Volume 7 – Volume 3 of Part 2 Deposition of Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez October 5, 1994 • Volume 1 – January 12, 1994 • Volume 2 – January 13, 1994 • Volume 3 – January 14, 1994 • Volume 4 – January 15, 1994 • Volume 5 – October 3, 1994 • Volume 6 – October 4, 1994 • Volume 7 – October 5, 1994 • Volume 8 – Cctober 6, 1994 https://www.abqjournal.com/news/arch/3archdep3-20.htm 1194 1 SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 3 Nos. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 CV-93-08930 CV-93-11710 7 CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 JOHN/JANE DOES, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 against 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE 22 ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico Corporation, et al., 23 Defendants. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1195 1 DEPOSITION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 2 VOLUME VII 3 October 5, 1994 4 9:15 a.m. 5 5625 Isleta Boulevard, S.W. 6 Albuquerque, New Mexico 7 PURSUANT TO THE NEW MEXICO RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE this deposition was: 8 TAKEN BY: STEPHEN E. TINKLER 9 ATTORNEY FOR THE PLAINTIFFS 10 REPORTED BY: DEBORAH O'BINE, RPR, NM CCR #63 Cumbre Court Reporting 11 117 N. Guadalupe Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 12 13 A P P E A R A N C E S 14 For the Plaintiffs: 15 STEPHEN E. TINKLER MERIT BENNETT 16 Attorneys at Law 425 Sandoval Street 17 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 18 REESE, MATHEY & SCHOFIELD P.O. Box 1060 19 Green River, Wyoming 82935 BY: ROBERT J. REESE, ESQ. 20 21 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 22 SIMONS, CUDDY & FRIEDMAN P.O. Box 11648 23 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 BY: KAREN C. KENNEDY, ESQ. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1196 1 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 2 KELEHER & McLEOD, P.A. P.O. Drawer AA 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 BY: ARTHUR O. BEACH, ESQ. 4 EAVES, BARDACKE & BAUGH, P.A. 5 P.O. Box 35670 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87176-5670 6 BY: PETER S. KIERST, ESQ. 7 For the Defendant Archbishop: 8 STOUT & WINTERBOTTOM 9 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 10 BY: RICHARD A. WINTERBOTTOM, ESQ. 11 For the Defendant Servants: 12 MILLER, STRATVERT, TORGERSON & SCHLENKER, P.A. 13 P.O. Box 25687 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 14 BY: ALAN K. KONRAD, ESQ. 15 For the Defendant Lovelace Institutes: 16 RODEY, DICKASON, SLOAN, AKIN & ROBB, P.A. 17 P.O. Box 1888 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 18 BY: TRAVIS R. COLLIER, ESQ. 19 For the Defendants Pecos Benedictine Monastery, Sons 20 of the Holy Family: 21 MODRALL, SPERLING, ROEHL, HARRIS & SISK, P.A. P.O. Box 2168 22 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-2168 BY: KENNETH L. HARRIGAN, ESQ. 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1197 1 For the Defendant Greek Orthodox Archdiocese: 2 GUEBERT & YEOMANS, P.C. 4308 Carlisle Boulevard, N.E., Suite 207 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 BY: RICHARD D. YEOMANS, ESQ. 4 5 Also Present: 6 JERRY GOFFE, Videographer ROY MATTHEWS, Videographer 7 MICHELE MASIOWSKI, ESQ. 8 9 I N D E X 10 PAGE 11 EXAMINATION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 12 By Mr. Tinkler 1202 13 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 1361 14 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 1362 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1198 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1199 1 EXHIBIT FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1200 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1201 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1202 1 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, 2 after having been previously sworn under oath, was 3 questioned and testified further as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. TINKLER: 6 Q. Archbishop Sanchez, yesterday when we 7 broke for the day, we had been talking about Father 8 Ed Donelan, and I have a few more questions about 9 that. I think you've read, had a chance to read 10 Exhibit 52; is that correct? 11 A. Yes, I just finished now, um-hm. 12 Q. Do you recall receiving that letter from 13 back in the summer of 1976? 14 A. I have received a couple of letters, and I 15 just don't recall a specific letter; so I don't 16 recall it specifically, nor the name, until I read it 17 a while ago. 18 Q. Did it refresh your memory when you read 19 it? 20 A. It brought back concerns of the people 21 there. 22 Q. The name though, did that ring 23 a bell? 24 A. No, it didn't. 25 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to, I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1203 1 think it's page 3 of the letter, the last paragraph, 2 where it says "Now is the hard part." 3 A. All right. 4 Q. And you read that this morning? 5 A. Yes. You just gave it to me. 6 Q. Do you now recall that you were notified 7 in June of 1976 that at least this particular family 8 suspected that Father Ed was molesting the boys? 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. The 10 exhibit, No. 52, speaks for itself, and there is no 11 mention of the word "molestation" or "molesting" the 12 boys in here. If you want to read the paragraph, it 13 speaks for itself. And you can ask the Archbishop if 14 he read that, then that's one thing. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) The question, if you've 16 listened to it was -- 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Trick question. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) -- did you know in June 19 of 1976, after receiving this letter, that at least 20 the believed he was molesting the boys? 21 That's the question. I didn't ask you what the 22 letter said. 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I object to that. It 24 misstates what the letter says. 25 MR. TINKLER: How do you know what he CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1204 1 thought in 1976, Dick? 2 Q. After you read that? 3 MS. KENNEDY: After he read it this 4 morning or back in '76? 5 MR. TINKLER: '76. 6 MS. KENNEDY: Then I have an objection. 7 It calls for speculation. He has already testified 8 he doesn't recall reading the specific letter. 