Volume 8 – Volume 4 of Part 2 Deposition of Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez October 6, 1994 • Volume 1 – January 12, 1994 • Volume 2 – January 13, 1994 • Volume 3 – January 14, 1994 • Volume 4 – January 15, 1994 • Volume 5 – October 3, 1994 • Volume 6 – October 4, 1994 • Volume 7 – October 5, 1994 • Volume 8 – Cctober 6, 1994 https://www.abqjournal.com/news/arch/4archdep3-20.htm 1367 1 SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 3 Nos. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 CV-93-08930 CV-93-11710 7 CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 JOHN/JANE DOES, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 against 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE 22 ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico Corporation, et al., 23 Defendants. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1368 1 2 DEPOSITION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 3 VOLUME VIII 4 October 6, 1994 5 9:05 a.m. 6 5625 Isleta Boulevard, S.W. 7 Albuquerque, New Mexico 8 PURSUANT TO THE NEW MEXICO RULES OF CIVIL 9 PROCEDURE this deposition was: 10 TAKEN BY: STEPHEN E. TINKLER 11 ATTORNEY FOR THE PLAINTIFFS 12 REPORTED BY: DEBORAH O'BINE, RPR, NM CCR #63 13 Cumbre Court Reporting 117 N. Guadalupe 14 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 15 16 A P P E A R A N C E S 17 For the Plaintiffs: 18 STEPHEN E. TINKLER MERIT BENNETT 19 Attorneys at Law 425 Sandoval Street 20 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 21 REESE, MATHEY & SCHOFIELD P.O. Box 1060 22 Green River, Wyoming 82935 BY: ROBERT J. REESE, ESQ. 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1369 1 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 2 SIMONS, CUDDY & FRIEDMAN P.O. Box 11648 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 BY: KAREN C. KENNEDY, ESQ. 4 5 KELEHER & McLEOD, P.A. P.O. Drawer AA 6 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 BY: ARTHUR O. BEACH, ESQ. 7 8 SHEEHAN, SHEEHAN & STELZNER, P.A. P.O. Box 271 9 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-0271 BY: ROBERT P. WARBURTON, ESQ. 10 11 For the Defendant Archbishop: 12 STOUT & WINTERBOTTOM 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 13 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 BY: RICHARD A. WINTERBOTTOM, ESQ. 14 15 For the Defendant Servants: 16 MILLER, STRATVERT, TORGERSON & SCHLENKER, P.A. P.O. Box 25687 17 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 BY: ALAN K. KONRAD, ESQ. 18 19 For the Defendant Lovelace Institutes: 20 RODEY, DICKASON, SLOAN, AKIN & ROBB, P.A. P.O. Box 1888 21 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 BY: TRAVIS R. COLLIER, ESQ. 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1370 1 For the Defendants Pecos Benedictine Monastery, Sons of the Holy Family: 2 MODRALL, SPERLING, ROEHL, HARRIS & SISK, P.A. 3 P.O. Box 2168 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-2168 4 BY: KENNETH L. HARRIGAN, ESQ. 5 For the Defendant Greek Orthodox Archdiocese: 6 GUEBERT & YEOMANS, P.C. 7 4308 Carlisle Boulevard, N.E., Suite 207 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 8 BY: RICHARD D. YEOMANS, ESQ. 9 Also Present: 10 ROY MATTHEWS, VIDEOGRAPHER 11 12 13 I N D E X PAGE 14 EXAMINATION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 15 By Mr. Tinkler 1375 16 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 1556 17 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 1557 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1371 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1372 1 EXHIBIT FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1373 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1374 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1375 1 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, 2 after having been previously sworn under oath, was 3 questioned and testified further as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. TINKLER: 6 Q. Archbishop, yesterday when we broke due to 7 the power failure, you were actually kind of in the 8 middle of a response. I was asking you about Exhibit 9 90, and I had asked you whether Exhibit 90 indicated 10 to you that, as of the date of that exhibit, February 11 28, 1985, nothing had been done to remove Clive 12 Lynn. 13 Your response was that it indicated to you 14 that he was still in the parish and then -- so I 15 would ask you if you are aware of any action you took 16 between December 1984, when you received the letter 17 from the welfare department, and this letter -- not 18 the welfare, Human Services Department -- and this 19 letter on February 28, 1985? 20 A. Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection, 21 I believe I may have mentioned this yesterday, 22 probably as a result of the first HHS letter and the 23 other complaints that were submitted to me, I did ask 24 a priest, Father Johnny Lee Chavez, who was a native 25 of Raton, to visit the community, and, in particular, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1376 1 to visit with these families who had expressed their 2 concern, and to spend adequate time there to gather 3 what information he felt was necessary to share with 4 me. 5 At the same time, again, to the best of my 6 recollection, it was during this time -- I don't have 7 any documents to show it or phone calls that I can 8 refer to, but it was during this time that I also had 9 contact with the offices of Health and Social 10 Services in Raton, and I remember speaking also to 11 this gentleman, a Mr. Juan Vigil. 12 Q. Before this letter? 13 A. Pardon? 14 Q. Before this letter? 15 A. No. I guess I would have spoken with him 16 after his letter or perhaps after a phone call from 17 him, but I certainly spoke in response to him, but I 18 do remember speaking with him, but it was during this 19 period of time that these discussions were taking 20 place. 21 Again, as I mentioned yesterday, and I 22 will not go into the details I did yesterday, I have 23 just recollection of having confronted Father Clive 24 Lynn personally regarding these allegations that were 25 being made by families and concern of the HHS. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1377 1 Q. And you indicated yesterday as well that 2 when you received the letter in December of 1984 from 3 HHS, that at that point you had decided to remove 4 Father Lynn? 5 A. I said that was probably -- on the 6 strength of that letter, I think my decision was that 7 he would be removed from the parish. 8 Q. So between that date of the first letter 9 from HHS and February 28, did you mention this to the 10 Personnel Board? 11 A. I have no recollection of mentioning that 12 directly to the Personnel Board probably until I had 13 set a date of some kind for actual transfer, because 14 that's their work is when transfers occur. Then they 15 have to become involved with a replacement of the 16 other individual. 17 I just don't recall whether I had 18 mentioned that specifically to the Personnel Board or 19 not at that time. 20 Q. At that time didn't your Personnel Board 21 actually discuss the prospective transfers and the 22 various problems that were going on with the various 23 parish priests? 24 A. The Personnel Board, their concern, 25 principal concern, as I have mentioned before, is to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1378 1 assign priests to parishes, and also to recommend 2 transfers, because they represent the other priests 3 of their deaneries. 4 They were aware of the concerns of the 5 people regarding activity of what they would call 6 erratic behavior of Father Clive Lynn and his 7 administration of the parish and the type of behavior 8 that had followed him, but I don't recall any 9 specific meeting with the Personnel Board at that 10 time. I just don't have that recollection, and I 11 don't have a document or whatever. 12 Q. If you didn't meet or if you don't recall 13 meeting with the Personnel Board, did you consult 14 with anyone between December 1984 and February 28, 15 1985, concerning Father Lynn other than Father Johnny 16 Chavez? 17 A. Father Johnny Lee Chavez was the 18 chairperson of the Personnel Board, but I discussed 19 it with him because I had asked him to do this 20 mission, and I discussed it with Health and Social 21 Services. I don't recall others at this time at all. 22 Q. Would you agree that Exhibit 90 does not 23 seem to indicate that they had spoken to you at that 24 time? 25 A. May I reread this? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1379 1 Q. Yes, sure. 2 A. I don't recall it from yesterday. 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: What was the question, 4 Mr. Tinkler? 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Does Exhibit 90 indicate 6 to you that, at least as of the date of that letter, 7 you had not yet spoken to anyone at Human Services? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. The 9 document speaks for itself. The Archbishop can't 10 interpret the language of the document that was 11 written by someone else, namely, Mr. Vigil, Secretary 12 of the Human Services Department. 13 THE WITNESS: The letter does not refer to 14 any prior correspondence. It does leave open at the 15 very last sentence that I should feel free to discuss 16 the matter further with him, feel free to contact 17 him. It does not refer to any previous or prior 18 contact. That does not totally exclude it. The 19 possibility is there. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) But you don't have an 21 independent memory of any previous contact? 22 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 23 answered. 24 THE WITNESS: Not prior to that. I just 25 have memory of having contacted him, spoken with him. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1380 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall what you 2 did after you received Exhibit 90? 3 A. Again, as I mentioned, I don't recall the 4 series of events. I would have met, I believe, with 5 Father Clive Lynn regarding this because this is the 6 secretary of Health and Human Services of the state, 7 and let him know the seriousness of the situation 8 regarding him. 9 Q. But you don't remember that? You're just 10 saying that would have been your normal course? 11 A. That would have been my normal course. I 12 do not have an active memory of that or, as I have 13 indicated repeatedly, of so many of these things. 14 Q. Who is Father Clay Dennis? 15 A. Father Clay Dennis was a gentleman who 16 would assist me with individuals in the diocese 17 regarding their ministry, to contact them for me 18 regarding placement, how they were doing, things of 19 this nature. 20 Q. Was he the director of the Personnel 21 Board? 22 A. Oh, no, he wasn't the director. The 23 Personnel Board existed independently. 24 Q. Who did he work for? I mean, was he with 25 a parish or -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1381 1 A. No. He was not quite retired but sort of 2 in residence, I guess, rather than an assignment, but 3 he worked with me in reference to personnel. 4 Q. I meant to ask you, since the deposition 5 yesterday, have you reviewed any more documents? 6 A. No, sir, I have not, hm-um. 7 Q. When you received this letter, I know you 8 don't remember the actual date and all that, but is 9 it your recollection that you were concerned? 10 A. Oh, yes. Yes, definitely. 11 (Exhibit 91 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 14 as Exhibit 91, which is a memo from Clay Dennis to 15 you dated March 4, 1985. Does that refresh your 16 memory as to what you did next? 17 A. I don't recall it, but it appears to be I 18 had asked Father Dennis to place a phone call in my 19 behalf to Father Clive Lynn, inviting him to meet 20 with me. The date is March 4. 21 Q. That memo, does it refresh your memory 22 that that effort was unsuccessful? 23 A. It says, "No luck on the telephone with 24 Clive." 25 Q. Was there any reason that you didn't CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1382 1 personally want to contact Clive Lynn to set up the 2 meeting? 3 A. Sir, I have many, many things to do, as 4 you do in your office. Do you have your secretary -- 5 I shouldn't ask a question. I apologize. I just 6 want to say, there are so many things that pass our 7 office, we can't do everything ourselves. We have to 8 have assistants. And I think we oftentimes have 9 secretaries do things that we don't have time for. 10 Q. When you received Exhibit 90, didn't you 11 think the matter had some urgency? 12 A. Yes. And that is why within four days, we 13 are trying to reach Father Lynn to -- I may very well 14 have tried to reach him personally, and after call 15 after call not succeeding, asking Father Clay to 16 assist me. 17 Q. But you don't remember that? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Can you think of any reason you would have 20 waited four days? 21 A. Like I say, I may have personally tried to 22 reach him immediately, and failing in that, asked 23 Father Dennis to do that for me. Frequently, Mr. 24 Tinkler, I'm obliged, or was obliged at that time as 25 the Archbishop to be out of town, to be at other CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1383 1 parishes, to attend meetings on a national level, and 2 I could not do things personally. I have to delegate 3 some of those responsibilities. 4 5 6 7 8 9 (Exhibit 92 was marked for 10 identification.) 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 12 as Deposition Exhibit 92, which is a letter from you 13 to Juan Vigil, dated March 7. Would you review that, 14 please. 15 A. (Witness referred to document.) 16 Q. Have you reviewed that? 17 A. Yes, sir, I have. 18 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to when 19 you contacted Juan Vigil? 20 A. Yes, it does. It's a response by me to 21 Mr. Vigil and his letter, and the response indicates 22 that I would be happy to meet with him personally, 23 and I have instructed my secretary to receive his 24 phone call and make whatever arrangements would be 25 necessary for a meeting with him. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1384 1 Q. And it also -- doesn't it also indicate 2 that you let him know that you were going to be 3 discussing this with your advisers of personnel early 4 the next week? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. So is it fair to say that this was not a 7 matter of concern so urgent that you thought it took 8 immediate action? 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to the form 10 of the question. The Archbishop has responded to the 11 degree of urgency with which he acted. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if March 7th 13 of 1985 was a Friday, and next week would be a Monday 14 to meet with priests. That's a possibility. I think 15 whatever date I had set for the meeting already was 16 going to be coming up. 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) So why on February 28 or 18 whatever day that was received, Exhibit 90 was 19 received -- 20 A. 28th. 21 Q. Probably not on the 28th. 22 A. It was received like the 2nd or 3rd of 23 March, and I responded on the 7th of March. 24 Q. Why didn't you send someone up to Raton in 25 a vehicle and get Clive Lynn out of the parish? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1385 1 A. Sir, that apparently is not my style, nor 2 is it the style of the church in a particular 3 instance of this case. I was dealing with the Health 4 and Social Services. 5 Q. What about the kids who were being abused? 6 A. I had a lot of concern for the kids. The 7 man had been confronted and warned. We do not have 8 -- well, we do not have police, you know, in the 9 church. We don't have that same authority as you do 10 in a civil society, but we do have the right to warn 11 and to confront the individual, which I did. 12 Q. Well, in 1981, you had Father Sigler's 13 faculties removed immediately, and you didn't even 14 have HHS involved. 15 MS. KENNEDY: Is there a question? 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Isn't that true? 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: What is the question, 18 that there wasn't -- Health and Human Services 19 department was not involved in 1981 with Father 20 Sigler? Is that the question? 21 MR. TINKLER: No, that isn't the question. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: What's the question? 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) The question was, isn't 24 it true that in 1981, HHS was not involved with 25 Father Sigler, and you had Father Sigler's faculties CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1386 1 removed immediately; isn't that correct? 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object. It's a 3 compound question. 4 MR. TINKLER: No, it's not. 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: There was one question, 6 whether Human Services department was involved, and, 7 secondly, whether he had Father Sigler's faculties 8 removed immediately. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Are you able to answer 10 the question? 11 A. Was it a why? Excuse me. 12 Q. No. I asked you, wasn't that true. 13 That's all I asked. Wasn't it true that in 1981 14 Father Sigler's faculties were removed immediately? 15 A. Yes, sir, they were. 16 Q. Isn't it also true that HHS wasn't even 17 involved in those allegations? 18 A. That is true, sir. 19 Q. So why, in 1985, are you letting Father 20 Lynn still remain in that parish after you've 21 received now two letters from HHS? 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Asked and 23 answered. 24 MR. BENNETT: I haven't heard an answer. 25 MR. TINKLER: I haven't heard an answer to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1387 1 that. 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: You asked him why he 3 didn't go up in a vehicle and pick up Father Lynn 4 today. Yesterday you asked him why he didn't 5 immediately remove his faculties. It's been asked 6 and answered on both occasions. 7 THE WITNESS: Sir, I was apparently 8 satisfied with my own procedure against a pastor of a 9 parish against whom allegations had been made and had 10 come to my attention, that we were moving toward that 11 action. 12 As far as a decision was concerned, I made 13 that in my own mind and heart. I had to take 14 procedures with him that were the proper procedures 15 due to the fact that he's a pastor of a parish. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) So you were concerned 17 about his rights in this matter? 18 A. Well, I think that everyone's rights have 19 to be considered. 20 Q. What about the letters from Health -- or 21 did Health and Human Services tell you that they 22 didn't need you to move quickly on this, that you 23 could do this at your leisure? 24 A. No, sir, they didn't tell me about 25 anything of that nature. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1388 1 Q. Let's look back at Exhibit 89. Maybe you 2 haven't -- why don't you reread this? If you'll look 3 at the next to last paragraph, I think that's what 4 I'd like to refer you to. 5 Do you see that where it says, "We hope 6 that some action will be taken to stop further 7 molestation of children in our community"? 8 A. Yes, sir, I see that. 9 Q. Did you think that meant it was okay to 10 have the children molested up until March as long as 11 you were thinking about it? