: May I just have a clarification. 23 What time period? 24 BY MR. MANLY: 25 Q. During the time from '64 to '67, when you were 0104 1 at St. Genevieve's? 2 A. Was I aware of what again? 3 Q. Any priest was sexually abusing or otherwise 4 abusing a minor, a child? 5 A. No, best of my recollection, no. 6 Q. And did it come to your attention that any 7 priest at St. Genevieve's or any other place in the 8 diocese, that you were aware of, was sexually 9 exploiting a member of the faithful? 10 MR. WOODS: Object as irrelevant to the 11 subject matter. 12 THE WITNESS: I simply don't recall any case. 13 BY MR. MANLY: 14 Q. Okay. In December 1968, you were given the 15 assignment in residence at St. John's Cathedral again; 16 correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Okay. And while you were at St. John's in 19 '68, I guess to 73, you were still with Catholic 20 Charities, what until 1970? 21 MR. WOODS: Wait. There's two question. 22 MR. MANLY: I'll break it up. 23 Q. Your Catholic Charities assignment terminated 24 in 1970; right? 25 A. Yes, that's correct. 0105 1 Q. Okay. So from '68 to '70, your primary 2 function was head of Catholic Charities; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. From 1968 to 1970, while at Catholic Charities 5 or while in connection with your duties at St. John's 6 Cathedral, did you come to learn that any priest had 7 sexually abused a child or otherwise abused a child? 8 A. Best of my recollection, no. 9 Q. From 1968 to 1970, did it come to your 10 attention that any priest had sexually exploited a 11 member of the faithful? 12 MR. WOODS: Object. Irrelevant to the subject 13 matter. 14 THE WITNESS: Again, to my recollection, no. 15 BY MR. MANLY: 16 Q. Do you remember the first time, Eminence, it 17 came to your understanding or world view that some 18 priests were not celibate? 19 A. I don't remember when that was. 20 Q. Do you remember what decade that was? 21 A. Following the Second Vatican Counsel, at some 22 point I heard of some priests that were leaving the 23 priesthood to marry. But at that time, I did not know 24 any personally or was aware of any. 25 Q. When is the first time you recall, if you 0106 1 recall well, the Second Vatican Counsel ended in, 2 what? 1968? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. So sometime after 1968, is it your 5 testimony you learned that priests some priests 6 weren't celibate? 7 A. Sometime after that. 8 Q. Do you have an estimate of when that was? 9 A. I really don't. 10 Q. Can you can you narrow it down by decade? 11 1960s? 1970s? 1980s? 12 A. I suspect it would be the late 1960s into the 13 early 1970s. 14 Q. Looking back on what you know now, do you 15 believe that there was a lot of sexual activity you 16 just didn't know about? 17 MR. WOODS: Object. Calls for speculation. 18 Calls for an opinion. I'll let him answer. 19 THE WITNESS: Did you say answer? 20 MR. WOODS: You can answer. 21 THE WITNESS: In the Diocese of Fresno, where 22 I was, I was not aware of any widespread problem in 23 this area. 24 BY MR. MANLY: 25 Q. Well, looking back on it, given what we know 0107 1 now, do you think there was a sexual activity and you 2 just weren't clued into it? 3 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation, hindsight. 4 Calls for an opinion. Irrelevant to the subject 5 matter. 6 THE WITNESS: And the question again? 7 BY MR. MANLY: 8 Q. Do you think there was a lot of sexual 9 activity going on in those years and you just weren't 10 clued into it? Is that right? 11 A. I don't believe that there was a lot of sexual 12 activity, correct. 13 Q. Okay. All right. From 1970 to 1973, did you 14 become aware at any point in time of any priest 15 abusing, sexually or otherwise, a child, a minor? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. Did you become aware of any priest 18 during that time period, 1970 to 1973, a priest 19 sexually exploiting a member of the faithful? 20 MR. WOODS: Objection. Irrelevant to the 21 subject matter. 22 THE WITNESS: I simply don't recall any. 23 BY MR. MANLY: 24 Q. Okay. From 1973 to 1980, did you become aware 25 of any priest at any time abusing a child sexually or 0108 1 otherwise? 2 A. No, best of my knowledge, I don't recall that. 3 Q. In connection with your duties as Auxiliary 4 Bishop at the Diocese of Fresno, did you ever become 5 aware of a priest accused of molesting a child or a 6 minor? 7 A. Best of my recollection, no. 8 Q. In connection with your duties as Vicar 9 General of the Diocese of Fresno, did you ever become 10 aware of an allegation of a priest molesting a child or 11 a minor or otherwise abusing a child or a minor? 