9 THE WITNESS: The concern that the lady 10 expresses in the letter was that there may have been 11 something morally wrong. She doesn't describe the 12 morally wrong term. 13 She even goes so far as to say that "we 14 felt" that the boys, who had been commenting because 15 they used the word, Father is a "queer" -- "We felt 16 that they were just mouthing off, and so we paid very 17 little attention to them, but lately, now after 18 talking to boys who were formerly there," and I don't 19 know who they would have been, "or other people, such 20 as Health and Social Services," then "I am forced" -- 21 in fact she says, "I am forced to believe that it is 22 true." 23 Referring to him as, what's the word they 24 used again, a "queer" was not making any allegations 25 of sexual misconduct. I'm not certain what that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1205 1 included. 2 Q. Did you ask her? 3 A. I don't recall speaking with her or 4 discussing it in any type of extent at all. I 5 certainly -- I'm sure I acknowledged receipt of the 6 letter, because that was my practice, but I do not 7 recall discussing it. 8 Q. So you don't recall interrogating anybody 9 regarding the sexual habits of Father Ed after you 10 received this letter? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. And even if the word "queer" had nothing 13 to do with molestation of young boys, what did that 14 mean to you? What does "queer" mean to you? It's 15 something that is in accord with the conduct of 16 priests? 17 MS. KENNEDY: Object. Let me just put an 18 objection on the record. What does that mean to him 19 now in 1994, or what did it mean to him then in 20 1976? 21 MR. TINKLER: Then, '76. 22 THE WITNESS: I think in 1976, to the best 23 of my recollection, I would have interpreted the word 24 "queer" to mean certainly different from others, 25 maybe showing more attention to men than to women. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1206 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In a sexual way? 2 A. I'm not certain what you interpret by 3 sexual. 4 Q. Whatever you interpret by sexual. 5 A. If a person prefers to spend more time 6 with one sex than the other, they can be labeled. It 7 doesn't have to be of a sexual nature. 8 Q. So is it your belief that back in 1976, 9 you really had no concern about Father Ed Donelan's 10 sexual habits? 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1207 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Now, in 1976, did you 16 have any concern at the time of the closing of the 17 Boys' Ranch about Father Ed Donelan's sexual habits? 18 A. The word "any," of course, has it to 19 include any wonder, and some wonder had been placed 20 in my mind because of a letter such as this from this 21 lady. 22 I had always seen Father Ed as a very 23 strong person, he's very tall, and because of the 24 size of the man, he comes across as a very manly 25 person. He is brusk in nature and in voice, tends to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1208 1 be more rugged than to be soft in that way. So I 2 certainly had no reason to see him as a -- I forget 3 the word -- 4 Q. "Queer." 5 A. -- "queer," the way the boy used that, 6 but, nonetheless, the lady raised this issue, and so 7 there was wonder in my own mind about it. 8 Q. And what did you do with that wonder in 9 your own mind? 10 A. I had spoken with him when we met together 11 earlier in April or March regarding the closure of 12 the ranch and had addressed these concerns to him. 13 Q. So you had already, before you received 14 this letter, had some concerns about his sexual 15 habits, or at least allegations concerning the sexual 16 habits? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And what did he say when you confronted 19 him in March? 20 A. He denied that. 21 Q. And was that good enough for you? 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to "good 23 enough." 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did that satisfy your 25 concern? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1209 1 A. Apparently, his explanation with his 2 denial was adequate, sir. 3 Q. And you thought that there was no need for 4 further investigation? 5 A. I thought there was no need for further 6 investigation in view of the fact that I had just 7 told him that his position as director had ended, I 8 had withdrawn permission for him to serve as director 9 of a ranch operated by the Health and Social Services 10 of the State of New Mexico. 11 Q. So you didn't think that there was any 12 further need for investigation since he wasn't going 13 to be at the ranch; is that what you're saying? 14 A. I myself am not an investigator. I think 15 the state, being the prime operator of the ranch, 16 also had that responsibility, more so than I. He had 17 a board of directors to whom he had to answer for its 18 operation, as well. 19 I was a superior but had little or nothing 20 to do with him and the operation of the ranch. That 21 was supposed to have been operated and run under the 22 authority of the State of New Mexico. 23 Q. But at the time that you met with Father 24 Ed in March, you had already decided to close the 25 school by removing him from that position; isn't that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1210 1 correct? 2 A. I met with him to inform him that that 3 decision was to close, exactly. 4 Q. So you did have some power over his 5 actions with respect to the school, didn't you? 6 A. My -- not with respect to the school. 7 With respect to him being free to serve as director. 8 I couldn't control what time he called lunch or what 9 time he called dinner. I controlled whether he was 10 going to be there as director. 11 Q. Right, whether he would be there at all? 12 A. Period. 13 Q. And you had decided as of March 1976 that 14 he was not going to be there as director of that 15 school in the future; isn't that correct? 16 A. And so informed him. 17 Q. And so you had no further concern about 18 any sexual allegations regarding Father Ed; is that 19 correct? 20 A. In reference to the ranch -- you called 21 them "sexual allegations." I would call them 22 concerns of people, together with multiple concerns 23 that they had brought before me. I would not want 24 you to characterize that the only concern that people 25 had was of a sexual nature, because that would not be CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1211 1 the truth. 2 Q. Well, no, there were many other problems 3 at the ranch; isn't that correct? 4 A. That is what I would like you to also 5 include in your statements. 6 Q. Well, I'm right now trying to focus on 7 whether or not you felt there was any need for 8 investigation of Ed Donelan's sexual habits after you 9 closed the school. 