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, not at all. 14 MS. KENNEDY: Argumentative. 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: One moment. 16 Objection. It's argumentative. You're badgering the 17 witness. He's already answered the question. Of 18 course he doesn't approve of child molestation or 19 sexual abuse or any of that sort of activity, and I'm 20 going to instruct the witness not to answer this 21 question because it's absurd. 22 MR. TINKLER: Oh, is it really? 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Yes. "Did you think it 24 was okay to abuse children?" 25 MR. TINKLER: No, I didn't say that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1389 1 MR. BENNETT: We're entitled to an answer 2 to that question. 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Ask the question in a 4 nonargumentative manner, designed to elicit pertinent 5 information in this case, and we'll let him answer. 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Was it your belief that 7 when you received Exhibit 89 that it would not be any 8 great concern if you delayed the stopping of the 9 molestation of children several months before making 10 a decision? 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object to the 12 question. It's vague in terms of the definition of 13 "concern." It's asked and answered. He already 14 testified he was concerned. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Was one day of child 16 molestation okay with you? 17 A. Sir, no molestation is good, we all know 18 that, against any child. Circumstances are present 19 in every situation in our life. A person tries to do 20 the best he can under the circumstances that are 21 there and the information that he has and the people 22 with whom he's in contact, and I believe I did what I 23 felt was reasonable at that time. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1390 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you notice in this 21 letter that it actually indicates that one of the 22 young boys interviewed by Jean Clark was being abused 23 to the present, was still being abused? 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. The letter 25 speaks for itself. The letter is in evidence in this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1391 1 deposition, and the words of the letter are the words 2 of the letter. 3 MR. BENNETT: I think he's entitled to 4 know his understanding, and I'd like to hear the 5 answer. 6 THE WITNESS: I had had this letter from 7 HHS, and it certainly was a serious letter. I sent a 8 priest up to investigate the situation personally. 9 Although I cannot prove that I met with Father Lynn 10 at this time as a result of this, I feel certain in 11 my own mind that I did and that he was confronted 12 seriously regarding this. 13 I don't have a recollection of when the 14 District Attorney was brought into this by HHS. I do 15 recall the call from the District Attorney to me. I 16 don't recall -- well, we had the first letter from 17 Juan Vigil from the state, and we have a letter of my 18 response. Other meetings with Father Clive Lynn I 19 can't recall, but I know that activity was taking 20 place towards his removal. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Okay. After you had 22 Clay Dennis try and call him, call Clive Lynn, and he 23 was unsuccessful, what efforts did you make to 24 contact Clive Lynn? 25 A. I have to assume repeated phone calls. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1392 1 (Exhibit 93 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 93, which is a 4 letter dated April 19, 1985, from a parishioner, Ms. 5 and, admittedly, it's not real good 6 print, copy, but just review that quickly because I'm 7 not going to ask you any details about it. I'm just 8 going to ask you about the letter in general. 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't you ask the 10 question, if it's just going to be general, and we 11 can focus in on it while we review this. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Does this letter dated 13 April 19, 1985, represent still further complaints by 14 parishioners that you were receiving in April of 15 1985? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object to the 17 question. The letter speaks for itself, but we'll 18 read it. 19 THE WITNESS: (Witness referred to 20 document.) 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) So does Exhibit 93 22 indicate to you that there were still parishioners 23 complaining about the behavior of Clive Lynn as of 24 the date of the letter? 25 A. Yes. This indicates CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1393 1 that she felt offended and insulted by the erratic 2 behavior of the pastor. 3 Q. Do you recall having any conversations 4 with Father Lynn regarding Exhibit 93? 5 A. Not regarding this specific exhibit, sir. 6 As I have testified, I had repeated conversations 7 with him regarding so-called erratic behavior. 8 (Exhibit 94 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 11 as Exhibit 94, a letter from dated 12 April 30, 1985. 13 A. (Witness referred to document.) 14 Q. So on April 30, 1985, you received this 15 letter, or this letter was mailed, and shortly 16 thereafter you received a letter from 17 asking you why you hadn't done anything about 18 Father Lynn, and why she hadn't heard from Johnny Lee 19 Chavez. Do you know why you hadn't done anything by 20 April 30, 1985? 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object to the 22 question. I believe is one of the plaintiffs 23 in the case, and this is apparently written by his 24 mother. Her name is not. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Why hadn't you done CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1394 1 anything by April 30th? 2 A. Sir, your question is assuming that 3 nothing was done. 4 Q. Does this indicate to you that this 5 parishioner, at least, who had already complained to 6 you on one occasion about the abuse, had not heard 7 anything? 8 A. Sir, by April 30th, Father Clive Lynn had 9 been informed that he was to be removed in the very 10 near future. 11 Q. How do you know that? 12 A. I know it because the final removal took 13 place within four weeks after this, and I had 14 notified him in advance of that decision. I just 15 remember calling him. He was quite upset. I don't 16 recall the date of it, but it was in advance of the 17 action that was taking place. We do this -- 18 Q. When you did that, when you called him and 19 told him, did you tell him that he was not to serve 20 the parish -- serve the ministry in the parish 21 anymore at all? 22 A. No, sir. He was not -- he was allowed to 23 continue as pastor until whatever date would be 24 decided. 25 Q. Why? Why were you waiting to take him CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1395 1 out? 2 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 3 answered. 4 THE WITNESS: He was out. In other words, 5 the decision for him to be out was already made. I 6 can't recall the date in my mind exactly that I had 7 given to him, I don't recall that, but he had been so 8 informed. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) But you allowed him to 10 hold -- to run his parish just as he had before for a 11 period of time after you told him; isn't that 12 correct? 13 A. I allowed him to remain in the parish 14 until the effective date. 15 Q. How did you feel at the time that that was 16 protecting children from molestation? 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It's been 18 asked and answered. 19 MR. TINKLER: No, it hasn't. I just asked 20 the question about this time frame. 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We're asking it on 22 30-day increments? 23 MR. TINKLER: That's right, each time. 24 Q. Why was he not removed immediately when 25 you called him up and told him -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1396 1 A. That was not your first question. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Your first question -- 4 MS. KENNEDY: Let's just -- 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Answer this question. 6 MR. TINKLER: Answer them both. 7 MS. KENNEDY: No. 8 MR. TINKLER: Read back the first 9 question. He wants to answer it. 10 (The question was read by the court 11 reporter as follows: "Question: How 12 did you feel at the time that that was 13 protecting children from molestation?") 14 THE WITNESS: A decision to remove the 15 gentlemen of concern had been made. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Why wasn't he removed 17 immediately within 24 hours? 18 A. I believe I've given response to that in 19 similar questions previously: That he had been 20 properly confronted, warned, and now informed of his 21 dismissal, and I felt that that was adequate for the 22 process towards his removal, and that, in fact, no 23 further actions on his part would result that might 24 be harmful to anyone in the parish or offensive to 25 anyone. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1397 1 Q. Did you trust Father Lynn at this point? 2 A. I'm not certain how I felt toward him. 3 I'm certain I was not exactly feeling happy with the 4 gentleman. 5 Q. Well, for the past several years, Father 6 Lynn had denied every allegation or virtually every 7 allegation you confronted him with; isn't that 8 correct? 9 A. Virtually, yes. 10 Q. At this point in time, had you started to 11 question his denials? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I object. Are you 13 saying to him personally? 14 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall what I had 16 felt regarding his denials in particular. I know 17 that I was not happy with the person. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You indicated that when 19 you called him and told him you were transferring him 20 from that parish, that he was upset. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. What was he upset about? 23 A. My decision. 24 Q. What did he say? 25 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Calls for CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1398 1 speculation. He's already indicated he has no active 2 memory of this. You can ask him ten more times ten 3 more questions. 4 MR. TINKLER: I haven't asked him what 5 Clive Lynn said. 6 Q. What did Clive Lynn say? 7 A. I don't recall what he said. I recall 8 that his reaction was negative as far as he was 9 disagreeing with my decision and that he emotionally 10 was upset. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, the fact that he 12 was disagreeing with your decision, didn't that 13 concern you about further molestation of children? 14 A. Not to my recollection, sir. 15 (Exhibit 95 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 18 as Exhibit 95, and it's a letter from you to Clive 19 Lynn, dated May 3, 1985. Would you please review 20 that. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Is this letter the letter where you at 23 least formally informed Father Lynn that you were 24 transferring him? 25 A. It appears to be that, sir, yes. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1399 1 Q. And why did you decide to simply transfer 2 him rather than remove his faculties? 3 A. It doesn't say anything about another -- 4 that he would be transferred, but at the same time 5 it's going to be dependent upon this testing -- test 6 that he would have to undergo and the results of 7 those tests. So no assignment had been given to him 8 for transfer, but my request, my decision that he 9 would go through testing, evaluation, and if they 10 wanted a full-time therapeutic treatment after that, 11 that he would go into that before any type of 12 transfer would become effective. 13 Q. And why didn't you immediately remove his 14 faculties? 15 A. His faculties were there to the date of 16 the -- effective to the date of this transfer, 17 transfer out of the parish, May 31, 1985. 18 Q. When you use the language, "I am writing 19 you today to inform you that I have decided to 20 transfer you from your pastorship at St. Joseph's 21 parish in Raton," why did you use the word "transfer" 22 if you did not intend to transfer him? 23 A. Perhaps I used the word "transfer out" 24 instead of -- perhaps the word "removed" may have 25 been better. I don't think I should be held CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1400 1 accountable for every innuendo on a word, especially 2 when I try to dictate these letters, so many letters 3 each day. He was being removed from the parish, he 4 was being requested to go through a battery of tests, 5 and only after that would we consider any type of 6 assignment for him. 7 Q. Why was he given approximately 30 days of 8 continued parish work before his removal? 9 A. That is the normal amount of time given to 10 a pastor who's being removed from the parish or 11 transferred out, if you wish, so that they may make 12 the proper signatures in books, meeting with their 13 parish councils, their committees, make an 14 announcement to the pulpit, pack their bags, and get 15 ready to leave. 16 Q. So you consider this a normal transfer? 17 A. It's the normal amount of time for a 18 transfer, as I mentioned, sir. 19 Q. But this was not a normal transfer, was 20 it? 21 A. It was a transfer that was decided after a 22 great deal of difficulty. 23 Q. And whose interests were being protected 24 by giving the Reverend Clive Lynn an additional 30 25 days, approximately 30 days? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1401 1 A. I think with the public knowledge of his 2 transfer, the interests of everyone were present, but 3 everyone was informed that their pastor was being 4 transferred. 5 Q. Were they being informed of the reasons? 6 A. I did not publicize reasons for his 7 transfer or his removal, nor did I publicize reasons 8 regarding anybody's transfer or removal. 9 Q. When you decided to give Father Lynn an 10 additional approximately 30 days to finish the 11 ministry at the parish -- 12 A. Wrap-up, um-hm. 13 Q. -- how did you feel that, say, the 12 year 14 old boys were going to be protected during that 15 period of time? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It's been 17 asked and answered repeatedly. 18 MR. BENNETT: I haven't heard the answer. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't think I can answer 20 for the boys, sir. The families certainly were 21 concerned, and I was concerned for them. I didn't 22 know the boys personally. I was to meet many 23 families on the occasion of this removal. And I -- I 24 just feel badly that your question is indicating that 25 I had no sense of feeling for the children or did not CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1402 1 care about them, and I'm sorry that you have that 2 feeling, sir. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No, my question was, how 4 did you feel you were protecting the children? I'm 5 asking how you thought you were protecting the 6 children by allowing Father Lynn to remain in the 7 parish for an additional 30 days? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Asked and 9 answered. 10 MR. TINKLER: That wasn't answered. 11 THE WITNESS: Sir, my decision to remove 12 him, the information given to him, the very fact that 13 he is required to do the things that I included in 14 the letter, I felt all of those things were for both 15 the good of the parish, as well as for his own good 16 and for the future. 17 (Exhibit 96 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 20 as Exhibit 96. It's a letter from you to Clive Lynn, 21 dated June 6, 1985. Would you please review that? 22 A. (Witness referred to document.) 23 Q. Do you recall sending that letter? 24 A. Not specifically, sir, but it's my letter. 25 Q. Do you recall why you gave Father Lynn an CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1403 1 additional 20 days? 2 A. I don't recall the reasons, sir. I had 3 met with Father Lynn at the parish, and I had met 4 with all of the parishioners. I had met with the 5 leadership of the parish, all of the people, so many 6 people who were quite upset with me personally that I 7 was even transferring him out, a great show of 8 support. And whatever transpired during that weekend 9 at that parish with them and with him led me to 10 believe, and I can't recall the reasons, that giving 11 him those extra two weeks would not destroy the plan 12 that was planned for him. And I so outlined the 13 things that were to follow in this letter. 14 Q. Would you turn to the second page, 15 please. At the top of that page, first paragraph, 16 you tell Father Lynn you want to thank him for his 17 ministry to the beautiful people of St. Joseph's 18 parish. And then at the end of that paragraph, you 19 say, "You have served them well and you are a 20 dedicated priest. As I told you personally, I am 21 most grateful to you for the love and ministry that 22 you have extended to these people. I wish only to 23 help your ministry become more effective." 24 Those are your words; correct? 25 A. Yes, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1404 1 Q. Is that how you dealt with all the 2 pedophile priests, with that kind of attitude? 3 A. No, sir. 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object to the form 5 of the question. It's argumentative. 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Is that how you conveyed 7 the message to Clive Lynn that he was indeed a sick 8 man and he needed to be out of the ministry, getting 9 treatment? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. How did you do that? How did you convey 12 that to him? 13 A. I have testified in your presence that I 14 had met with him on various occasions, confronting 15 him about the allegations against him, about his own 16 erratic behavior, and about what was lacking in his 17 ministry. 18 At the same time, I had come out of an 19 experience where a great deal of respect and 20 appreciation was shown him, a number of families 21 indicating that. And in a letter, an exit letter for 22 him, I simply said, "Thank you for the things that 23 you've done," many good things in spite of the many 24 complaints and allegations that were brought against 25 him. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1405 1 (Exhibit 97 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what is 4 marked as Exhibit 97, which is a letter dated May 15, 5 1985, from the and . That's 6 directed to you. Would you please review that. 7 A. (Witness referred to document.) 8 Q. Do you recall receiving Exhibit 97? 9 A. Not in particular, sir. 10 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of the 11 letter? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. You had received this letter by the -- I 14 believe it's the 15 16 some two to three weeks before 17 you decided to give Father Lynn an additional 20 18 days. Did you not consider this letter when you made 19 that decision? 20 A. Sir, I cannot recall considering one issue 21 apart from another issue. I had to take all of the 22 issues into consideration for any decision I made. 23 Q. The second to last paragraph says, "It is 24 our sincere impression that this case is regarded by 25 you, and perhaps others, as 'sensitive' and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1406 1 'delicate' and should be discussed in a 2 'confidential nature' to protect, not our children, 3 but the clergy and the church." Is that how you were 4 treating the matter? 