12 A. I don't recall any. 13 Q. Okay. And as in your in your capacity 14 as Chancellor, you had access to the secret archives or 15 the confidential archives? 16 A. In the Diocese of Fresno, yes. 17 Q. Would those archives in your view did those 18 archives contain any allegations of children being 19 sexually abused, that you saw? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And you had occasion on more than one occasion 22 to inspect the archives? 23 A. Very rarely. 24 Q. Okay. But you did inspect them? 25 A. I didn't really inspect them. If I had to put 0109 1 something in a file, I would go to the file and place 2 it there. 3 Q. So is it your testimony that as far as you're 4 concerned, the Diocese of Fresno's archives, secret 5 archives, would contain no information on the sexual 6 abuse or alleged sexual abuse of minors from 1973 to 7 1980? 8 MR. WOODS: Is that his opinion? 9 MR. MANLY: I want to know what what he 10 what he thinks. 11 MR. WOODS: Well, you haven't established that 12 he looked at them or reviewed them or did anything 13 other than put stuff in them. 14 BY MR. MANLY: 15 Q. Do you know whether code of canon law calls 16 for you to inspect the secret archives annually as the 17 Chancellor of the diocese, Eminence? 18 MR. WOODS: Do you know if the current canon 19 law, is that what you said? 20 MR. MANLY: No, either one, '17 or '83. 21 Q. Do you know if the code calls for you to do an 22 annual inspection of the secret archives? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. Are you in charge of indexing and 25 documenting the secret archives as Chancellor? 0110 1 A. I'm really not sure. 2 Q. Okay. Were you sure when you were Chancellor, 3 or you're not sure now? 4 A. The the job of Chancellor in this country 5 varied so widely that the custodian of the records and 6 documents very often was the Vicar General. 7 Q. Okay. And in your capacity as Vicar General, 8 did you access the secret archives? 9 A. No, because I was Vicar General only because I 10 was Auxiliary Bishop. 11 Q. Okay. And what is a Vicar General, so the 12 jury will understand? 13 A. Vicar General is the person who has been 14 delegated by the Bishop to assist in the overall 15 administration of the diocese and to exercise whatever 16 action the Bishop wishes. 17 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that the Vicar 18 General is supposed to function, quote, in the heart 19 and mind of the Bishop, close quote? 20 A. Well, it depends on who the Vicar General is. 21 Q. Did you do that, Eminence? 22 A. Well, when I was Vicar General, it was by 23 reason of office. That is, the Auxiliary Bishops were 24 to be named Vicar General. As a matter of fact, there 25 was a full time Vicar General who carried on the 0111 1 duties. And I was also rector of the cathedral during 2 this same period of time. 3 Q. Did you have a regional deanery in Fresno? 4 A. I believe we did. 5 Q. And what region were you in charge of? 6 A. I actually was never the dean. 7 Q. Okay. So as Auxiliary Bishop and Vicar 8 General, your responsibility encompassed the entire 9 diocese; correct? 10 A. And duties given to me by the Bishop. 11 MR. WOODS: I've got to object to the last 12 question. You say "the" Vicar General. He was "a" 13 Vicar General is what his testimony has been. 14 BY MR. MANLY: 15 Q. Your duties as Chancellor encompassed the 16 entire diocese; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If a child had been sexually abused during 19 those years, is it fair to say that that would have 20 come to your attention as Chancellor and/or Vicar 21 General and/or Auxiliary Bishop? 22 MR. WOODS: Calls for speculation. 23 THE WITNESS: During which years? 24 BY MR. MANLY: 25 Q. When you were an officer of the Diocese of 0112 1 Fresno in any of those three offices? 2 MR. WOODS: Object to the term "officer of 3 diocese." 4 BY MR. MANLY: 5 Q. Go ahead. 6 A. I imagine I would have become aware of that 7 during that time. 8 Q. And your your testimony is that no such 9 event occurred? 10 A. No. My testimony is I cannot recall something 11 like that occurring during this time. 12 Q. Do you think if a child were raped during your 13 tenure at Fresno, that that would be something that you 14 would forget? 15 MR. WOODS: Object. Argumentative. 16 Harassing. Instruct the witness not to answer. 17 BY MR. MANLY: 18 Q. Do you think if a child molestation allegation 19 had been levied, Your Eminence, while you were there as 20 an acting as an official of the diocese, and it came 21 to your attention, that would be something you would 22 forget? 