10 A. No, I did not. I did not investigate. 11 Q. Did you plan to place him in parish work? 12 A. I had no plan. 13 Q. And I think yesterday you did say that you 14 finally, or you ultimately did place him in parish 15 work; is that correct? 16 A. About ten months later. 17 Q. Did you do an investigation into his 18 sexual habits during those ten months? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Did you interview any of the people that 21 made the allegations from the Boys' Ranch during 22 those ten months? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. When you placed him into the parish, I 25 think it was in February of '77, was that with full CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1212 1 faculties? 2 A. He was placed there in a restricted 3 assignment. It was a pro tem assignment, limited to 4 the parish of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Santa Fe, 5 under the pastorship of Father Leo Lucero, who was 6 one of the strongest pastors that I have in the 7 Archdiocese, and he was directed to guide him in his 8 ministry there and to observe his ministry, 9 especially regarding the, what appeared to be anger 10 within himself. 11 Q. Did you advise Father Lucero that there 12 had also been allegations regarding Father Donelan's 13 sexual habits? 14 A. I do not recall mentioning anything of 15 that nature. I don't recall what all I mentioned to 16 Father Leo Lucero. 17 Q. Are you saying that you may have mentioned 18 that to him; you just don't recall? 19 A. I may have. I just don't recall. 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1213 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. When you started to get all the complaints 12 about the Boys' Ranch in 1976, did you go back and 13 look at Ed Donelan's file to see what kind of history 14 he had? 15 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 16 answered. 17 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And you've also had an 19 opportunity this morning to read Exhibit, I believe, 20 53; is that correct? 21 MS. KENNEDY: Could we identify it? 22 MR. TINKLER: It's a letter -- 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's a letter from Paul 24 Nichols, dated June 10, 1976. 25 MR. KIERST: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1214 1 you. Who's it from? 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Paul Nichols. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 4 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You have reviewed that? 5 Do you recall receiving that letter? 6 A. No, sir, I don't recall receiving it. 7 Q. Do you recall the -- I mean, without 8 recalling the letter itself, do you recall receiving 9 any correspondence or having any conversations about 10 that subject matter? 11 A. Not with -- 12 Q. I'm talking about the boy's death. 13 A. I just don't recall that, sir. In our 14 testimony yesterday, as I indicated, the one name 15 that clicked in my mind was the name of "Pierre." I 16 can't recall this other gentleman, nor did I recall 17 the other lady whose letter we reviewed just a moment 18 ago. 19 Q. After you read Exhibit 53 today, did that 20 refresh your memory as to the fact that a boy had 21 died when he ran away from the Boys' Ranch earlier 22 that year? 23 A. I think you mentioned that yesterday. I 24 think it brought back that incident. I hadn't 25 recalled it, and it just did not impress me that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1215 1 deeply, apparently, or it didn't stay in my memory, 2 but yesterday you mentioned it, and this letter 3 mentioned it again. 4 Q. I understand that. What I'm asking is if 5 today, after having this mentioned to you again, do 6 you now remember the fact that that occurred in 1976, 7 early 1976? 8 A. I don't know whether my memory is because 9 of 1976 or because of your mentioning it yesterday. 10 Yesterday I just could not recall that event. So I 11 cannot answer that I can recall it from 1976 because 12 it was brought to my attention yesterday. 13 Q. I know, I understand that. What I'm 14 saying is today, do you now have a memory of it, or 15 is it only the fact that it's been mentioned? 16 A. No, I think honestly I would have to say I 17 don't have a memory of 1976 of, at this time, going 18 back. The fact that a boy died at some time, in some 19 circumstance, was brought to my attention yesterday 20 and again this morning, but I can't say that that 21 memory goes back to 1976. 22 Q. The letter, 53, Exhibit 53, even though 23 you don't recall actually receiving it, you don't 24 deny that it was received by you, do you -- I mean, 25 it was sent to you? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1216 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. After Father Donelan was sent to another 3 diocese, to another parish in '77, do you recall what 4 happened with Father Donelan thereafter? 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: For the rest of -- to 6 the present? 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, next. 8 A. I believe he served with Father Leo Lucero 9 at Our Lady of Guadalupe parish in Santa Fe for a 10 number of months; I don't recall what number. I 11 believe Father Lucero gave a positive evaluation of 12 him as far as his time with him was concerned. 13 I don't recall any complaints either from 14 the pastor or from parishioners regarding his style 15 of ministry. And I know that at one time, it may 16 have been at this point, that we then assigned him to 17 St. Joseph's parish in Mosquero and in Roy. 18 Q. Do you recall receiving any complaints 19 about his ministry there? 20 A. Yes. I recall receiving a letter from one 21 gentleman I had known concerning his apparent anger, 22 his bruskness. He just seemed to be just not refined 23 in his manners with them, and several would feel 24 offended. 25 On the other hand, there were people I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1217 1 would speak to or I would run into whom I knew who 2 had very fine things to say about him. 3 Q. Did you only receive one complaint? 4 A. I can't recall if it was just one. There 5 may have been more than one. 6 Q. Were the complaints serious enough that 7 you did any type of investigation? 8 A. No. These were general complaints about a 9 style of ministry, about handling this ceremony, a 10 funeral or a wedding, or whatever it may have been. 11 Q. He was transferred in '79 to Our Lady of 12 Guadalupe Church in Taos. 13 A. Um-hm. 14 Q. Do you recall the circumstances 15 surrounding that transfer? 