5 A. I don't think that we were making public 6 announcements, sir, either from the pulpit or other 7 methods, nor was HHS, as she indicates, nor was the 8 District Attorney's office, as she indicates in the 9 letter. I think any allegations of this nature are 10 delicate to begin with for the sake both of families, 11 as well as the person about whom the allegations may 12 be made. 13 Q. These families were asking you to act 14 immediately, weren't they? 15 A. They were, sir. 16 Q. And they had been asking you since the 17 fall of 1984, the same group of families? 18 A. Since November. They were bringing the 19 concerns, their serious concerns to my attention. 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1407 1 2 3 4 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you visit with the 6 and the over that weekend? 7 A. Sir, I don't recall the individuals, but I 8 recall two or three families wanted to see me apart, 9 and I met with them. To the best of my recollection, 10 they were numbers of people who were concerned about 11 Father Lynn. 12 (Exhibit 98 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 15 as Deposition Exhibit No. 98, which is a letter dated 16 June 13, 1985, from these same parishioners, the 17 to you. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Do you recall receiving that letter? 20 A. Not specifically, sir. 21 Q. Do you recall responding to that letter? 22 A. No, I can't recall responding to it 23 specifically either. 24 Q. They were asking you to do that, weren't 25 they, asking you to let them know when he was really CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1408 1 going to go? 2 A. I had given them the date of, apparently, 3 Corpus Christi Sunday, which was the 20th of June. 4 And that date had been set; that date would be held 5 to. I received this -- 6 Q. But they asked you for further 7 clarification? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. The 9 Archbishop had not finished his answer. 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Go ahead and finish your 11 answer. 12 A. I was just going to say that I apparently 13 had received the letter approximately four days or so 14 before the 20th. So it's just -- I don't know 15 whether I answered it specifically or not. 16 Q. He wasn't gone on the 20th, was he? 17 A. I don't recall. He should have been gone 18 on the 20th, sir. That was the date I had given 19 him. The new pastor would have to take over on that 20 date. 21 (Exhibit 99 was marked for 22 identification.) 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 24 as Deposition Exhibit 99, which is a letter from you 25 to Clive Lynn, dated June 28, 1985. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1409 1 Do you recall sending Exhibit 99? 2 A. No, I don't recall sending this, sir. 3 Q. It indicates he's still serving a ministry 4 in Raton, New Mexico, as of June 28, doesn't it? 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. That's not 6 the language of the letter, and the letter speaks for 7 itself. 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Let's go to the last 9 paragraph and see if that is the language. Third 10 sentence, doesn't it state, "Please assure them at 11 your Mass on Sunday of your prayers for their 12 intentions and ask in turn for their prayers for 13 you." 14 Doesn't that indicate to you that he was 15 still serving the ministry in Raton as of June 28, 16 and that he would continue to serve it at least 17 through the following Sunday? 18 A. It gives that indication, yes, sir. 19 Q. Why? 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why does it give that 21 indication? 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Why did you let him do 23 that? 24 A. I do not have a recollection for that, 25 sir. I know that his replacement was to have been CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1410 1 there by July 1st, Father Tony Bolman. I do not 2 recall if there were circumstances preventing his 3 coming to Raton at that particular time, leaving his 4 own parish. Those circumstances I just do not recall 5 at this time. 6 Q. Does this letter refresh your memory that 7 in fact Father Lynn was staying over without your 8 permission? 9 A. Yes, sir, his term was the 20th of June. 10 Q. Well, when you learned that he was not 11 honoring your directive, why didn't you go up there 12 or send someone up there to Raton to make him honor 13 the directive, to ask him to leave? 14 A. Sir, I just do not recall whether we had 15 been in contact previously prior to this letter, 16 either myself or perhaps Father Tony Bolman, because 17 of other circumstances. Those details just are not 18 present to me at this time. 19 Q. Do you know where Father Lynn went? Did 20 he leave after the 28th of June? 21 A. Sir, he left as soon as the pastor arrived 22 for that parish. You're asking me where he went? 23 Q. Yes. Wasn't he supposed to come meet with 24 you? 25 A. He may very well have come and met with CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1411 1 me. I just don't recall it. 2 Q. Didn't you indicate he was supposed to go 3 take some personality tests? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Did he do that? 6 A. To the best of my recollection, he did go 7 up to Jemez Springs for that purpose, to the best of 8 my recollection. 9 Q. You could be wrong about that; is that 10 correct? 11 A. I'm saying to the best of my recollection. 12 (Exhibit 100 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 MR. TINKLER: Exhibit 100 is a letter from 15 you dated July 9, 1985, to the Reverend Clive Lynn, 16 care of St. Joseph's Parish, Raton, New Mexico. 17 While you're reviewing that, I think he 18 needs to change the tape. 19 (A discussion was held off the record.) 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, have you had 21 an opportunity to review Exhibit 100? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Do you recall sending that letter to 24 Father? 25 A. Not in particular. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1412 1 Q. Do you recall the fact that Father Lynn 2 was still in Raton as of July 9, 1985? 3 A. Not in Raton, sir. I think that I had 4 given him directives that his term had been over. I 5 note that I directed this care of St. Joseph's Parish 6 as a mailing address for him. To the best of my 7 recollection, he had gone to Colorado Springs and was 8 making contacts there, but he was no longer pastor at 9 St. Joseph's in Raton. 10 Apparently, he still had some items, 11 personal items, that needed to be removed, but he was 12 no longer the pastor in charge or the priest in 13 charge. 14 Q. But he was still -- it does appear that at 15 least you were asking him to remove his belongings by 16 the next day, July 10; is that correct? 17 A. The remaining items that he did have, 18 right, uh-huh. 19 Q. Are you aware of whether or not he had 20 actually left the area? 21 A. My recollection is that he had gone to 22 Colorado Springs. 23 Q. How did you expect this letter to get to 24 him at St. Joseph's parish if you thought he had gone 25 to Colorado Springs? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1413 1 A. Apparently, that was the only mailing 2 address that he had, and he needed to return to get 3 the rest of his personal items. 4 Q. In your previous correspondence to Father 5 Lynn regarding his removal from this parish, you had 6 indicated you were requiring him to do some testing 7 before his vacation; correct? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. And it appears from this letter that he is 10 now leaving for vacation to Ireland on July 15, and 11 you're asking him to do some testing when he returns; 12 is that correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Why did you decide to delay the testing? 15 A. I do not have an active recollection of 16 it, but it may very well have come about from 17 conversations with the Servants of the Paraclete or 18 with another House of Affirmation that would be able 19 to accept him, and to allow the possibility of him 20 remaining at that House of Affirmation or center of 21 testing for an extended period of time, rather than 22 just the evaluation. That may have been the reason 23 why I would allow him to go on vacation first. 24 Q. Did you remove his faculties before he 25 went on vacation? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1414 1 A. He had no faculties to serve as an active 2 priest in the Archdiocese. He could celebrate Mass, 3 but he would need specific permission even to witness 4 a wedding or to baptize, things of that nature. 5 Q. How did you accomplish that? 6 A. There is no -- simply by removing him from 7 his pastorship. He had no assignment in the 8 Archdiocese. 9 Q. By not having an assignment is how you 10 removed his faculties? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. Because your letter didn't indicate -- you 13 didn't notify him that his faculties were removed, 14 did you? 15 A. No, sir, but the man would not be able to 16 come into a parish and simply begin to assume 17 pastoral work. I had not suspended him. Perhaps the 18 word that you're seeking. 19 Q. Well, for instance, he was going to 20 Ireland for three weeks or a month, more than a 21 month. He could have used his faculties over there 22 on a part-time basis, couldn't he? 23 A. They would have allowed him to celebrate 24 the Eucharist if he had been given what we call an 25 identification card, a celebrate, but they would not CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1415 1 invite him to serve as a parish priest without 2 contacting us. 3 Q. And at that point in time, were you 4 concerned about the danger the children were exposed 5 to when they were around Father Lynn on each -- every 6 day? 7 A. Sir, I had removed him from the parish, 8 which was our principal concern. I'm not certain 9 what other responsibilities you feel I would have 10 beyond that. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Isn't it true that as of 24 the date you wrote the letter on July 9, 1985, you 25 actually did not know where he was at? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1416 1 A. I presumed sir -- and perhaps more than 2 presumed. I may have had contact with him from 3 Colorado Springs. I don't recall that, admittedly, 4 and I certainly don't have any document to show you, 5 but the fact that this had been the conversation 6 prior to his leaving and my references to Colorado 7 Springs in this letter leads me to believe that. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall what next 17 transpired with Father Lynn, between yourself and 18 Father Lynn? 19 A. I do not recall. If you're referring to 20 any personal meeting and such things, I do not recall 21 anything of that nature right offhand. 22 Q. Do you recall, did he go report for the 23 testing in Massachusetts? 24 A. Yes, sir, he did. 25 Q. Do you recall getting the results of the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1417 1 tests? 2 A. No, I do not recall getting any results 3 from the tests. I recall correspondence with them or 4 at least phone calls with them to set up the 5 appointment and time and so forth. 6 Q. Well, when you sent him there, were you 7 wanting to get results from the tests, or was he just 8 being sent there to do the tests? 9 A. I wanted to get results from the tests, 10 yes, sir. 11 Q. Did you receive results from the tests? 12 A. I do not recall that. I'm not certain 13 they ever sent results about the tests. 14 Q. Do you recall receiving correspondence 15 from Father Lynn from Colorado Springs, expressing 16 his disagreement with the results of the tests? 17 A. I don't recall him expressing disagreement 18 with the tests. That's my memory. But I recall 19 rather him voicing objection to the setting and to 20 some members of the staff who were present, and I 21 guess, in general, attitude at the House of 22 Affirmation. 23 Q. And do you recall being supportive of his 24 objections to that experience at the House of 25 Affirmation? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1418 1 A. I don't recall right offhand what all the 2 objections were or what support I may have lent to 3 them. I know that I was very insistent that he 4 complete an in-residence program for himself. 5 Q. And did you ask him to meet with you to 6 discuss the results of the evaluation? 7 A. I don't recall that right offhand, sir, 8 no. 9 (Exhibit 101 was marked for 10 identification.) 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Exhibit 101 is a letter 12 from you to Father Lynn dated November 8, 1985. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Do you recall sending that letter? 15 A. Not in particular, no, but it's my letter. 16 Q. And you did ask him to meet with you to 17 discuss the results? 18 A. Yes, sir, this letter indicates that I was 19 asking him to come down to meet with me for that 20 purpose. 21 Q. And, in fact, you made it mandatory? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Did he? 24 A. I would have to assume he did. 25 Q. Did he still have his faculties at that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1419 1 point? 2 A. Outside of faculty to celebrate the 3 Eucharist, he would have to request specific 4 permissions to do anything public in any other 5 diocese. 6 Q. But did he still have full faculties? Had 7 you removed his faculties? 8 A. I had not suspended him, which is called 9 removal of faculties, but he certainly had no 10 permission, no assignment in the archdiocese, nor 11 could he serve outside the diocese. 12 Q. Why wasn't he suspended? 13 A. I have no particular answer other than the 14 fact that he was removed from assignment, he was not 15 welcome to serve in any parish without my specific 16 permission, and could not serve as a priest outside 17 of the diocese, similarly. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we pause for 19 a break, Mr. Tinkler? It's 20 after. 20 MR. TINKLER: Okay. 21 (A recess was taken.) 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, as of 23 November 1985, when you had written a letter to 24 Father Lynn so that he would meet with you, do you 25 remember that you met in Raton? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1420 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Do you remember him requesting to meet you 3 halfway, to meet you in Raton? 4 A. No, sir, not Raton at all. No, I think I 5 would have asked him to see me in my office. That 6 would have been the proper thing to do. 7 Q. And although you don't have a specific 8 memory, you do think you probably did meet with him; 9 is that correct? 10 A. Yes, I would assume that I had met with 11 him. 12 (Exhibit 102 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 Q. I'm going to hand you what's been marked 15 as Exhibit 102, which are the minutes of the 16 Personnel Board meeting, December 10, 1985, 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1421 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you had an 23 opportunity to try and review those minutes? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. This category Old Business, I assume CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1422 1 that's where you discuss old business, right, and 2 then you go through different priests; is that right? 3 A. Right, um-hm. 4 Q. Looking at item No. 7, I know the names 5 are blacked out, but does this appear to you to be 6 referring to Father Lynn? It says so-and-so, you 7 know, blank, "met with" blank; "he still enjoys the 8 faculties of the Archdiocese; he was mandated to 9 enroll in a therapeutic environment preferably at 10 Jemez; his deadline to respond is January 15." 11 Does that appear to be Father Lynn? Isn't 12 that true about him? 13 A. That's a good possibility. The names are 14 blanked out, as you've indicated. I think we could 15 assume that. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1423 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1424 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1425 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1426 1 2 3 Q. With respect to paragraph No. 7, are you 4 aware of any other priest within your diocese other 5 than Clive Lynn in December of 1985 who had their 6 faculties and who had been ordered to a therapeutic 7 environment, preferably at Jemez, by January 15, 8 1986? 9 A. I am so focused at this time on Father 10 Clive Lynn and the issues before us, I would have to 11 go over a list of priests to try to figure out if 12 anyone was in that same circumstance or a similar 13 circumstance as of this December date. 14 Q. Were there that many? 15 A. I did not indicate that there were many, 16 sir. I said I would have to go over a list of all 17 the priests in my mind, because we've been focusing 18 on one man for the last two hours, and it's not easy 19 just to jump back nine years and pick someone right 20 up and say this is the time, because you're asking me 21 to say this for certain under oath, and I just cannot 22 recall. I can't recall another person. 23 Q. Let me just ask you this if you can't 24 recall. You can't recall another person? 25 A. I can't recall. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1427 1 Q. Would you agree that that description in 2 paragraph 7 does fit the current status of Father 3 Lynn as of December 10, 1985? 4 A. It could possibly fit him, yes. 5 (Exhibit 103 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you 8 what's marked as 103, a letter dated December 1, 9 1985, from to yourself, with an 10 attachment. 11 A. (Witness referred to document.) 12 Q. Archbishop, do you recall receiving 13 Exhibit 103? 14 A. No, sir, not in particular. 15 Q. Do you remember the subject matter? 16 A. I don't recall the letter. The subject 17 matter as contained in the letter is similar to 18 previous letters. 19 Q. Except now this letter is on December 1, 20 1985, and she, and is notifying you that 21 Father Lynn is still communicating with persons in 22 Raton and is causing them additional strain and 23 harming their well-being. This is supposedly after 24 he's left; correct? 25 A. Yes, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1428 1 Q. Did that concern you? 2 A. Yes, it would concern me. 3 Q. Did you ever -- prior to this letter, had 4 you directed Clive Lynn not to return to Raton and 5 his parish? 6 A. I don't recall making a specific directive 7 to that issue. 8 Q. Why not? 9 A. I do not recall it, sir. I did not say 10 that I did not do it. His -- whatever visits he may 11 have had in Raton were visits made at his own, 12 obviously at his own will, but I would think that 13 this letter -- if not done prior to this letter, I 14 would have tried to communicate with him again to 15 tell him that he is to avoid Raton. Period. 16 Q. Do you recall doing that? 17 A. I don't have that recollection right 18 offhand or when, but I do have a recollection of a 19 caution about that. 20 Q. Do you remember when you removed him from 21 the Mora parish -- 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. -- several years earlier, you did write 24 him a letter directing him not to return to the 25 parish? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1429 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Do you recall writing such a letter with 3 respect to his removal from the Raton parish? 