23 MR. WOODS: I'm going to object. Harassing. 24 Argumentative. Asked and answered. Instruct the 25 witness not to answer. 0113 1 MR. MANLY: He hasn't answered that question. 2 MR. WOODS: Yes, he has. 3 BY MR. MANLY: 4 Q. Do you know how many cases of child 5 molestation were reported to you prior to 1985? 6 A. Best of my recollection, three. 7 Q. Do you know of any perpetrators that were 8 operating in Fresno while you were a diocesan official? 9 A. Since you used the word "perpetrators," you're 10 referring to everybody. And I don't know. 11 Q. Do you know of any perpetrator priest and 12 let me tell you what I mean by that. Somebody who 13 sexually exploits an adult or a child that were 14 operating in Fresno while you were an official of that 15 diocese? 16 A. I can't recall any. 17 Q. Do you know any today? 18 A. Do you mean do I remember today someone who 19 during that period of time? 20 Q. No. Has it come to your attention in in 21 now, present day, that priests that were serving under 22 you were molesting children while you were there? 23 MR. WOODS: Has it been reported to him? 24 MR. MANLY: Or does he know from any source. 25 MR. WOODS: By "do you know," you mean, has it 0114 1 been reported to him, as opposed to him having 2 firsthand knowledge? 3 MR. MANLY: Whatever. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not I can't recall of 5 a case. 6 BY MR. MANLY: 7 Q. Okay. Do you think you have a good memory, 8 Eminence? 9 MR. WOODS: Object. Argumentative. Instruct 10 him not to answer. 11 MR. MANLY: How is that 12 BY MR. MANLY: 13 Q. Do you have any memory problems? 14 A. As I get older, yes, more distant things I 15 cannot remember. 16 Q. Have you have you been diagnosed with any 17 memory problems? 18 A. Not that medically. 19 Q. And you haven't been treated for any memory 20 problems; right? 21 A. Not that I know of. 22 Q. Okay. From 1966 to 1967 I'm at Page 2 23 again, Eminence, toward the bottom you served as 24 assistant professor of social work at Fresno State? 25 A. Yes. 0115 1 Q. And from '65 to '67, you were an you were 2 an instructor at Fresno State; is that right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Okay. And you served as Chancellor from 1970 5 to '77 of the Diocese of Fresno? 6 A. The years again? 7 Q. '70 to '77. I've gone on to Page 3. 8 A. Actually, that probably should say 1970 to 9 1975. 10 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 11 A. Because when I was ordained a Bishop, someone 12 else was appointed Chancellor. 13 Q. And in 1975 from 1975 to 1980, you served 14 as the Vicar General at the Diocese of Fresno? 15 MR. WOODS: A or the? 16 MR. MANLY: Either one. 17 THE WITNESS: I served as a Vicar General. 18 BY MR. MANLY: 19 Q. Okay. From '74 to '75, you served on the 20 trustees of the St. on the board of trustees of 21 St. Patrick's Seminary? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. While you were on the board, did the issue of 24 selection of candidates for the priesthood come to your 25 attention? 0116 1 A. I actually don't recall much discussion of 2 board of trustees at St. Patrick's Seminary. 3 Q. What is the first time you recall a candidate 4 for the priesthood being psychologically screened, to 5 your knowledge? 6 A. I can't recall exactly, but I would surmise 7 somewhere around the mid 1980s and beyond. 8 Q. Okay. You don't remember do you remember 9 who the first psychiatrist or psychologist or mental 10 health professional you referred someone to, to be 11 screened for the priesthood? 12 MR. WOODS: That assumes you did that. 13 THE WITNESS: I can't recall during my time in 14 1978 to 1985, myself referring someone. 15 BY MR. MANLY: 16 Q. I thought I read in your deposition that you 17 said that Dr. Morris had been sent candidates for the 18 seminary to be screened by Monsignor Cain. Is that 19 is that accurate? 20 A. No, actually, it's not. 21 Q. Okay. So Monsignor Cain never sent, to your 22 knowledge, candidates for the seminary to be screened 23 by Dr. Morris? 24 A. No. I think the record will show that after I 25 met with Dr. Morris, I informed Father Larry McGovern, 0117 1 the vocation director, that Dr. Morris would accept 2 referrals if he had any. 3 Q. And when you first started sending or knew 4 that candidates to the priesthood were going to be 5 screened by psychiatrists, what were you screening them 6 for? 7 A. Again, I don't recall us actually sending 8 anybody. He simply offered that if we felt there was a 9 question mark or question, that he would be very happy 10 to evaluate the man. 11 Q. Were you aware in 1980 to '85 that there were 12 professionals that specialized in the treatment of 13 sexual let me let me think of the let me 14 rephrase it. 15 Were you aware at any time between 1980 and 16 the Collegeville meeting, the Bishops' meeting you've 17 talked about, that there were specialists who treated 18 sexual disorders? 