16 A. Just that he had been in the Roy and 17 Mosquero area apparently for about a year, year and a 18 half, and apparently we needed another person to 19 serve in Taos, and we transferred him to Taos. 20 Q. And you don't recall there being any 21 reason for that other than just need? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. You had indicated yesterday that when you 24 closed the ranch, that there had been -- your 25 relationship with Father Donelan was not real smooth CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1218 1 at that point in time? 2 A. Yes, there were feelings there, um-hm. 3 Q. Did that change after that? 4 A. As far as I was concerned, I was receiving 5 him as I would receive another priest as far as my 6 heart was concerned. I was ready to reach out to him 7 and certainly embrace him as a brother. 8 I have reason to believe that he harbored 9 some ill feelings toward me because of the action 10 that I had taken and always remained a bit distant 11 from me that way. So we did not spend any time 12 together outside of essential conversations or 13 meetings. 14 Q. And you had indicated yesterday that at 15 the time that the closure occurred that, prior to 16 that, you really had no contact with him except on 17 one occasion; is that right? 18 A. That's right, very seldom. 19 Q. So other than that period of time when you 20 were closing the school, is it fair to say that 21 throughout your tenure, you really had no significant 22 contacts with Father Donelan, other than that one 23 period of time? 24 A. That's right, other than in my capacity as 25 Archbishop. If he is pastor of a parish or whenever CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1219 1 he's stationed, and I visit the parish, you have 2 contact with him, but just in a professional 3 capacity. 4 Q. A couple, I think it was two days ago, you 5 indicated that your first recollection of allegations 6 regarding a priest possibly abusing a boy was with 7 Father Sigler in 1981. Do you acknowledge now that 8 you had at least, prior to 1981, received letters and 9 allegations regarding Father Ed Donelan and the boys 10 and his treatment of the boys at the Boys' Ranch in 11 1976? 12 A. No, sir, there was a difference. What 13 took place in '81 with Father Jason Sigler was 14 totally different from the concerns that were written 15 and extended to me in 1976, as you mentioned there, 16 with Father Ed Donelan. 17 Q. In that you had specific victims? 18 A. It was a specific allegation, not a 19 general concern. 20 Q. When you received the general concern in 21 1976, did you direct Sabine Griego or any other one 22 under your supervision to interview any of the boys 23 and see if they had been molested? 24 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 25 answered. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1220 1 THE WITNESS: I did not direct anyone 2 other than Father Griego to go up and to interview 3 the -- to see what was taking place at the ranch 4 because of the general concern that had been brought 5 to my attention, not a specific concern. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1221 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1222 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You did believe that 9 Father Ed Donelan was your responsibility as a 10 priest, didn't you? 11 A. As a priest. And for this reason I felt 12 that, as a priest, I would withdraw him from the 13 directorship because there seemed to be problems 14 about the operation of the ranch. 15 Q. And you said that he didn't go back into 16 another parish, I think, for another ten months. Was 17 the reason for the delay in placing him in another 18 parish solely because of his administrative problems 19 at the Farley Boys' Ranch, or did the sexual 20 allegations have anything to do with that decision? 21 A. I don't recall the reasons why all of 22 that. I think there was probably many different 23 circumstances that were part of that equation, but I 24 do not recall any specific concern about the sexual 25 allegations. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1223 1 Q. Can you tell me what Bethany House was? 2 A. Bethany House is a home actually in the 3 South Valley of Albuquerque for the purpose of prayer 4 for any priest who would want to go there. Either 5 from the Archdiocese or even priests outside of the 6 Archdiocese could come and spend a day, a week, a 7 month, or perhaps even a year there if that was their 8 desire and they had the proper permissions. 9 Q. Was Bethany House, is that -- it was only 10 priests that stayed there; is that correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Do you recall assigning Father Ed to 13 Bethany House? 14 A. Yes, I believe I assigned him to be in 15 residence because I did not have an assignment for 16 him, and I had done that to several priests in 17 between assignments for lack of a place to go. That 18 provided a convenient place and a spiritual place for 19 them to spend quiet time in prayer and reflection. 20 Q. Between the time of the closing of the 21 Boys' Ranch and the time that you left the diocese, 22 did you receive any complaints other than the one 23 you've mentioned from one of the parishioners in -- 24 A. Excuse me. Between the time of the 25 closing of the ranch and my leaving the diocese? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1224 1 Q. Right. 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We've gone through 3 complaints in June and April. 4 MR. TINKLER: I'm talking about after that 5 period of time. After that period of time. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: They closed the ranch 8 in March. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm talking about after 10 you had assigned him to a parish. 11 A. Between the time of 1976 and now? 12 Q. Right. 13 A. In other words -- no, sir, I never had 14 another -- what type of complaint, did you say? 15 Q. Any type of complaint about Father 16 Donelan's ministry. 17 MS. KENNEDY: He already talked about Roy 18 and Mosquero. 19 MR. TINKLER: And I said except for that 20 one. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. His personality, 22 as I mentioned, is very overpowering. He is not 23 refined or prudent with words and statements, and he 24 had a way of offending people with remarks this way 25 or that, that we wish he didn't have, especially in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1225 1 the interpersonal relationships that we have to have 2 as priests, but that was his personality, and we 3 would hope that he could refine himself more. 4 Many people loved him as he was. He had a 5 heart that always concerned himself with people, and 6 they did respect him and love him, but many others 7 were hurt with his bruskness and his own personality 8 that way. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Was that a reason for 10 you sending him to Bethany House as opposed to just a 11 parish where he had parishioners? 12 A. I can't recall any specific reason for 13 sending him to Bethany House other than the fact that 14 a friend of his -- I believe he was a friend, I 15 couldn't swear to that -- but the director of the 16 house was a very spiritual man, and he certainly 17 would help him in that regard. And Father Ed was a 18 man of prayer, and I thought that would help, too. 19 But Bethany, his assignment there was probably just a 20 period of someplace to put his bags until he would 21 receive an assignment. 22 Q. What does it mean when you assign someone 23 pro tem? 24 A. "Pro tem" means it's not a full canonical 25 assignment as pastor, but they're only in a temporary CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1226 1 capacity, and he can expect to be transferred from 2 there at my own desire, at my own order. 3 Q. During the time that you -- let me ask you 4 this. Did you have a shortage of priests within your 5 diocese during the first half of the 1980's? 6 A. Again, that term "shortage of priests" is 7 a relative term. It depends on how you understand 8 it. It could be said that we never have enough, and 9 it can be said that we always have too many. I think 10 that depends on if you have the best priests 11 possible, you could probably do with fewer, and if 12 some are not functioning real well, you need more. 13 It's a relative term. 14 I think that in the 1980's, did you say? 15 Q. Yes, sir, the first half of the '80's. 16 A. The first half of the 1980's, no, I do not 17 recall any specific severe shortage of priests for 18 assignment to cover the different parishes that we 19 had to cover. 20 Some parishes require greater talents 21 because of their size, their complexity, the very 22 fact that they may have a school attached to them or 23 other specific ministries. And on the other hand, 24 another parish may be quite simple, it's small in 25 numbers, in parishioners. And so the administration CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1227 1 of that parish, the spiritual care of that parish is 2 less demanding. 3 And so you make decisions, who goes where, 4 depending on the parish and depending on the 5 individual. So it's a relative -- you have to look 6 at each case. 7 Q. In looking at Father Ed Donelan's file, 8 it's a very big file, but it doesn't happen to have 9 the basic personal data that some of the files have 10 such as birth date, social security number, those 11 kinds of things. 12 A. Um-hm. 13 Q. It referred to his birthday as being 14 Ascension Thursday which is -- what is Ascension 15 Thursday? 16 A. It's a variable date. 17 Q. That's what I thought. 18 A. It's 40 days after Easter. And so Easter, 19 which varies from year to year, is variable, and so 20 you don't have a date. That's a nice spiritual way 21 of expressing it but -- 22 Q. But that doesn't give you a firm date? 23 A. No, it doesn't. 24 Q. Okay. When did you first meet Clive Lynn? 25 A. May I take a second just to shift years? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1228 1 Q. Sure. 2 MR. BEACH: Mr. Tinkler, he was born on 3 April 9, 1924, and I have it written down, so it must 4 be in the file someplace. 5 MR. TINKLER: Thanks. 6 MR. BEACH: In Pittsfield, Massachusetts, 7 I think. 8 THE WITNESS: All right. The question was 9 when I first met Clive Lynn. To the best of my 10 recollection, I think I met him, as far as speaking 11 to him, perhaps in the latter half of 1974 or a 12 little beyond that. 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) After you were 14 Archbishop? 15 A. After I was Archbishop, right. 16 Q. Had you heard his name before you became 17 Archbishop? 18 A. Yes, I had heard his name mentioned 19 before. 20 Q. In fact, had you heard his name a lot or 21 frequently mentioned before? 22 A. I don't know how much, but his name had 23 come up publicly, I guess it was on the news because 24 of, I guess, a contentious issue with Archbishop 25 Davis. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1229 1 Q. Do you recall that Archbishop Davis took 2 his faculties away? 3 A. I wasn't certain what action he had taken, 4 but I knew he was without an assignment. 5 Q. And at the time that you were -- you 6 became the Archbishop, do you recall that there was 7 still an ongoing dispute between the then departing 8 Archbishop Davis and Father Lynn? 9 A. No, I was not aware of any ongoing 10 dispute. The Archbishop never mentioned anything to 11 me about that. 12 Q. Do you recall Father Lynn's, the fact that 13 Father Lynn was still without assignment when you 14 became the Archbishop? 15 A. Yes, sir, I recall that. 16 Q. And do you recall how he got an 17 assignment; in other words, how you gave him an 18 assignment? 19 A. To the best of my recollection, that 20 assignment, as all others, would have been the result 21 of discussion and recommendation and approval with 22 our Personnel Board. 23 Q. Do you recall the nature of the dispute 24 between Father Lynn and Archbishop Davis? 25 A. No, sir, I don't recall the nature of it. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1230 1 I just knew that there was. 2 Q. Do you recall that it was in the 3 newspapers? 4 A. Yes. 5 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 6 answered. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) With respect to Father 8 Lynn, have you ever reviewed his file? 9 A. No, sir, I did not and have not. 10 Q. At any point in time? 11 A. No, sir. 12 (Exhibit 54 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, I'm handing 15 you what's marked as Exhibit 54 and ask you to review 16 that document. I really just want to know if you've 17 ever seen it before. 18 MS. KENNEDY: Would you identify it? 19 MR. TINKLER: It is a demand for 20 arbitration by an attorney on behalf of Father Lynn, 21 dated May 8, 1974. 22 THE WITNESS: (Witness referred to 23 document.) 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you completed 25 reading that document? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1231 1 A. Yes, sir, I've scanned it. 2 Q. Do you recall ever seeing it before? 3 A. No, sir, I do not. 4 Q. Does it refresh your memory at all as to 5 the nature of the dispute between Father Lynn and 6 Archbishop Davis? 7 A. It clarifies for me the nature. 