4 A. I don't recall writing a letter to this 5 effect. I may very well have or have spoken with him 6 by phone or personally. 7 Q. If you had written a letter directing him 8 to do that, it would be in his personnel file; is 9 that correct? 10 A. I would hope so. 11 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object, because 12 I think that in the exhibits we've seen here today, 13 there was a reference to -- in Exhibit 97, the letter 14 from the various individuals of May 13th, it 15 references a May 7, 1985, letter, from the Archbishop 16 that I'm not sure is in the file. It certainly 17 hasn't been introduced. 18 So if the absence of the letter -- you are 19 putting the proposition that an absence of a letter 20 means that one wasn't written, I would say that's 21 contradicted by Exhibit 97 to this deposition. 22 MR. TINKLER: It's your file. 23 (Exhibit 104 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1430 1 as Exhibit 104, which is a letter from you to Clive 2 Lynn, dated December 4, 1985. I ask you to review 3 that. 4 A. (Witness referred to document.) 5 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 104? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Do you remember writing that letter? 8 A. Not in particular, sir. It's a long 9 letter, incidentally. 10 Q. Does it appear to be a letter confirming 11 the meeting that you had with Father Lynn? 12 A. It appears to be a letter summarizing the 13 meeting of November 27, 1985. 14 Q. Does it refresh your memory that in fact 15 Father Lynn was complaining about the results of his 16 testing? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Would you turn to the second page, 19 please. In that first paragraph that's numbered 20 paragraph 2 -- 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. -- you were summarizing your discussion, 23 and isn't it correct that your summary of that 24 discussion indicates that Father Lynn felt abandoned 25 by the Archdiocese and complained about the fact that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1431 1 some priests felt that he was under some sort of 2 suspension? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And that the Bishop in Colorado Springs 5 seemed to be under that impression as well; is that 6 correct? 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Well, the letter states 8 that that's what Mr. Lynn says to him, the 9 Archbishop, not that any of those things in fact are 10 true. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Right. No, I'm just 12 saying, this is what Father Lynn said to you? 13 A. Right, I was summarizing, um-hm. 14 Q. And you assured him in that meeting that 15 he was not under suspension? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. And that you would notify any priests to 18 clarify that situation? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And that you would also notify the Bishop 21 in Colorado Springs? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Why were you doing that? 24 A. I also put down here, you didn't mention 25 that, "You will have permission to celebrate Mass CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1432 1 there for them although as I clarified for you, I 2 will not allow them to grant you a formal assignment 3 to any parish such as associate pastor." 4 Q. I understand that. But you did not remove 5 his faculties. Specifically, you went and told, or 6 you said you were going to go and tell priests that 7 he had his faculties, and you were going to tell the 8 Bishop that he had his faculties. Why were you doing 9 that? 10 A. I was saying that he was not suspended. 11 I'm not certain whether you totally understand the 12 theology of the church, Mr. Tinkler. He -- 13 Q. Well, I don't think my understanding -- 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The witness has not 15 finished. 16 MR. TINKLER: It's not really responsive 17 to the question. 18 THE WITNESS: If I may testify to this, 19 please -- 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: He will warm to the 21 subject if you'll give him the opportunity. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Go ahead. 23 A. Suspension would indicate that the man has 24 no right to celebrate Mass anywhere, and oftentimes 25 not even in private, if that's included, but CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1433 1 certainly not publicly. When a man does not have 2 faculties to minister to a parish, he may celebrate 3 the Eucharist, but he may not preach, he may not 4 baptize or administer any of the other sacraments. 5 In a sense, the effect is almost the same, 6 if a man does not have an assignment and one who is 7 suspended, but one who is suspended is done so 8 because of a punishment. 9 Q. So as I understand the language of your 10 letter, anyway, it says that Father Lynn complained 11 that other priests had the impression he had been 12 suspended from faculties, and then later on in the 13 letter you indicate that you will "spread the word to 14 other priests so as to correct any faulty thinking." 15 Weren't you talking about the faulty thinking about 16 his being suspended from faculties? 17 A. If the priests were under the impression 18 that he had been placed under suspension and 19 ecclesiastical censure, then that was wrong. He had 20 not been. He had been removed from his parish. He 21 had not been given another parish. And he had been 22 told he would not be given any other assignment in 23 the Archdiocese or allowed to serve anywhere unless 24 he went to a full therapeutic program in residence. 25 And upon the completion of that, we would discuss his CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1434 1 future. 2 Q. Why, at this point in time, had you not 3 decided to suspend him? 4 A. He had no faculties. The effect of that 5 was in evidence. He had not bolted from the 6 Archdiocese. He would in time be suspended, very 7 shortly after this, de facto, but up to this point, 8 if he would cooperate with what I was asking him to 9 do, I had not taken that specific action. 10 Q. And I'm asking you why? Why didn't you 11 take that specific action? 12 A. Because it appeared to me, and I use that 13 word very emphatically, "appeared" to me that he was 14 expressing cooperative goodwill, even though, 15 admittedly, he had been a difficult person to deal 16 with, but it appeared that he was going to be willing 17 to cooperate. Failure to cooperate then would result 18 in a suspension, a censure. 19 Q. In the same meeting, he told you that the 20 testing was not accurate? 21 A. That's his opinion. 22 Q. The psychological testing? 23 A. That's his opinion. 24 Q. And that he denied all the allegations of 25 the sexual misconduct. Is that how you determined CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1435 1 that he was going to cooperate at this point? 2 A. No, sir. I am saying here that in this 3 meeting, this was his statement, but I think you need 4 to go on to find out the reaction of myself, if I 5 read your letter correctly or this letter correctly. 6 Q. Now, in this letter, nowhere did you 7 instruct him not to go to Raton, did you? 8 A. No, sir, not in this letter. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1436 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you ever write 20 another letter to Father Lynn directing him not to go 21 to Raton? 22 A. I don't recall any specific letter, sir. 23 I do have a recollection in my mind of having 24 addressed that issue. Whether it was personally at a 25 meeting, by phone, or by a letter, I don't recall. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1437 1 Q. Would you agree that at least in the 2 meeting that you had on November 27, 1985, you did 3 not discuss the subject since you did not summarize 4 it in this letter dated December 4? 5 A. It certainly appears that way, yes, sir. 6 Q. By the way, you also were still paying 7 Father Lynn his full salary and benefits as of 8 December 1985; is that correct? 9 A. I could not testify to that for sure, 10 sir. He was asking that benefits -- some reference 11 to benefits, but I didn't refer to it. 12 (Witness referred to document.) 13 Yes, the concluding part of the letter 14 indicated that he was receiving a check for the 15 months of August through November. 16 Q. On page 2 you also indicate that you agree 17 to pay him through June of 1986; correct? 18 A. That was the intention, sir. It did not 19 turn out that way. 20 Q. But at that point, that was your 21 intention? 22 A. Yes. 23 (Exhibit 105 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1438 1 as Exhibit 105, which is your letter dated January 2 15, 1986, to . 3 A. (Witness referred to document.) 4 Q. Have you finished the letter? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Archbishop, this is the letter that you 7 wrote back to in response to her 8 December 1, 1985, letter; is that correct? 9 A. Yes, sir, I mentioned that in the letter 10 itself. 11 Q. And in that letter that she had written 12 you, the one that's December 1, 1985 -- 13 A. Right. 14 Q. -- she had also told you about the 15 difficulty that some of the victims were having and 16 needing therapy; correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And in this Exhibit 105, I think it's in 19 the fourth -- fifth paragraph, you have offered the 20 services of three priests to counsel, to give therapy 21 to the victims; is that correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. As I indicated, that I thought 23 in light of the particular accusations, it might be 24 especially appropriate for the children to be 25 counseled by a member of the clergy. That was just a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1439 1 suggestion. 2 Q. Why did you think that? 3 A. I thought that they would be able to hear 4 the child, try to counsel the child, try to help the 5 family, actually, because she had indicated their 6 faith being shaken, that one of the children was no 7 longer attending Mass. I thought that might be of 8 assistance to them, just a suggestion. And, 9 incidentally, one of them was a person from Raton 10 known to them. 11 Q. You don't say who that is in the letter, 12 though; correct? 13 A. No, I didn't put down the names in the 14 letters of the men at all. 15 Q. Is it fair to say that you, at least in 16 this letter, don't indicate to that you 17 have informed Father Lynn that he should not return 18 to Raton? 19 A. No, sir, I didn't put that in that letter. 20 Q. That was one of her concerns in her 21 December 1st letter? 22 A. Yes, sir, it obviously was. 23 Q. Incidentally, what were the names -- do 24 you recall the names of the three priests that you 25 were suggesting counsel the children? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1440 1 A. To the best of my recollection, the men 2 that I had in mind were Father Clarence Galli, who 3 was a native of Raton, who was in fact doing such 4 work with the University of New Mexico and was 5 enrolled in their Ph.D. program; Father Ronald 6 Bruckner, also who has his degree in counseling; and 7 one other priest. Golly, his name just escapes my 8 mind right offhand. Oh, Father Brown, Brown; let's 9 see, his first name, I can't recall the first name 10 right offhand. 11 Q. Do you remember your next correspondence 12 from Clive Lynn or contact with Clive Lynn? 13 A. No, sir, I don't. 14 (Exhibit 106 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 17 as Exhibit 106, which is your letter dated February 18 -- well, it just says 1986. I don't know the date 19 -- from you to Father Lynn? 20 A. (Witness referred to document.) 21 Q. Have you reviewed that exhibit? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Do you recall this letter? 24 A. Not in particular. 25 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1441 1 setting up a meeting with him? 2 A. No, I don't. I think we had several 3 meetings that were being set up, and I just can't 4 recall this one. 5 Q. In the third paragraph, you thank him for 6 his willingness "to assist in the Fort Sumner Parish 7 during Holy Week." Do you recall him contacting you 8 and requesting or offering his services as a pastor 9 in Fort Sumner during Holy Week? 10 A. No, sir, I don't recall him contacting us, 11 but apparently he had contacted the office, someone 12 in the office and made that offer. As you see in the 13 letter, it was rejected. 14 Q. Right. You told him, "However, previous 15 arrangements have been made for service to this 16 parish," and "I would ask that you celebrate 17 privately during that Holy Season"? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. Why didn't you tell him that you intended 20 -- or why hadn't you even suspended him at this 21 point in time? 22 A. As I've mentioned before, I did not 23 suspend him. He had no assignment in the 24 Archdiocese, no facility to be able to continue his 25 priesthood as he wanted. That action was not taken. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1442 1 Q. At that point in time, in February of 19 2 -- I assume this is February of 1986 because it 3 refers to a February 5th letter, but, at any rate, 4 whenever this letter was sent, had you thought about 5 the fact that here was Father Lynn, asking to go back 6 to the Fort Sumner parish where he once served -- 7 A. Um-hm. 8 Q. -- and where Jason Sigler once served, who 9 was a known pedophile, and now you knew Clive Lynn 10 was a known pedophile, did you think about that? 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to the term 12 "pedophile" as previously noted. 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't think 14 about that. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Had you thought about it 16 at any point in time up until I just asked you the 17 question? 18 A. I did not reflect upon his request to go 19 back to Fort Sumner where he had once served. I did 20 not reflect upon that, to the best of my 21 recollection. 22 Q. In, let's say, 1992, after many of the 23 lawsuits had been filed against Father Sigler, and 24 you'd had your experience with Father Lynn, did it 25 cross your mind that perhaps you should send some CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1443 1 representatives of the Archdiocese to Fort Sumner 2 where both these gentlemen had served to discover if 3 perhaps there were victims of their acts in that 4 parish? 5 A. It did not occur to me to do that at that 6 time, sir, not at the time in which I was still the 7 Archbishop. 8 Q. So at least as of the time you left your 9 job here as the Archbishop, you had not thought of 10 that? 11 A. We had not taken that action, no. 12 Q. Do you know if the Archdiocese has taken 13 any action like that since you left? 14 A. No. What action the Archdiocese took 15 after my departure, I have no idea. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1444 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1445 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Would you agree that as CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1446 1 an Archbishop, as long as the debate goes on, that it 2 would be your responsibility not to place someone who 3 had molested a child to serve in a ministry? 4 A. As an active Archbishop, I would be very 5 concerned, yes. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1447 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 23 as Exhibit 107 and ask you to review that document. 24 It looks like some type of memo, and it has the dates 25 of February 14 and February 15. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1448 1 A. (Witness referred to document.) 2 Q. Have you reviewed that document? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Do you recognize the document? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Can you identify it? 7 A. It seems to be a memo but not from myself. 8 Q. It's not your own? 9 A. No. 10 Q. That's not your handwriting; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Oh, no. 13 Q. Do you recall ever seeing this document? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Does it refresh your memory as to what was 16 going on with respect to Father Lynn in February of 17 1986? 18 A. Not much. 19 (Exhibit 108 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what is 22 marked Exhibit 108, which is a letter from you to 23 Father Lynn, dated April 18, 1986. Would you please 24 review that. 25 A. (Witness referred to document.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1449 1 Q. Archbishop, is this, Exhibit 108, is this 2 the letter where you did formally remove his 3 faculties? 4 A. Yes, sir, this letter was dated April 18, 5 and it's the formal notification to him that I have 6 taken that action. 7 Q. And is that the last paragraph on the 8 first page -- 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. -- where you detail in writing the 11 restrictions on Father Lynn? 12 A. Totally. The revocation of his faculties 13 regarding the various things as mentioned therein, 14 and his removal from all possible offices in the 15 Archdiocese, and that there be no other offices 16 offered to him for public ministry in the 17 Archdiocese. 18 Q. Is it fair to say that up until April 18, 19 1986, you had never taken the action which is set 20 forth in this letter? 21 A. No, sir, this was the formal action of 22 removal of faculties and placing him in the 23 conditional state. 24 Q. Why did it take 18 months since you 25 received allegations in Raton of actual abuse going CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1450 1 on to get to this stage? 2 A. As I have testified previously, he 3 appeared during the previous time to be of goodwill, 4 wanting to cooperate, it appeared, but as time went 5 on, it became clearer and clearer that he was 6 resisting all efforts at this area to help him. And 7 because of that, he left me no choice but to take 8 this formal action. 9 In addition to that, he had -- he was 10 indicating his returning to his parents, and this 11 action was necessary to clarify his situation. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1451 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. Is it fair to say, without going through 8 the rest of this file, that you continued to 9 correspond with Father Lynn, because he continued to 10 correspond with you after this April date, and he 11 continued to try and receive faculties from you? 12 A. I don't recall the correspondence. I'm 13 sure, given his temperament, he would want things to 14 be different. I don't even recall the date of his 15 leaving right offhand. If you have that information, 16 certainly it would help, but I don't recall any 17 specific efforts or letters. I just don't recall 18 that. 19 Q. Is it fair to say that you never restored 20 his faculties? 21 A. They were never restored from the date 22 that they were removed from him to this present date. 23 Q. And, in fact, he threatened to sue the 24 Archdiocese over this issue; is that correct? 25 A. There were threats on his part. I don't CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1452 1 recall exactly the nature of them. I do recall at 2 one occasion while on my regular visits to Rome that 3 I did leave a folder with his name and information, a 4 copy of this letter with the congregation for the 5 clergy in Rome so that they might be informed that 6 he, in fact, was in Europe somewhere, and that he had 7 been formally removed from faculties and was not in 8 the graces of the Archdiocese so that if they were 9 contacted at all, they would know the situation. 