19 A. Do you mean prior to Collegeville? 20 Q. Yes, sir. 21 A. I can't recall any. 22 Q. So you were unaware of the Johns Hopkins 23 Center For Sexual Disorders, is that accurate, prior to 24 the Collegeville meeting? 25 A. That's accurate. 0118 1 Q. And you were unaware of the Servants of the 2 Paraclete? 3 A. I simply don't remember when I I learned 4 of of the Paraclete. 5 Q. And you were unaware of the St. Luke 6 Institute? 7 A. Until mid 1985, that's accurate. 8 Q. And you were unaware of the House of 9 Affirmation? 10 A. I believe I had heard of the House of 11 Affirmation, but for problems of depression and other 12 mental illness. 13 Q. Did it specialize in treating mental illness 14 of clerics? 15 A. My understanding is that they treated priests, 16 religious, and professionals, doctors, attorneys, and 17 other people. 18 Q. Had prior to 19 prior to the 19 Collegeville meeting, were you of the existence of The 20 Guest House in Rochester, Minnesota? 21 A. I had heard of it, yes. 22 Q. What did you understand it did, Eminence? 23 A. The guest house treated priests with problems 24 of alcoholism. 25 Q. Okay. Prior to 1985, had you ever heard of 0119 1 Southdown? 2 A. Southdown is located? 3 Q. Canada. 4 A. No. 5 Q. In either in handling the O'Grady case, the Camacho case, and the Munoz case, did you consult with 7 anyone outside of Stockton? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you contact any Bishop, colleague, friend, 10 fellow priest, mental health professional, social 11 worker and seek guidance with them on how to 12 appropriately handle that situation? 13 MR. WOODS: Could I hear it back? 14 MR. MANLY: I'll ask it again. 15 MR. WOODS: Okay. I wasn't sure if you meant 16 outside or inside. 17 MR. MANLY: Yeah. Let me try and clarify it. 18 Q. In handling the situation involving O'Grady, 19 Father O'Grady, Father Munoz, and Father Camacho, 20 Eminence, at any point did you seek outside assistance, 21 outside of the regional area of Stockton, from anybody, 22 a Bishop, a priest, a psychiatrist, anybody else? 23 A. No, I don't recall doing that. 24 Q. Did you consult a canon lawyer in any of those 25 cases? 0120 1 A. I'm not sure if there was direct consultation, 2 but there were two or three canonists who were actually 3 on the personnel board in Stockton. 4 Q. Okay. From '84 to '88, you served on the 5 board of trustees at the Catholic University of 6 America; is that correct? 7 A. Excuse me. What page are you on now? 8 Q. I'm sorry. I am on "Other Appointments" at 9 Page 5. 10 A. Oh, Page 5. 11 And the question has to do with Catholic 12 University? 13 Q. Uh huh. 14 A. Yes. And your question is was I a member of 15 the board? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. And do you know when you first obtained the 19 registration to be a social worker, or license to be a 20 social worker, in California, what year that was? 21 A. I don't remember exactly, but I suspect it 22 would have been 1964 or 1965. 23 Q. Did you ever have you ever from 1985 24 from the time you became a priest until 1985, are you 25 aware whether you ever were a mandated reporter of 0121 1 child sex abuse? 2 A. Did I know? 3 Q. Yes. Do you know if you were a mandated 4 reporter? 5 A. I know that I was not a mandated reporter. 6 Q. And how do you know that? 7 A. Because it wasn't until 1997 that clergy were. 8 Q. Prior to 1985, Eminence, did you ever report a 9 priest to the police? Did you personally ever report a 10 priest for the let me try it again. 11 Prior to 1985, did you ever report a priest, 12 in your capacity as a supervisor, to any law 13 enforcement agency for the violation of any law? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who did you report? 16 A. Father Antonio Camacho. 17 Q. You reported that personally? 18 A. I don't recall the exact sequence, but at some 19 early point after he was dismissed, his faculties 20 revoked and his assignment revoked, I spoke personally 21 with the police department in Modesto. 22 Q. Did you actually make the first report or did 23 the victims? 24 MR. WOODS: Or did who? 25 MR. MANLY: Or did the victims? [Continue to Part 2 of the deposition.] |
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