8 Q. Do you remember it a little bit now? 9 A. I just knew there was a dispute. I just 10 did not have any idea what the dispute was about, but 11 now it clarifies it very well. 12 Q. Does it refresh your memory that you 13 actually -- it came about shortly before your being 14 appointed the Archbishop? 15 A. The date of this letter is indicative of 16 that, yes. 17 Q. Do you now recall that you might have been 18 involved in the resolution of this dispute? 19 A. No, sir, I was not. 20 (Exhibit 55 was marked for 21 identification.) 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, I'm handing 23 you what is marked as Exhibit 55. 24 Have you reviewed Exhibit 55? 25 A. Yes, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1232 1 Q. Do you recall the fact that you did 2 participate in the appointment of two priests to sit 3 on the board determining the dispute or making a 4 decision as to the dispute? 5 A. I don't recall that, but it's inaccurate. 6 The two priests, if I would have appointed two 7 priests for any type of a hearing, they wouldn't have 8 been members of the -- they wouldn't have been 9 appointed to sit on the Personnel Board. They were 10 meeting with two members from the Personnel Board, 11 with two other priests, in a sense, to be able to 12 speak on behalf of Father Lynn, but I don't recall 13 that. 14 Q. You don't recall that happening? 15 A. I just don't recall those events, no. 16 Q. As of the date of that letter, I think 17 it's July 15, 1974, were you the Archbishop? 18 A. July 25, 1974. 19 Q. So you weren't quite -- what's the date? 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The date is July 15. 21 THE WITNESS: That's July 15? 22 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 23 THE WITNESS: No, I was not -- I had been 24 named, but I had not been ordained. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Were you, nevertheless, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1233 1 kind of in transition, handling some of the duties? 2 A. Nope. 3 Q. No? 4 A. No. I had a parish to run. 5 Q. So you didn't actually have any duties as 6 Archbishop until July 25; is that right? 7 A. Until after July, right, exactly. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The record may reflect 9 that Deposition Exhibit 55 is signed by an attorney, 10 Mary Walters, written to Robert Singer, and the 11 carbon copy went To The Very Reverend S.A. Salas. 12 Archbishop Sanchez was not copied on the letter. 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) But the letter also 14 refers to you as having agreed to appoint two 15 priests, doesn't it? It says that? 16 A. Yes. Apparently, they must have requested 17 that permission. 18 Q. Do you know Mary Walters? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you know her then? 21 A. I don't recall her then. I recall her in 22 more recent years. I had asked her to serve as a 23 member of the board of our seminary in Santa Fe, our 24 college level seminary. And Judge Walters had just 25 retired from the Supreme Court, and so I asked her if CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1234 1 she would like to use some of her retirement time as 2 a member of our board, and she graciously accepted. 3 Q. And you don't recall whether you actually 4 knew her at the time of this letter, do you? 5 A. I just don't recall her, no. It's 20 6 years ago. 7 Q. Do you recall that The Very Reverend 8 Father Salas was head of the Personnel Board? 9 A. He must have been. I recall he was head 10 of the board at some period, and that must have been 11 at that time. 12 Q. Do you recall earlier you had testified 13 that while you were on the Personnel Board, it had 14 disbanded? 15 A. It had disbanded, exactly. 16 Q. Does this refresh your memory that it had 17 reformed by the time you became Archbishop? 18 A. Apparently, it had. 19 (Exhibit 56 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'll hand you what's 22 marked as Exhibit 56 and ask you to review that 23 document. 24 MS. KENNEDY: Could you identify it for 25 the record? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1235 1 MR. TINKLER: It's a letter from Robert 2 Singer to Mary Walters, dated August 7, 1974. 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's not quite 4 correct. 5 MR. TINKLER: Is that the wrong date? 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's a letter to Father 7 Salas. 8 MR. TINKLER: Oh, Father Salas, I'm sorry. 9 MS. KENNEDY: "Monsignor." 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: "Monsignor Salas," Mary 11 Walters' copy to Monsignor Salas. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you reviewed that 13 letter? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Do you remember seeing the letter before? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Do you remember the subject matter 18 described in the letter? 19 A. It's the same as the previous letter. I 20 don't recall that, all that transpired at that time 21 regarding the request. What this is doing now is 22 simply putting a new situation before me, but I don't 23 recall it. We must have -- 24 Q. It does not refresh your memory? 25 A. It does not refresh my memory, no. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1236 1 (Exhibit 57 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's been 4 marked as Exhibit 57. It's a letter from Clive Lynn 5 to you dated August 3, 1974. 6 A. (Witness referred to document.) 7 Q. Have you reviewed that exhibit? 8 A. Yes, sir, I have. 9 Q. Do you recall receiving that letter? 10 A. No, I don't recall receiving it 11 specifically. 12 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of the 13 letter? 14 A. Not really the subject matter of this 15 letter, just in general that he wanted to meet with 16 me at some time, I recall back at that time that 17 effort was being made, and I don't recall how soon 18 after I was ordained that it was made. 19 Q. Do you know what -- did you know what he 20 was referring to in the letter when he talks about 21 not having received a stipend for six months? 22 A. Apparently, no type of financial 23 compensation was being extended to him during the 24 period of his -- once he had been suspended from 25 faculties, the Archbishop was not providing any type CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1237 1 of financial help. 2 Q. Does this letter refresh your memory as to 3 the fact that the dispute had not been resolved as of 4 at least the date of the letter, August 3, 1974? 