10 Q. Several years after he left, you handled 11 the settlement of a claim made by a boy from Mora; is 12 that correct? 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: Of the Archdiocese. 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'm objecting to the 16 use of the word "handled." To the extent that he was 17 the Archbishop at the time, he may have had nominal 18 authority, but "handled" implies more. 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, did you in fact do 20 more than just have approval? 21 A. I did not handle all of the negotiations 22 or discussions, no, sir. 23 Q. Did you handle any of the negotiations? 24 A. Not negotiations, sir, no. 25 Q. But did you approve the settlement? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1453 1 A. I agreed with the proposal that they made 2 to me, yes. 3 Q. Did you happen to interview the boy from 4 Mora? 5 A. No, sir, I never met him. 6 Q. At the time that the boy from Mora brought 7 the charges or the allegations to the Archdiocese 8 through his attorney, did the Archdiocese conduct an 9 investigation into the possibility of other victims 10 in Mora? 11 A. Not to the best of my recollection. 12 Q. Why not? 13 A. It just did not occur to me, sir. 14 Q. Well, wasn't it like about 1990 or '89 or 15 something like that when this happened, when this 16 lawsuit or threatened lawsuit occurred? 17 A. I can't recall the dates, but we had not 18 had any contact with anyone from Mora in all of those 19 years since his departure from Mora until this 20 individual apparently -- in fact, I'm not certain if 21 we ever -- I'm sure he didn't contact the 22 Archdiocese. Apparently, he must have contacted an 23 attorney, and through that attorney eventually 24 contacted us, but no investigation was conducted, 25 sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1454 1 Q. Didn't you learn through the allegations 2 that were made by the boy in Mora that his 3 allegations were serious, weren't they? 4 A. I never spoke to the boy, sir. I never 5 received what the allegations were. 6 Q. You authorized a settlement in excess of 7 $500,000 in that case; is that right? 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1455 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (A discussion was held off the record.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1456 1 MR. TINKLER: Have you -- 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We talked. Go ahead. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, did you 4 negotiate the settlement? 5 A. I did not negotiate a settlement 6 personally. The Archdiocese, through its attorney, 7 did indeed deal with other attorneys. 8 Q. And you approved the settlement? 9 A. Yes, I eventually approved it. 10 Q. Is it fair to say that it was in excess of 11 $500,000? 12 A. No, sir, I don't have an exact 13 recollection, but I would say that that's far too 14 high, the figure that was settled. 15 Q. But you're not sure of the amount? 16 A. I can't recall the amount exactly, but I 17 would definitely say that that's very high. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1457 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, is it your opinion 25 that young men who are abused, such as the boy from CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1458 1 Mora, are damaged? 2 A. I am told, and I guess I would say I 3 certainly have read, as well as being told, that 4 people who are abused do suffer emotional stress or 5 damage to various degrees. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You can answer, if you 14 remember. 15 A. All I can recall is speaking with the 16 attorney. They introduced him to me. I recall he 17 indicated he had a brother who was a priest, and I 18 believe he just mentioned that this was a concern 19 that we should have policies or some guidelines or 20 understandings about. Certainly, I was not a 21 professional in that area. 22 Q. By the time that this occurred, this 23 settlement, you had already been to the Bishops' 24 conference on the subject of pedophilia in the 25 priesthood; is that correct? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1459 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And didn't you learn at that conference 3 that, at least what they knew about pedophiles at the 4 time was that they did act more than one time, that 5 they would have more than one victim? 6 A. I don't know whether that specific fact 7 was mentioned. It could very well have been. It was 8 an introductory type of conference to the whole issue 9 of molestation, which they then called pedophilia, 10 and was our first introduction to that area. 11 Q. And in 1990 is when you adopted your 12 policy? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. With regard to sexual abuse; is that 15 correct? 16 A. Reporting, right, um-hm. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1460 1 2 3 4 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Were you acquainted with 5 the Archbishop in New Orleans back in 1984? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Did you have knowledge about the case of 8 Father Gauthe in New Orleans at the time that it 9 occurred? 10 A. Not really an in-depth knowledge. I think 11 there was an article that appeared in a local 12 newspaper but beyond that, no. 13 Q. Was that case discussed at the Bishops' 14 conference in 1985? 15 A. Not discussed in any length that I can 16 recall. Perhaps a lot of that was privileged 17 information; I don't know. How do you pronounce the 18 last name or spell it? 19 Q. I'm pronouncing it Gauthe, G-A-U-T-H-E. 20 I don't know if that's correct. 21 A. I can't recall it. I don't know if it was 22 discussed to any great extent. It may have been the 23 -- what would I call it -- the occasion to bring a 24 lot of that to our attention, because it was covered, 25 apparently, nationally, but I couldn't give you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1461 1 details. 2 Q. You do recall the subject matter, though, 3 coming up? 4 A. In the newspapers, yes. 5 Q. And at the Bishops' conference? 6 A. I believe it was raised. 7 MR. TINKLER: Do you want to break for 8 lunch now? 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you done with -- 10 MR. TINKLER: I'm done with Father Lynn. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Have we finished the 12 Clive Lynn issues? 13 (The deposition recessed at 11:50 a.m. 14 and resumed at 1:00 p.m. as follows:) 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, during your 16 tenure as Archbishop, are you aware of any instances 17 where priests impregnated parishioners? 18 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 19 answered. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Asked and answered. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And what was your 23 personal view of how a priest that had impregnated a 24 parishioner, how that priest should be treated with 25 respect to future incardination in the diocese? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1462 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. His 2 personal view is irrelevant. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Personal view as 4 Archbishop. 5 A. I think when I became the Archbishop, my 6 view of an incidence of that nature would have 7 depended upon the individual involved, what had 8 occurred, and what the attitude of that individual 9 was as far as the incident, and what their own 10 resolve would be for the future. 11 I would not have looked upon one incident 12 as being totally destructive of his priestly 13 character or priestly resolve. 14 Q. But as I understand you, you're saying it 15 would depend on how he reacted to the incident? 16 A. I would have to look at -- yeah, I think 17 every incident is different. 18 Q. I think it was yesterday I was asking you 19 about where you would get the information out of a 20 file regarding ordination and the pertinent personal 21 information -- 22 A. Right. 23 Q. -- without having to go inside the file? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And you indicated there was a sheet or CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1463 1 sheets that would detail in summary fashion kind of 2 the history of the particular priest in the diocese. 3 Is that correct? 4 A. It was just a little sort of a booklet, I 5 guess, of some kind, binder kept by the secretary for 6 easy reference, right. 7 (Exhibit 109 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you 10 what's marked as 109 and ask you to review this 11 document, which is what I believe is the type of 12 document you're referring to with respect to John 13 Esquibel. 14 A. (Witness referred to document.) 15 MS. KENNEDY: Did you have a question 16 about it? 17 MR. TINKLER: I thought he's reviewing it 18 still. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Is Exhibit 109, is it 21 the personal data sheet -- I'm not sure what you call 22 it -- for John Esquibel? 23 A. Yes, sir, it is. 24 Q. Is it the type we were talking about 25 before? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1464 1 A. Precisely. 2 Q. As I understand it, this document, along 3 with one for each priest, would be kept in a separate 4 notebook? 5 A. Not -- well, it was in a notebook for the 6 priests who were active. Those who were deceased or 7 no longer a member of the diocese would not be in 8 there, but the priests who were active. 9 Q. All active priests would have sheets 10 similar to this in one notebook for easy access by 11 your secretary; is that correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. As I understand it, this particular 14 document would not be within the file; is that right? 15 MR. COLLIER: In what file? 16 MR. TINKLER: The personnel file. 17 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily. They may 18 have similar information, maybe they even have a copy 19 if the person wants a copy, but this would be kept 20 for the specific use of the secretary in that other 21 file. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When did you first meet 23 John Esquibel? 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you can remember. 25 THE WITNESS: I can't remember a specific CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1465 1 instance that would have been the first time. As you 2 recall, I served as a priest of the Archdiocese for 3 14 years prior to becoming the Archbishop. Father 4 John Esquibel was ordained a number of years after 5 myself. I don't recall how many years. And his -- 6 Q. If you want to look, it will tell you. 7 A. Oh, okay. Basically, the first eight 8 years of my priesthood were spent in teaching at St. 9 Pius X High School and education in Washington, D.C., 10 and I just had very little opportunity, occasion, 11 really, to meet the pastors or the priests in general 12 of the Archdiocese. 13 The Archbishop simply did not call 14 frequent or, if I recall, any gatherings of the 15 clergy together. So I don't know whether I had even 16 met him those first eight years. I can't recall 17 that. 18 Q. What are those first eight years? 19 A. For my eight years of ordination, in other 20 words, 1960 to '68. After that, I went to Mosquero. 21 That's not exactly the hub of New Mexico, and I 22 didn't have an opportunity to meet many priests there 23 either. 24 I guess in short what I'm saying is, even 25 though I'd been ordained for 14 years, I don't recall CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1466 1 meeting him until maybe -- maybe a year or so before 2 my own ordination as Archbishop. I may have met 3 him. I just don't -- the only recollection of really 4 meeting him took place after I was Archbishop. 5 Q. Okay. What are the circumstances that you 6 do recall after you were Archbishop? 7 A. Apparently, Father Esquibel had been 8 working in the State of California, I forget what 9 it's called here, "Continuing education, Mental 10 Research Institute, in Palo Alto," and then working 11 with the University of New Mexico in the School of 12 Medicine. That isn't even it either. He was -- 13 yeah, that was it. 14 And I had invited him, after I became the 15 Archbishop, I invited Father Esquibel to return to 16 the priestly ministry rather than to be working in 17 this special ministry to the mentally ill. He 18 considered it and agreed to it, and I recall then we 19 had a meeting for that purpose. 20 Q. And when you invited him back into the 21 ministry in the -- the parish ministry, did you do 22 that by letter, or was it by telephone call or 23 personal meeting? 24 A. I don't have any recollection one way or 25 the other in that. My recollection is just that we CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1467 1 were trying to establish the number of priests that 2 we had and who was doing what and where. 3 As I had indicated earlier, I really had 4 no -- I wasn't given a list or whatever by Archbishop 5 Davis when he left if priests were doing this or 6 doing that. And we were in the process of trying to 7 find out what number we could plan on for pastoral 8 ministry in our parishes in the Archdiocese for any 9 special ministries that we might need. 10 Q. Were you aware of Father Esquibel's 11 history at the time that you invited him back to 12 administer, you know, in the parishes, to do ministry 13 in the parishes? 14 A. No, sir. I hadn't met him really up to 15 that time, and I really didn't know him, as such, 16 other than he was a priest of the Archdiocese and had 17 served for a number of years, but I didn't know him 18 as a person, individual. 19 Q. In your previous deposition, you had 20 indicated that you were aware that Father Esquibel 21 had fathered a child; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. That awareness, however, I recall 23 was brought to my attention by our attorney, the 24 Archdiocesan attorney, and I could not swear exactly 25 when it was, but I believe it must have been the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1468 1 following summer or so after his return. I don't 2 recall knowledge of that nature when he returned or 3 in our discussion. 4 Q. I know you've indicated you don't remember 5 when it was -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- but do you remember if it was after you 8 were Archbishop? 9 A. That the information was given to me? 10 Q. No, that the event occurred. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: He just testified he 12 doesn't know when the event occurred. 13 MR. TINKLER: I'm trying to see if it was 14 before or after he was Archbishop. 15 THE WITNESS: No, I think that the event 16 of fathering the child had occurred before I was 17 Archbishop, but it was brought to my attention after 18 I was Archbishop. 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I take it when you 20 invited Father Esquibel back into the ministry, in 21 the parish ministry, in 1974, you didn't review his 22 personnel file; is that correct? 23 A. No, sir, I had not. 24 Q. Let me ask you this. Have you ever 25 reviewed his personnel file? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1469 1 A. No, sir. 2 (Exhibit 110 was marked for 3 identification.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1470 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 (Exhibit 111 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 16 as Exhibit 111, which is a letter from Archbishop 17 Davis to dated -- I can't see the date 18 -- February 5, 1974. Have you reviewed that? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Does that appear to indicate that 21 Archbishop Davis sent a check to to pay 22 for half of the birthing cost? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. It indicated, or at least asked if $700 25 would cover the entire cost? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1471 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Did you learn that the Archdiocese had 3 paid -- I'm assuming that Archbishop Davis didn't pay 4 it out of his own pocket, but either he paid it out 5 of his own pocket or the Archdiocese paid for the 6 birthing expense? 7 MS. KENNEDY: What's the question? 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you learn this when 9 you first learned that Father Esquibel had fathered a 10 child while he was a priest? 11 A. I don't recall any of this detail at all. 12 I wasn't aware of this. 13 Q. Is it your opinion that if -- I had asked 14 you earlier how you felt about priests impregnating 15 parishioners, and you indicated that it depended how 16 they reacted, how they handled the situation? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Would you have expected a priest to have 19 been responsible for his actions, financially 20 responsible, at least, before you would want to let 21 him back into the ministry? 22 A. I think that would indicate goodwill on 23 their part or at least some kind of repentance or 24 whatever. 25 Q. And I take it since you didn't know about CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1472 1 it at the time, you didn't have any discussions with 2 Father Esquibel about this event when you invited him 3 back into the parish ministry? 4 A. That's right, sir, to the best of my 5 recollection, I cannot recall any discussion of this 6 when he first came. 7 (Exhibit 112 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you a 10 copy of Exhibit 112, which is a letter from you to 11 John Esquibel dated December 16, 1974. 12 A. (Witness referred to document.) 13 Q. Have you reviewed that? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Does Exhibit 112 appear to be your first 16 assignment for Father John Esquibel? 17 A. Under my own tenure, yes. 18 Q. This is the same year that apparently he 19 had -- at least the Archdiocese had been contacted 20 about the birth of the child; is that correct? 21 A. True, yes, at least it seems to be. I 22 don't know whether there was a date. 23 Q. There was a document -- 24 A. Was there a date on that? 25 Q. There was a document dated February 5, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1473 1 1974. 2 A. Oh, okay. 3 Q. Is it fair to say you didn't talk to 4 Archbishop Davis about John Esquibel when you took 5 over? 6 A. I didn't talk to him about any of the 7 priests, unfortunately. 8 Q. When did you learn that Father Esquibel 9 had fathered a child, yearwise? 10 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. You already 11 asked it, and he already told you he's not quite sure 12 on this. 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I know. Was it in the 14 '70's? Was it shortly after you were Archbishop? 15 A. I have no exact recollection, and I have 16 to share that, but it must have been -- well, it was 17 certainly after he was assigned, but I cannot swear 18 whether it was six months or a year, a year and a 19 half. I know it was brought to my attention by our 20 diocesan attorney at that time. 21 Q. Was it within that time range, say, six 22 months to a year and a half? 23 A. I couldn't swear to it but -- 24 Q. Do you recall what you did when you found 25 out? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1474 1 A. I can't recall the reason why it was 2 brought to my attention at that time either, for what 3 purpose. I just can't recall. I recall the 4 attorney, but I can't recall what all he was bringing 5 to my attention. 