5 A. I think the letter speaks for itself. I 6 would assume that, but it doesn't address that 7 issue. It may very well have been resolved, but he 8 didn't have an assignment; so I don't know exactly 9 what followed. 10 Q. The previous exhibit, I believe, Exhibit 11 56, indicated he was still wanting a hearing? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Isn't that correct? 14 A. But that was about three weeks prior. 15 Q. It's actually August 7. 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's actually after. 17 He still hadn't had his hearing. 18 THE WITNESS: After the 26th of July. 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Exhibit No. 55 was the 20 15th of July. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) As of August 7, he still 22 had not had his hearing, at least according to this 23 document; is that right? 24 A. Um-hm, that's right. 25 Q. Do you remember what transpired with CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1238 1 respect to resolution, next assignment of Father Lynn 2 after August 7, 1974? 3 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 4 answered. 5 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I just don't recall 6 that. 7 (Exhibit 58 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 10 as Exhibit 58, which is a letter from you to Clive 11 Lynn, dated October 16, 1974. Archbishop, I'll 12 represent to you that this is the next document in 13 Clive Lynn's file after the August 7th letter. 14 A. (Witness referred to document.) 15 Q. Have you reviewed that exhibit? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to his 18 next assignment? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Does it refresh your memory at all as to 21 the circumstances surrounding the next assignment? 22 A. No, I do not recall what procedures we 23 went through. Looking at the people who received 24 copies of the letter, it would have been an 25 assignment, like all others discussed before the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1239 1 Personnel Board and finalized. 2 It's a restricted assignment, 3 administrator not pastor, pro tem not full 4 assignment. 5 Q. What does that restriction entail by 6 making him an administrator as opposed to a pastor? 7 A. It has canonical significance. An 8 administrator, as opposed to a pastor, does not have 9 a right to remain in that parish. He is there simply 10 to administrate it at the will of the Archbishop. 11 The pro tem termination is indicative of 12 the fact that his withdrawal from the parish could 13 again occur at any time, that there's no guarantee. 14 Normally, when a pastor is assigned to a 15 parish, there is a significant amount of years 16 attached to that assignment. A person at that time 17 would have been given a three-year assignment in a 18 rural parish, a six-year assignment in a city parish. 19 Q. And so the primary difference is the lack 20 of permanency or fixed time attached to it? 21 A. And power. 22 Q. And power? 23 A. Yes. Administrator is different from that 24 of pastor. 25 Q. Does an administrator have full faculties? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1240 1 A. He has faculties designated by the bishop 2 under that term, yes. He may administer the parish. 3 Q. Given the fact that there was a dispute, 4 which is the subject matter of the press and 5 attorneys becoming involved where Father Lynn was 6 making claims against the Archdiocese, wouldn't it 7 have been your practice when something like that was 8 resolved to put something in the priest's file to 9 indicate how it was resolved? 10 A. To this day I'm not certain whether that 11 issue was resolved or how it was resolved. I just 12 don't recall that, not even any details about it. 13 Q. I understand you don't recall it, but I'm 14 just asking, was it your practice back then -- let's 15 put it this way. Would you say a dispute between a 16 priest and the Archdiocese which has resulted in at 17 least threatened litigation -- 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. There's no 19 -- 20 Q. (MR. TINKLER) -- threatened arbitration 21 would be the type of event in a priest's life that 22 would require some filing and some placement of the 23 resolution in his file? 24 A. If, in fact, that had happened. 25 Q. You do agree that at the time you became CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1241 1 the Archbishop, Father Lynn had no faculties? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And on October the 16th, you granted him 4 faculties? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. And you just don't know why? 7 A. I granted him faculties because of an 8 assignment as administrative pro tem to St. Anthony's 9 in Fort Sumner. 10 Q. Do you recall, did you have any 11 discussions with Father Lynn between the August 3, 12 1974, letter and October 16, 1974, regarding his 13 dispute with Archbishop Davis? 14 A. I do not recall that. 15 Q. Did you have any conversations with Clive 16 Lynn during that same time frame regarding his 17 assignment, his future assignment? 18 A. I don't recall any kind of conversation. 19 Q. If, in fact, the Personnel Board had made 20 recommendations regarding the resolution of that 21 dispute, would you have been -- in the normal course 22 of events, would you have been present? 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Calls for 24 speculation on an event that happened 20 years ago, 25 about which the Archbishop testified he has no CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1242 1 independent recollection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall being present 3 for any particular personnel board. And I might add, 4 it was not my practice to be present at all personnel 5 boards when I was first ordained. I tried to make 6 that a practice later in my own tenure. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) So what you're saying 8 is, it's possible they did meet and you weren't even 9 there? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Do you have any recollection of what 12 transpired during the temporary or the pro tem 13 assignment of Father Lynn at Fort Sumner? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: What transpired with 15 whom? 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) During that. With him 17 and his ministry there. 18 A. The parishioners, um-hm. I can recall one 19 pastoral visit to the parish when he was pastor at 20 Fort Sumner. There seemed to be positive excitement 21 by the parishioners. 