6 Q. Do you recall if you confronted Father 7 Esquibel about the incident when you learned of it? 8 A. Yes. I recall that the three of us were 9 meeting on it, and he admitted that to me. The three 10 of us were together, and I'm not certain whether 11 anyone else was there from Social Services or not. I 12 just -- I know the three, at least three of us were 13 there; maybe just those three, maybe just himself, 14 the attorney, and myself. 15 Q. You've indicated that you don't exactly 16 recall the specifics of why it was brought to your 17 attention? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. Would it refresh your memory to know that 20 Father Esquibel had not been paying for the support 21 of the child? Could that have been the reason that 22 it was brought to your attention? 23 A. There is something now. I'm glad you 24 mentioned that. I think that may have been the 25 reason -- in trying to recall that now, that may very CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1475 1 well have been the reason, support of the child. 2 Q. And do you recall what action, if any, you 3 took as a result of the incident or as a result of 4 your learning of the incident? 5 A. No. Having made that comment, I believe 6 that -- I believe I required Father Esquibel to 7 comply with whatever was necessary, I don't know, but 8 you mentioned this support, and that rings a bell, 9 and I think I was requiring that of him at that time. 10 Q. Do you recall if you took any kind of 11 disciplinary action towards Father Esquibel as a 12 result of the incident? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. You don't recall, or you didn't? 15 A. I don't recall it, what I may have taken 16 or what I may have done, but I don't think I took 17 anything special at that time. The incident 18 apparently, as you've mentioned here, had occurred 19 under the tenure of Archbishop Davis. You mentioned 20 February? 21 Q. February of '74. At least that's when 22 there's notice involved. Do you know if you required 23 Father Esquibel to seek any type of counseling 24 relative to his vows? 25 A. I can't recall what I may have asked him CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1476 1 to do at that time. 2 Q. Let me ask you this. If you had ordered 3 him or directed him to do anything, seek counseling 4 or whatever -- 5 A. That's just not -- 6 Q. -- if you had done that, would it have 7 been the subject of a document in your file? 8 A. It's possible, or I could have directed 9 him verbally to someone in Catholic Social Services 10 or one of the priests or whatever, but I don't recall 11 that. 12 Q. After that incident -- well, is it fair to 13 say you never restricted his faculties as a result? 14 A. Yes, sir, that's fair. 15 Q. When Roger Martinez had the same 16 circumstances, what did you do with respect to his 17 standing with the Archdiocese? 18 A. When the event surrounding Father Roger 19 Martinez was brought to my attention, I met with him 20 to discuss that and then directed him to seek therapy 21 from a local therapist in the community. 22 Q. And you do seem to remember that as 23 opposed to remembering doing the same thing with 24 Father Esquibel? 25 A. I recall that because that happened more CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1477 1 recently than the other. 2 Q. Okay. Do you recall having any complaints 3 about Father Esquibel, about his conduct as a priest 4 after you learned of this incident regarding the 5 fathering of a child? 6 A. No. The word "after" covers a long period 7 of time. 8 Q. I know. 9 A. Could you specify the period? 10 Q. Let's say in the '70's. 11 A. I don't recall any specific complaints, 12 but I do recall concerns of brother priests. And 13 that was that they felt Father Esquibel was drinking 14 more often or quantity, whatever, more than he 15 should, and they felt that he may have a problem. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Subsequent to the time that you had 24 assigned Father Esquibel in to parish work, did you 25 become better acquainted with him? Obviously, you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1478 1 didn't know him before, but did you become well 2 acquainted with him? 3 A. Not well. I wouldn't characterize our 4 relationship as a very close relationship, no more 5 than I would have become acquainted with other 6 pastors that I would have assigned, and perhaps even 7 less so because I had not really known him prior to 8 that time. So we were not the type of people that 9 would be doing things together or even having a meal 10 together outside of a meeting, whatever, at his 11 parish. 12 Q. Do you recall who Father Esquibel's, which 13 fellow priests he was friendly with or closest to? 14 A. Golly, at that time, I don't know, sir, 15 who his friends would have been. As I say, I just 16 was not close to him personally, and I don't know 17 what his own association would have been. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1479 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1480 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1481 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1482 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1483 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1484 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1485 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1486 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1487 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1488 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1489 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1490 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1491 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1492 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1493 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1494 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1495 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1496 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1497 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. Do you recall receiving any allegations 17 from parishioners regarding his -- any sexual 18 allegations regarding Father Esquibel prior to 1984 19 when you had the intervention? 20 A. No, sir, I don't recall. No, I don't 21 recall any complaints prior to 1984. 22 Q. Do you recall any complaints subsequent to 23 1984? I'm talking about sexual allegations. 24 A. Yes, sir, I can recall, but I don't recall 25 names or -- I hope I don't get them confused. I can CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1498 1 recall one, at least what it was about. And at that 2 same time maybe there was a mention also of some type 3 of concern about sexual misconduct. 4 But the event or the allegation that I 5 recall -- because I met with the lady, that's why I 6 can recall -- dealt with, well, an internal parish 7 affair. Apparently, she had been in charge of a St. 8 9 10 11 12 13 Apparently, she had been in charge 14 of this ministry for a number of years and then had 15 some kind of a run-in or a disagreement with the 16 pastor where it became quite personal between them, 17 and I believe she was removed from that position. 18 She asked to see me and related all of 19 this to me. And I think, and I just would not be 20 able to swear to it, but I think she may have 21 included as part of her concern rumors or talk or 22 something, of bringing something of that nature to my 23 attention. I think that was the occasion. 24 Q. Do you recall when that was? 25 A. Probably in the -- I think it must have CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1499 1 been in the late '80's. The reason I say that is 2 they had remodeled a parish hall, and I had gone to 3 their celebration for it, to bless the new hall, and 4 I think that she had referred to, I guess -- at the 5 hall everyone looked great, everyone seemed to be in 6 unity; so I think this followed that blessing, and 7 that blessing I know occurred in the late '80's. 8 Q. Other than the circumstance you've just 9 described, can you recall any other allegations of 10 sexual misconduct after 1984 that were brought to 11 your attention regarding Father Esquibel? 12 A. Not at this moment, I can't recall any 13 specific instances. 14 Q. You do recall, don't you, the claims or 15 the allegations that were made against Father 16 Esquibel once the Archdiocese became aware of various 17 lawsuits that were being filed against various 18 priests? 19 A. Father Wolf informed me of complaints, and 20 we confronted Father Esquibel. I don't recall the 21 total confrontation, but it was a confrontation which 22 I would not take no for, and that was that he had to 23 enter into a therapeutic, residential therapeutic 24 program immediately. And even though initially it 25 was resisted, within a half hour or so he agreed it CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1500 1 was the best thing. And so he did then prepare for 2 that, and I arranged for that to take place at 3 Southdown. 4 Q. And when you confronted Father Esquibel 5 about these allegations, did he admit to the 6 allegations? 7 A. No, he didn't admit to allegations. I 8 think he was resistant and even was resistant to the 9 idea of residential treatment, but as I say, after 10 about a half hour of talk, he finally agreed. 11 Q. When he agreed to the treatment, did he 12 also agree that the allegations were true? 13 A. Not to my recollection. I'm wondering 14 what all was brought to his attention at that 15 specific time. I just don't recall the whole gamut 16 of what we -- 17 Q. Do you recall if he admitted to any of the 18 allegations of sexual misconduct? 19 A. No, sir, I could not say under oath that I 20 recall that. 21 Q. When you did confront him, who was present 22 with you? 23 A. Father -- I want to say Father Ron Wolf. 24 I think it was the Chancellor. I think it was Father 25 Ron Wolf at that time, October. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1501 1 Q. Did you require Father Esquibel to resign 2 his ministry at Los Lunas? 3 A. Yes, sir. I told him that he would not be 4 returning to that assignment; so it was best that he 5 resign immediately and then go to Guest House or, 6 rather, to Southdown. 7 Q. Do you recall if when you received or when 8 you met with the woman in the late '80's regarding 9 her disagreement with Father Esquibel and your 10 thought that there was sexual misconduct rumors, in 11 any event, mentioned, did you talk to Father Esquibel 12 at that time about the rumors? 13 A. I know I talked to him subsequent 14 regarding her complaints. I could not say under oath 15 whether I brought that to his attention. I may very 16 well have mentioned that. But I know we discussed 17 the other issue, and my concern was that they would 18 reconcile in some fashion for the sake of the poor. 19 Q. Do you know if -- I'll represent to you 20 that there is nothing in Father Esquibel's file 21 referencing -- which is on the outside of the file, 22 there are no correspondence or any letters or 23 anything regarding his treatment at Rochester or at 24 any time. Do you know why that would be? 25 A. I don't know. I don't know whether CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1502 1 Rochester was sending out any information like that, 2 to be very frank. In fact, I can't even recall 3 seeing any kind of written correspondence from them. 4 Q. You did indicate that there were reports, 5 you know, when they would send him back? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Where did those reports -- were those 8 reports written? 9 A. Reports -- 10 Q. From the treatment center? 11 MS. KENNEDY: Just so we're clear, are we 12 talking about Guest House? 13 MR. TINKLER: Guest House. 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: In Rochester? 15 MR. TINKLER: In Rochester. 16 A. I think what I was referring to, and I 17 hope I didn't confuse you, was the notifications to 18 me that they would be having these update programs, 19 and I was encouraged to remind Father Esquibel that 20 he should attend one of these and take steps to 21 arrange it with them. But I don't recall reports, 22 updating reports about how he was doing. 23 I know we were encouraged to call. I can 24 recall that. I never visited Guest House personally. 25 Q. Do you remember if, I think earlier you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1503 1 said that when a priest returned, and particularly 2 when Father Esquibel returned in 1984, that you 3 didn't have a particular plan in place because, I 4 thought you said you had received a report or a 5 release or something from the Guest House, you know, 6 letting you know that he was okay to go back into the 7 ministry? 8 A. Well, I'm sure I used that language, but I 9 can't say whether that report was written or verbal. 10 If it was written, I would expect it to be here. I 11 don't know where it's at, if it was written. On the 12 other hand, if it was a verbal report from them, then 13 I would have simply communicated the verbal report to 14 the Chancellor and to the Personnel Board, and that 15 would have been it. 16 I think most alcoholics, it's simply what 17 the follow-up is going to be. 18 Q. I understand. I just want to make sure, 19 you don't know whether it was written or oral? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Do you recall if it was -- I think I asked 22 you yesterday if you normally received medical 23 reports, and you said no; correct? 24 A. That's right, that's true. 25 Q. Do you recall during your tenure as CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1504 1 Archbishop ever asking for any written data from any 2 of the treatment centers the priests went to? 3 A. No, I can't recall requesting any specific 4 data, hm-um. 5 Q. Do you recall if during the early '80's, 6 if Father Esquibel was friends with Father Griego? 7 A. I think they were. Certainly they were. 8 They knew each other. I think they were closer in 9 age. I don't know if they were -- no, I don't think 10 they were classmates, but they were closer in age. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1505 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall ever 7 attending social functions at Father Griego's rectory 8 at which -- I think it was Queen of Heaven, at which 9 Father Esquibel was present? 10 A. No, sir, I don't recall seeing Father 11 Esquibel. I did attend a couple of social functions 12 there, as I've testified, but the people present 13 there were people of schools, religious education 14 programs. Like I mentioned, one occasion at 15 Christmas, they were making tamales, but I don't 16 recall Father Esquibel being present. 17 MR. TINKLER: I'm finished with Father 18 Esquibel, if you want to take a break. 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: How are you coming with 20 Archbishop Sanchez? 21 MR. TINKLER: We'll get done today. 22 (A recess was taken.) 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop Sanchez, did 24 you know ? 25 A. Yes, sir, I did. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1506 1 Q. When did you first meet ? 2 A. I believe I met in a 3 personal way for the first time perhaps around 1972 4 or '73, and that was on the occasion of a pilgrimage 5 for vocations which he had begun around those years, 6 which consisted in a pilgrimage or march from his 7 parish, at that time I believe it was in to 8 Chimayo, and invited the priests and of course a good 9 number of laymen as well as their sons, if they would 10 join them, to join us in this 100-mile pilgrimage. 11 It was a five-day event, week-long event. 12 I believe my first time was on one of 13 those pilgrimages, and I do recall that the year that 14 I was named as the Archbishop in 1974, that I joined 15 them for one day on that pilgrimage. 16 Q. Did you know him on a social basis? 17 A. We were friends. We didn't see each other 18 that frequently. I really knew him principally as 19 his Archbishop. And whatever assignments I would 20 have for him were parish visitations, but we never 21 had an opportunity to spend any other time together. 22 Q. Do you recall where his first assignment 23 was after you were Archbishop? 24 A. No, sir, I don't recall his first 25 assignment. I do know that he was at . I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1507 1 recall that and a couple of other assignments, but I 2 don't recall where his first assignment was. He 3 would have been normally an associate pastor 4 somewhere. 5 Q. Do you remember him being the pastor in 6 Taos? 7 A. Yes, at one point in his priestly career, 8 he was pastor in Taos. 9 Q. Do you recall when that was? 10 A. I don't have any dates in mind, sir. I 11 believe it was the latter part of his priestly 12 career, and I say latter part because he died about 13 two years ago or so. It must have been in the late 14 '80's. 15 Q. Was -- how old was he, if 16 you knew? 17 A. He was younger than I; so he must have 18 been a young man. I think he was, oh, let's see. He 19 must have been ordained around 1968, '69, '70, and he 20 probably was in his late '20's when he was ordained. 21 So probably born around the early '40's. 22 Q. Do you know, how did he die? 23 A. He died of cancer. 24 Q. Do you remember during your tenure as 25 Archbishop receiving any complaints of any sexual CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1508 1 allegations against ? 2 A. Yes, sir, there was one allegation brought 3 to my attention. It saddened me very much because -- 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Wait for a question. 5 That's all he asked. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. One allegation. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Do you recall, was still an 21 active pastor at that time when you received the 22 complaint? 23 A. No, sir, he was not. At that time he was 24 operating or caring -- he was just a person to take 25 care of the facility at . So he was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1509 1 making certain that roofs weren't leaking and that 2 everything was taking place properly for two priests 3 who were retired there and caring for them that way, 4 but he had no pastoral assignment. 5 Q. Prior to that allegation in the late 6 '80's, had you received any allegations of 7 misconduct regarding ? 8 A. To the best of my recollection, no. 9 Q. You said you were saddened when you 10 received that report. Why was that? 11 A. Because his strong dedication to vocations 12 in the archdiocese. He was a strong pastor, I 13 thought a very fine pastor. He was a fine pastor, in 14 spite of this allegation. I think his work with 15 people throughout the diocese was quite evident, and 16 people would testify to that. In fact, their 17 presence at his funeral was overwhelming. 18 He was a fine man, and I believe that's 19 what saddened me was to hear that there was something 20 else in his life. 21 Q. Did you confront him about the allegation? 22 A. Yes, sir, I did confront him about the 23 allegation. 24 Q. And did he admit to the allegation? 25 A. Not in words, no kind of confession, but CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1510 1 his manner, I guess, gave me the impression he was 2 accepting what I was saying, yes. 3 Q. At that point in career, 4 was he already ill? 5 A. I don't believe he was aware of his 6 illness at that time. The diagnosis would not come 7 in for, oh, many months yet. 8 Q. Was there any action taken by the 9 Archdiocese with respect to status 10 as a priest? 11 A. I did not withdraw faculties. The 12 allegation mentioned had occurred quite a few years 13 before that time, and I did require 14 however, to go into therapy with a local therapist, 15 and he did that. And since he was not dealing with 16 any parishioners in his current assignment other than 17 caring for retired priests, I took no further action. 18 Q. Do you recall the specifics of the 19 allegation that you confronted about? 20 A. I only repeated to him what I had heard, 21 what had been made known to me by the then pastor at 22 23 Q. What were those allegations? 24 A. The pastor had informed me that a 25 gentleman of his parish, who was an adult, had CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1511 1 approached him. The pastor and this person knew each 2 other well. Apparently, the person was having 3 difficulty, family difficulties, difficulties with 4 his job, I believe, also. And in the course of 5 counseling the person, the individual informed the 6 priest that he felt he had been abused as a youth by 7 . 8 And they were talking about him receiving 9 psychological or professional therapy. And the 10 priest spoke with the family, and the family asked if 11 -- authorized him to inform me and see if we could 12 assist with any psychological assistance. On that 13 occasion, the pastor informed me of the situation, 14 and we authorized immediate assistance. 15 Q. Do you recall, was the assistance that was 16 rendered to that victim, was the assistance clergy 17 counseling, or was it independent psychological 18 counseling? 19 A. It was professional counseling from a 20 counselor of their choosing, and they chose someone 21 in the Taos area. I don't even know the name of the 22 person, but took care of the bills for that 23 counseling. 24 Q. Do you know if that particular individual 25 has, at least as of the date you left the Archdiocese CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1512 1 -- had filed a lawsuit against the Archdiocese? 2 A. Up to the date that I left, I was unaware 3 of any lawsuit being filed by him. 4 Q. Did you know his name? 5 A. I was told the name originally by the 6 pastor, but I could not recall that name at this 7 time. 8 Q. To your knowledge, prior to this incident 9 where you learned about in 1989, had 10 undergone any type of treatment during his 11 tenure as a priest in this diocese, treatment for 12 emotional or mental illness? 13 A. Not at my insistence. I believe that he 14 had received counseling from a therapist in town, 15 perhaps the same one that he saw later, because he 16 was trying to arrive at a decision for his own life, 17 whether he should leave the diocesan priesthood and 18 join the Franciscan religious communities. 19 He in fact spent some time with the 20 Franciscans, trying to test out his own vocation, and 21 trying to decide just what he really should be 22 doing. I just have something in the back of my mind, 23 a recollection, that he was in fact seeing a 24 therapist, helping him work through those decisions. 25 Q. Do you recall when that would have been CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1513 1 timewise, datewise? 2 A. Just prior to that time, perhaps around 3 '87. 4 Q. Are you aware of any other treatment he 5 may have received prior to '87? 6 A. No, sir, nothing that I can recall. 7 Q. Are you aware of any other emotional or 8 mental condition that he had that would have affected 9 his priesthood, for which he didn't seek treatment? 10 A. No. never impressed me as 11 an emotional person. He seemed to be quite balanced 12 in his approach to people and work. He was more on 13 the serious side to address issues, had a very 14 determined way of approaching things, just exhibited 15 good maturity. 16 Q. I think I asked you a few days ago, and I 17 just want to make sure, about some of the priests 18 that we have claims against. I believe you indicated 19 you had no knowledge of who was 20 at Santa Cruz; is that correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And that you did not even know the man? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And I believe you indicated 25 was a name you recognized but probably not the same CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1514 1 man we're talking about? 2 A. I was not certain about the first name. 3 Q. You were unfamiliar with any of the Pecos 4 monks that we had mentioned their names; is that 5 correct? 6 A. I -- 7 Q. do you remember that name? 8 A. The name -- I've heard the name. He's not 9 a priest. I think he's just a lay person at least 10 I've heard of. 11 Q. The one you're -- 12 A. The one I'm thinking of, right. 13 Q. Is the one you're thinking of, is he a lay 14 person who's active in the church? 15 A. I don't know his status at this time. I 16 think he was active, I don't know how many years ago, 17 but I haven't heard or seen of him in many years. 18 Q. The individual that you're thinking of, 19 was he someone who had attended the Benedictine 20 seminary? 21 A. No, not that I know of, hm-um. 22 Q. And to your knowledge, does this 23 individual still live in the Albuquerque area? 24 A. I have no idea. 25 Q. Is that where he lived the last time you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1515 1 knew? 2 A. No. I think, and I could be mistaken, I 3 think he lived in Santa Fe, and that would be many 4 years ago, but I don't know where he would be living 5 now. 6 Q. How about ? 7 A. I know the name, and I 8 recall an individual. He was a priest, not of this 9 Archdiocese, I believe from a diocese in Kentucky, 10 but I'm not absolutely certain. 11 Q. Was he ever active in this diocese, at 12 least while you were Archbishop? 13 A. No, not while I was Archbishop. No, my 14 knowledge of him was quite a few years, I think I met 15 him, it must have been a good ten years before I 16 became the Archbishop. 17 Q. And when you did meet him, was he active 18 in this diocese? 19 A. I think. Again, my recollection is going 20 back 30 years. I believe he was serving as an 21 associate or else in residence at Our Lady of Fatima 22 in Albuquerque. 23 Q. But it's your memory, in any event, that 24 he was not incardinated in this diocese? 25 A. No, and I don't believe he ever was. I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1516 1 cannot recall that. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1517 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1518 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you know if there was 2 a file labeled the "Servants of" -- or titled the 3 "Servants of the Paraclete" already in existence 4 when you became Archbishop? 5 A. I could not say that I saw that file or 6 can recall it specifically. As I indicated earlier, 7 we had files normally for those people who had 8 ministries in the Archdiocese and assignments like 9 that, like all the religious sisters who have 10 ministries teaching in schools or working in 11 hospitals; the priests the same way. 12 The Servants of the Paraclete did not have 13 any ministry other than one parish, and that's the 14 little parish, Our Lady of the Assumption parish in 15 Jemez Springs. 16 Q. And I believe you'd already indicated you 17 had files for orders -- 18 A. Right. 19 Q. -- that were operating within your 20 jurisdiction? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Even though you had never seen that 23 letter, had you ever heard anyone like Archbishop 24 Davis or someone else, Archbishop Byrne, in a higher 25 position like Archbishop talk about the "island" CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1519 1 that's mentioned by Father Gerald? 2 A. No, sir, I -- 3 Q. Do you know what I'm referring to? 4 A. I don't know what you're referring to. 5 MR. TINKLER: Okay. Let me hand you 6 Exhibit 118. 7 (Exhibit 118 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) It's a letter from 10 Archbishop Davis to Father Fitzgerald in 1964. 11 A. '65. 12 Q. '65. I'm sorry. Have you finished 13 reviewing Exhibit 118? 14 A. Yes, sir, I have. 15 Q. Have you ever seen that letter before? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Do you notice on page 2, at least it 18 appears to be a direction to sell an island. Do you 19 see that? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Do you have any knowledge at all about 22 what that's referring to? 23 A. No, sir. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1520 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Archbishop, would you have had the ability to order 10 the Servants of the Paraclete to sell something they 11 owned? 12 A. I would not have had the authority. At 13 the time that the Archbishop was writing his letter, 14 I have to presume that the Servants of the Paraclete 15 were still under his direct jurisdiction and had not 16 yet become pontifically approved. Once they became a 17 pontifical religious community, their authority came 18 to them directly from the Roman congregations and not 19 from the local ordinary, the Archbishop. 20 So he was acting in a different capacity, 21 in a sense, as Father Protector -- not protector so 22 much, at least adviser to them, and that was an 23 authority that I did not possess. 24 Q. So by the time you became Archbishop, they 25 did have pontifical authority? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1521 1 A. Pontifical status, yes. 2 Q. Pontifical status? Does that mean that 3 the Servants, the only entity that could direct their 4 actions was Rome? 5 A. Unless they were ministering in the 6 Archdiocese, like running a parish, running a school 7 or whatever; otherwise, they're independent in their 8 internal operation. 9 Q. Just briefly, we had talked the other day 10 about the Sons of the Holy Family and the fact that 11 you had, I think in later years, suggested they 12 expand their ministry in this diocese? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 (Exhibit 119 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. I'm going to hand you what's marked as 17 Exhibit 119. You don't need to read the whole 18 exhibit. These are Personnel Board meeting minutes 19 from November 3, 1987. And I believe it's on page 2, 20 paragraph H), there's a reference to the Sons of the 21 Holy Family. Would you read that, please. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Have you read that? That reference 24 indicates that a letter had been received by the 25 Archdiocese from the Sons of the Holy Family; is that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1522 1 correct? 2 A. That's what it sounds like, yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you know, is this regarding the 4 expansion of their ministries? Do you recall, is 5 this the time frame you were talking about? 6 MR. HARRIGAN: I'm going to object as 7 asking him to speculate. 8 THE WITNESS: The note indicates, it says 9 that "They may be able to continue at Sacred Heart 10 and possibly receive a parish with a school." They 11 had not yet come to any conclusion as to that 12 expansion to that extent. Again, the memo indicates 13 that I had at least advised them or given them 14 information regarding this other facility. 15 Q. And was this typical of your communication 16 with the Sons of the Holy Family? You would 17 correspond by mail, they would send you letters, you 18 would send them letters during your tenure? 19 A. If there was need to correspond, yes. 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1523 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1524 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1525 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1526 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1527 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1528 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1529 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1530 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1531 1 2 3 4 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you understand that 5 some, if not all, or most of the victims have used 6 pseudonyms when they brought the suit, you know, 7 brought the claims against the Archdiocese? I think 8 all of ours have used John Does, and some plaintiffs 9 have used initials. Are you aware of that? 10 A. I was aware that John Does were used 11 frequently, but I wasn't aware of the total number. 12 Q. Were you aware that the Archdiocese 13 attorneys were now trying to force victims to 14 disclose their names publicly? 15 A. I was not aware of that, no. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1532 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1533 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1534 1 2 3 4 5 Q. Can you understand why victims of sexual 6 abuse by priests would bring their claims without 7 giving their names, why they would want to do that? 8 A. I would have some understanding of that, 9 yes. 10 Q. And in those instances where the victim 11 has sought privacy, or at least not the disclosure of 12 their names, would you agree with the Archdiocese 13 lawyers attempting to force the victims to disclose 14 their names? 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. I'm going 16 to instruct the witness not to answer the question. 17 It can't possibly lead to the discovery of evidence 18 that's even remotely material, and it asks for the 19 Archbishop to comment on the legal strategy of 20 counsel that is not his own. 21 MS. KENNEDY: And also he's not competent, 22 because he's not a lawyer, to comment on the legal 23 strategy. I join in the objection. 24 MR. BENNETT: You know, there's presently 25 pending a motion by the Archdiocese -- wait, wait -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1535 1 that has yet to be heard, and I think what he has to 2 say on this point may be evidence with respect to the 3 propriety of that motion, which I have inquired of 4 counsel for the Archdiocese of why such a motion 5 would be brought, what useful purpose it would serve, 6 what is the legal strategy that you hope to pursue 7 that has any -- if you're interested, on one hand, in 8 the victims -- 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, this 10 motion was filed -- Mr. Bennett, this -- 11 MR. BENNETT: Let me finish. If you're 12 interested, on one hand, in the welfare of the 13 victims, why on earth would you move to disclose 14 their names and make them public? And I think that 15 there will be a hearing -- I know there will be a 16 hearing on this motion, and I think his testimony is 17 relevant. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Was the motion filed 19 during Archbishop Sanchez's tenure as Archbishop of 20 this Archdiocese? I believe that's not the case. 21 MR. BENNETT: It doesn't make any 22 difference. 23 MS. KENNEDY: It calls for speculation on 24 the part of this witness as to -- 25 MR. BENNETT: Let him speculate. I'd like CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1536 1 to hear it. 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'm not going to allow 3 him to speculate. If it calls for speculation, 4 Archbishop, we can't answer the question. 5 MR. BENNETT: I don't think it calls for 6 speculation. I think we're entitled to hear his 7 answer. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let us put the question 9 on the record. We'll go to the judge this 10 afternoon. We have another day of deposition. If 11 the judge requires an answer to the question, we'll 12 bring everyone back in, and we'll answer the question 13 tomorrow morning. Next question. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I have a series of 15 questions along this line, and without going through 16 them, they're asking, for instance, what 17 responsibility, if any, Archbishop, you feel you have 18 to the members of the parishes of the Archdiocese to 19 communicate with them about the priests and 20 pedophilia? 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's been asked and 22 answered to the extent that there has been at least 23 20 questions during the course of the last four days 24 -- three days, and also in January about why he did 25 or did not go to the parishioners. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1537 1 MR. TINKLER: No, I understand that. I'm 2 talking about today, about the healing process of the 3 church. 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: He's no longer the 5 Archbishop today. It would be highly inappropriate 6 for him to do that. That's Archbishop Sheehan's 7 position now. 8 Fine, put it on the record. I'm 9 instructing him not to answer. And why don't you put 10 all your questions quickly on the record. Then on 11 the record we will undertake discussions about which 12 judge we will go to this afternoon if you desire to 13 request judicial intervention to require an answer to 14 these questions. If you do not, then I will presume 15 at the conclusion of these questions, we will end the 16 deposition. 17 And I am giving you an opportunity. I'm 18 saying, I'm available this afternoon. We will go to 19 the judge, and the Archbishop will be available to 20 finish the deposition tomorrow. But let's make a 21 record on the questions so we know them. 22 If you'd like, Mr. Tinkler, what I would 23 do is I would call Robert Thompson now, since he's on 24 the protective order, contact his office, and we can 25 set a hearing now so we can make sure he's CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1538 1 available. And then you can continue this deposition 2 this afternoon, putting your questions on the record, 3 so we know what we're doing at the judge's office. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1539 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. Do you recall if during your tenure, 18 before the lawsuits hit, let's say before 1991, when 19 you did receive several allegations of sexual 20 impropriety on the part of priests, if you sought any 21 advice from the nuncio? 22 A. No, sir, I did not contact the nuncio at 23 that time. We just did not have that type of 24 closeness. Certainly, the bishops out in the western 25 part seldom saw the nuncio, and so we didn't feel CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1540 1 that type of closeness to the gentleman. 2 Q. Did you ever contact the cardinal that 3 would be your direct -- is it superior, I suppose, 4 regarding these various issues raised by the priests 5 and sexual molestation of children? 6 A. No, I do not recall contacting anyone of 7 that nature, any cardinal or the nuncio, no. 8 Q. Did you ever talk to Father Smith about 9 Socorro, New Mexico, and his trips to Socorro? 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Did the Archbishop ever 11 talk to Father Smith about Father Smith's trips to 12 Socorro? 13 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 14 A. I think the only -- I'm trying to put it 15 straight in my memory. I believe that it was 16 -- 17 Q. 18 A. -- when she had brought to my 19 attention her concern about her son, that she had 20 mentioned that this misconduct had occurred during a 21 trip to Socorro. I think that was the place. 22 Q. And so -- 23 A. When I confronted Father, then I would 24 have mentioned that, her concern about that trip. 25 Q. Did Father Smith acknowledge the trip to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1541 1 Socorro? 2 A. Yes, he acknowledged the trip. 3 Q. And Socorro is where you grew up; right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you know a from 6 Socorro? 7 A. No, sir, that doesn't ring a bell at all. 8 Q. You've indicated at various points of your 9 deposition that the personnel files were located in 10 your office; correct? 11 A. Do you mean files of the individual 12 priests? 13 Q. I mean of the individual priests. 14 A. Yes, sir, they were located in the offices 15 of the Archbishop. 16 Q. What I would like you to do, if you could, 17 is draw a diagram of your office, including, to the 18 best of your ability, the location of the furniture 19 and where the personnel files were located. 20 MS. KENNEDY: During the time he was 21 there? 22 MR. TINKLER: During the time you were 23 Archbishop. And we can go off the record. 24 (A discussion was held off the record.) 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, you've been CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1542 1 kind enough to make an attempt at drawing your office 2 for us. And at the top -- I've labeled it Exhibit 3 120 -- you have written 1974 through 1985, and I'm 4 assuming the top half here is what your office looked 5 like during that time frame; is that correct? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And this "X" here is what? 8 A. There was -- file cabinets actually were 9 here in the secretary's office. They were not in my 10 personal office. 11 Q. Okay. The "X" is where the personnel 12 files were? 13 A. No, they were actually up here. I just 14 want to say, that's where they were in her office, 15 but I guess I should "X" it where they were. 16 Q. So this "X" is nothing? 17 A. That was just to indicate they were in her 18 office. 19 MS. KENNEDY: It's gone. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) It's gone now, okay. So 21 there's an "X" up here where the secretary's office 22 is, and that's where the personnel files were 23 located. And by that we mean the priest personnel 24 files? 25 A. Yes, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1543 1 Q. From 1974 to 1985; is that correct? 2 A. They may have been there prior to my 3 taking over, but that's where they were when I took 4 over, and they remained there until we moved the 5 offices to our location at this time, the 6 Archdiocesan Center at this time. And I believe it 7 was 1985 that that transfer took place. 8 Q. And then in 1985 to the present day, 9 you've drawn your office -- I mean the secretary's 10 office and your office and then an "X" where the 11 personnel files are located? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Could you just put in your office where 14 your desk was? 15 A. (The witness complied.) 16 Q. So if you needed to go to a personnel 17 file, how long would it have taken you to get to one? 18 A. Oh, it depends if I'm carrying coffee or 19 not. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. No, it just takes a few moments to cross 22 that distance. 23 Q. A few seconds? 24 A. Yeah, probably less than a minute, 25 obviously, if you're not interrupted. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1544 1 Q. That's all I have with respect to Exhibit 2 120. And were those files the only files that 3 contained information regarding the individual 4 priests? 5 A. Those are the priest files of the 6 Archdiocese. Those who are deceased members -- 7 Q. I meant active priests. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Where were the files of deceased priests 10 or, let's say, priests that were no longer in the 11 diocese? 12 A. That would be what we call archives, and 13 that was in the basement with all the rest of the 14 stuff that normally goes into basements. 15 Q. Because you had indicated a couple of days 16 ago that it was possible that part of a particular 17 priest file might have been -- if it was old, might 18 have been put into the archives. Although you 19 couldn't remember a specific one, you said that could 20 have happened; is that right? 21 A. I did mention that. I think I was 22 confusing that with some of our, what I call "program 23 files" that became very bulky, and they would be 24 taken down just to provide room for current events. 25 Q. So would you say that probably none of the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1545 1 active priest files would have been located in the 2 archives? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. You indicated that in the late 1980's, 5 after you had been to the Bishops' Conference and had 6 learned more about priests and sexual abuse of 7 children, that there was a presentation that was made 8 to the priests regarding how to handle allegations of 9 sexual abuse. Do you recall that testimony, or did 10 that happen? 11 A. Yes. I don't know if you were -- I think 12 I said on the occasion of the finalization of the 13 policy that we referred to that occurred in 1990, to 14 present this to them, this whole general group of 15 priests came about so that they might be familiar 16 with it. 17 Q. Who made the presentation? 18 A. I believe there were several involved in 19 it. I know the attorney was part of it. 20 Q. The diocesan attorney? 21 A. The diocesan attorney. The chancellor was 22 part of it. 23 Q. Were you part of it? 24 A. I was there, but I wasn't part of the 25 presentation in that -- or maybe I was; I don't CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1546 1 recall. I had written a cover letter for the 2 booklet. An adviser was there for it. And I think 3 the people who were part of the team that worked on 4 the handbook itself were there for that. 5 Q. Part of that committee that you appointed? 6 A. The committee, yes. 7 Q. Do you recall whose direction it was that 8 this presentation was to be made to the diocesan 9 priests? 10 A. The committee had understood and conferred 11 with me that once this initial effort was completed, 12 that it really was imperative to present it to all 13 the priests of the Archdiocese. 14 Q. And at that presentation, besides the 15 subject of how to handle allegations of sexual abuse, 16 was there a discussion of the priests' rights in 17 matters of sexual allegations? 18 A. I don't believe there was time for that, 19 sir, to be honest with you. That presentation was 20 quite lengthy. 21 Q. At your deposition in January, you 22 indicated that you had once either been or met Father 23 Griego, along with some other priests, on a fishing 24 trip in Mexico. Do you recall that? 25 MS. KENNEDY: Does he recall giving the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1547 1 testimony or the event? 2 Q. First, do you recall giving the testimony? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. Do you recall the event? 5 A. Yes. The event was a group event. They 6 were, apparently, families that were close to two or 7 three priests, and I don't recall the families at 8 all, but they were husband and wife, couples. And 9 they, together with these priests, were going to make 10 a trip down to Mexico. 11 I was going to go later to visit an 12 orphanage that we have there, and they asked if I 13 could drop off and spend a day with them in their 14 holiday. So I told them I would do that, and I 15 routed myself and spent a day with them and then went 16 on to my orphanage. 17 It was a fishing sort of -- well, not only 18 fishing but a regular vacation down in Mexico. 19 Q. Do you recall which priests were on that 20 trip? 21 A. I do recall Father Griego was on that trip 22 and Father Lucian Hendren was on the trip. I don't 23 recall the others right offhand. 24 Q. Archbishop, I'm going to have to ask you a 25 series of questions that I don't particularly want to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1548 1 ask you, but I don't want to offend you. 2 A. Sure. 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. Did you ever use drugs with Griego, Sabine 9 Griego? 10 A. I have never used drugs in my life. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1549 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And that would include 13 Father Sabine Griego? 14 A. "Never" includes anyone. 15 Q. Can you recall the name of any priest that 16 you asked to investigate an allegation of sexual 17 misconduct who has since been named as a perpetrator 18 of sexual misconduct? 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'm going to object to 20 the question. I'm going to allow the Archbishop to 21 answer it, but what that entails essentially is a 22 mathematical calculation of going through the 23 deposition, finding out what he said about who has 24 been -- who he asked to do investigations, and then 25 determining whether or not they've been charged. You CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1550 1 may be in a better position to do that than the 2 Archbishop. 3 MR. TINKLER: I'm not suggesting we've 4 asked him the question as to every individual he's 5 had investigated. 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Right. He doesn't know 7 every priest who's the subject of a lawsuit either. 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Right, but are there 9 those that you're aware of? 10 A. There is only one of whom I'm aware of. 11 And that is Father Sabine Griego. 12 Q. While you were the Archbishop, did you 13 keep files at the Archdiocesan office on the victims? 14 MS. KENNEDY: You mean something 15 separately labeled? 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Yes, separately labeled 17 from a priest file or a lawsuit file? 18 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge, no. 19 Q. And you had indicated that there were two 20 priests during your tenure that voluntarily left -- 21 that you had ordained who voluntarily left the 22 priesthood. Do you recall that? 23 A. That I had ordained. 24 MS. KENNEDY: Does he recall saying that, 25 or does he -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1551 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Saying that? 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Maybe you could give us 3 some hint of where it might be. 4 MR. TINKLER: It was the other day. 5 THE WITNESS: I guess my memory was better 6 in January. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No, no, this was the 8 other day. 9 A. Oh, the other day. I can recall one. I 10 can't recall his name right offhand. It will come. 11 If you give me a moment to think, perhaps I can 12 recall another. 13 Oh, yeah, I can recall a second one, too. 14 I didn't realize it until I was told recently. 15 Q. And who were those priests? 16 A. The first one, the name -- it goes back a 17 few years, perhaps, more than -- about 15 years, I 18 would suppose. I don't recall his name right 19 offhand. 20 The second one, he was a young man who I 21 ordained just, I suppose, in 1991, I believe, and I 22 was told just -- or at least informed the other day 23 that he had left and married and left the 24 priesthood. His name also escapes me. I'd be happy 25 to get it for you if that's possible, but I just CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1552 1 can't recall. 2 Q. Do you recall the circumstances 3 surrounding the second one that you had mentioned -- 4 or the first one, I'm sorry, some years ago? You 5 indicated the second one left and married. Do you 6 recall the circumstances surrounding the first priest 7 having left the priesthood? 8 A. To the best of my recollection, he just 9 felt he wasn't fitting in. He was quite independent, 10 a very bright person, and just finally chose to go 11 his own way. 12 Q. During the period of time that you were 13 dealing with the allegations regarding Father Smith 14 and also Father Lynn, to the extent that those 15 matters were brought before the Personnel Board, who 16 would have been the individual that brought them 17 before the Personnel Board? Would it have been you 18 or someone at your direction? 19 A. That would have been in 1984 or so, 20 thereabouts? 21 Q. Right. 22 A. I would imagine, if I was present for 23 those meetings, it would have been myself. Absent 24 myself, the chairperson, and that would be directly 25 through me. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1553 1 Q. During the period of 1984 and '85, when 2 Father Smith allegations and Father Lynn allegations 3 were arising, was there anyone within the diocese 4 that you were particularly close to and confided in? 5 MS. KENNEDY: About these matters? 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) About these matters? 7 A. Not in particular, sir, no. 8 MR. TINKLER: We're finished. 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Thank you. And we have 10 one more matter of unfinished business. Do we want 11 to -- do you want to contact a judge this afternoon 12 so that I will keep the Archbishop here, so that we 13 can have a hearing this afternoon or first thing 14 tomorrow morning, so we can continue the deposition 15 in the event the judge orders that those questions 16 which I have instructed him not to answer be 17 answered, or do you not want to do that and not have 18 those questions be a matter of the record? 19 MR. BENNETT: Let's go off the record, and 20 we'll talk about it. 21 MR. TINKLER: Let us go off the record and 22 talk. 23 (A discussion was held off the record.) 24 MR. TINKLER: We have determined that 25 we're not going to take the various questions this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1554 1 afternoon that were raised regarding the -- or that 2 Mr. Winterbottom has instructed Archbishop Sanchez 3 not to answer, we're not going to take that before 4 the judge. 5 And Mr. Winterbottom has agreed to accept 6 service of the trial subpoenas for Archbishop 7 Sanchez; is that correct? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's correct. 9 MR. BENNETT: Also, just so you know, 10 Dick, you haven't really looked at these subpoenas, 11 what we did, since we do not have a definite trial 12 date yet, and they don't even have a trial docket yet 13 that's been set by Judge Thompson, the subpoenas set 14 -- there are three different subpoenas, setting 15 three different dates as best we could, but I guess 16 we'll just agree that we will get you a definite 17 date, make it as convenient as possible. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: They are trial 19 subpoenas, not Duces Tecum? 20 MR. TINKLER: That's correct. 21 MR. BENNETT: So we will convey the 22 accurate date to you when it becomes accurate. 23 MR. TINKLER: These are all the same 24 case. These are subpoenas for January. 25 MR. BENNETT: When we get an accurate CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1555 1 date, I'll let you know. 2 MR. YEOMANS: Greg Ball v. The 3 Archdiocese. 4 MR. BENNETT: So is that all right with 5 you, Dick? 6 MS. KENNEDY: The witness will read and 7 sign. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The witness will read 9 and sign. 10 MR. TINKLER: Thank you. 11 (The deposition concluded at 4:15 p.m.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1556 1 John/Jane Does vs. Roman Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, Inc., et al. 2 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 3 If there are any typographical errors to your deposition, 4 indicate them below. 5 PAGE LINE 6 Change to 7 Change to 8 Change to 9 Change to 10 Any other changes to your deposition are to be listed below with a statement as to the reason for such change. 11 PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON FOR CHANGE 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I, ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing pages of my testimony 20 taken on October 6, 1994, as transcribed, and that the same is a true and correct transcript of the 21 testimony given by me in this deposition except for the changes made. 22 23 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 24 25 Date CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1557 1 IN THE SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 3 Nos. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 CV-93-08930 CV-93-11710 7 CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 JOHN/JANE DOES, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 against 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., 22 a New Mexico Corporation, et al. 23 Defendants. 24 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1558 1 I, DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR No. 63, DO HEREBY 2 CERTIFY that on October 6, 1994, the deposition of 3 Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez was taken before me at 4 the request of, and sealed original thereof retained 5 by: 6 Stephen E. Tinkler Merit Bennett 7 Robert J. Reese Attorneys for Plaintiffs 8 425 Sandoval Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 9 I FURTHER CERTIFY that copies of this 10 certificate have been mailed or delivered to the 11 following counsel and parties not represented by 12 counsel appearing at the taking of the deposition: 13 Karen C. Kennedy 14 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 11648 15 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 16 Arthur O. Beach Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese 17 P.O. Drawer AA Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 18 Robert P. Warburton 19 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 271 20 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-0271 21 Richard A. Winterbottom Attorney for Defendant Archbishop 22 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1559 1 Alan K. Konrad Attorney for Defendant Servants 2 of the Paraclete P.O. Box 25687 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 4 Travis R. Collier Attorney for Defendant Lovelace Institutes 5 P.O. Box 1888 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 6 Kenneth L. Harrigan 7 Attorney for Defendant Pecos Benedictine Monastery, Sons of the Holy Family 8 P.O. Box 2168 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 9 Richard D. Yeomans 10 Attorney for Greek Orthodox Archdiocese 4308 Carlisle Boulevard, N.E., Suite 207 11 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that examination of this 13 transcript and signature of the witness was 14 required by the witness and all parties present. 15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that the cost of the original 16 and one copy of the deposition to Stephen E. Tinkler 17 is $746.90. 18 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I did administer the 19 oath to the witness herein prior to the taking of 20 this deposition, that I did thereafter report in 21 stenographic shorthand the questions and answers set 22 forth herein, and the foregoing is a true and 23 accurate transcript of the proceeding had upon the 24 taking of this deposition, to the best of my ability. 25 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither employed by CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1560 1 nor related to any of the parties or attorneys in 2 this case, and that I have no interest whatsoever in 3 the final disposition of this case in any court. 4 5 DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR, RPR Certified Court Reporter No. 63 6 License Expires: 12/31/94 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092

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