22 I can recall some kind of display of 23 paintings. Apparently, someone either from the 24 parish or someone close to the parish, had painted a 25 number of churches along the Rio Pecos and had sort CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1243 1 of captured either the church or the ruins of a 2 church in a very fine collection of paintings, and 3 they had displayed that in the church on the occasion 4 of my visit. And there seemed to be, as I said, a 5 lot of positive excitement about that. 6 I do not recall at this moment any type of 7 negative comment from anyone during that visit. I 8 just have a positive recollection of it. 9 Q. Now, Fort Sumner is also where Father 10 Sigler had been; isn't that correct? 11 A. Yes, I believe he had been there just 12 prior to his leaving the Archdiocese. 13 Q. When he left to visit his family in 14 Michigan? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Was it Father Sigler that you were 17 replacing or that you were putting Father Lynn in 18 place of, or do you recall? 19 A. I don't recall that. Father Sigler, if 20 I'm not mistaken, left very shortly after I was 21 ordained, within two weeks or so. So it must have 22 been in August. This assignment was in October. I'm 23 not certain who was covering the parish in that 24 interim period. So he must have been replacing 25 someone else who was there pro tem. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1244 1 Q. Pro tem? Do you recall the next 2 assignment for Father Lynn? 3 A. Yes. I believe that from Fort Sumner I 4 asked him to serve then in the parish of St. Gertrude 5 in Mora, I believe it was. I don't recall the year. 6 (Exhibit 59 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. I hand you -- I'll represent to you 9 Exhibit 59 is the next document in Father Lynn's file 10 after Exhibit 58, which is a letter from you to 11 Father Lynn dated October 15, 1976. 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: And I only worry about 13 your representation, Mr. Tinkler. Though the 14 Archbishop has not seen these documents -- 15 MR. TINKLER: Here, would you like to 16 check? 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No. It's just the 18 preceding document is dated the 16th. 19 MR. TINKLER: Of '74. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Oh, I'm sorry, okay. 21 THE WITNESS: (Witness referred to 22 document.) 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you reviewed 24 Exhibit 59? 25 A. I have. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1245 1 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to when 2 the assignment occurred? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Do you recall any circumstances 5 surrounding his leaving, Father Lynn leaving Fort 6 Sumner or any adverse circumstances? 7 A. No, sir. In fact, on the contrary. My 8 suggestion to him to accept a new assignment was not 9 happily received either by himself or by the 10 parishioners. Apparently, he felt that good things 11 were happening in the parish, and he would have 12 preferred to remain. The parishioners felt likewise, 13 and had hoped that I could have left him there, but, 14 once again, in the Archdiocese, you need to place men 15 who seem to be doing effective work in one place into 16 another parish. 17 Q. After the appointment, shortly after the 18 appointment or assignment to Mora, did you then 19 receive some correspondence from the parishioners at 20 Fort Sumner that did raise an issue as to the 21 propriety of Father Lynn's actions at Fort Sumner? 22 A. I have no recollection of that. If you 23 have documentation, I would like to see that. 24 (Exhibit 60 was marked for 25 identification.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1246 1 Q. I hand you what's marked as Exhibit 60, 2 which is a letter dated December the 8th, 1976, from 3 one of the parishioners. I can't read it from here 4 -- "Auman" is his name, and it's to you. 5 A. (Witness referred to document.) 6 Q. Now, have you reviewed that Exhibit 60? 7 A. I have, yes. 8 Q. Does it refresh your memory as to the 9 event? 10 A. Yes, it does, sir. The person whose 11 signature is on the letter was the parish priest, the 12 pastor. He was the successor to Father Lynn. He was 13 indicating that Father Lynn's procedure regarding 14 Mass stipends was not, in his mind, good; that Mass 15 stipends are offerings that people will make 16 requesting that a Holy Mass be celebrated on a 17 particular day at a particular time. I've always 18 insisted that this account be kept separate from the 19 general account of the parish because anytime any 20 Mass is celebrated by yourself for another, that has 21 to be checked off so that an accurate account is 22 kept. 23 Father Auman was indicating that that type 24 of procedure had not in fact happened. In fact, he 25 had allowed too many Masses to accumulate that he CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1247 1 could not possibly have celebrated in the immediate 2 future and should have shared those intentions with 3 others. That's what he's referring to. 4 Q. Do you recall that, now that you've read 5 the letter, that happening? 6 A. No, I don't recall that in my mind, but 7 this is what the letter is saying, and I know Father 8 Auman's thinking in that matter. 9 Q. Do you agree with Father Auman's thinking 10 that this was not appropriate, the way that Father 11 Lynn handled the matter, if it was true? 12 A. That's true. 13 Q. Do you recall if you did anything to 14 follow up on that letter? 15 A. I do not recall that, but knowing my 16 feeling regarding this issue, I would have said 17 something to him, as I had to say something to many 18 priests throughout my tenure in reference to this 19 particular area. 20 Q. But you don't recall writing him a letter 21 or anything like that? 22 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 23 answered. 24 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall any other CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1248 1 issues being raised regarding Father Lynn's handling 2 of the moneys for the Fort Sumner parish? 3 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. 4 (Exhibit 61 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 7 as Exhibit 61. 8 MS. KENNEDY: Which is? 9 MR. TINKLER: Which is a letter from the 10 same priest at Fort Sumner, dated July 16, 1977, if 11 you can read that. 12 THE WITNESS: (Witness referred to 13 document.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you now finished 15 reviewing that document? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Do you recall receiving that letter? 18 A. No, I do not recall that letter, but it's 19 certainly a letter from Father Auman. 20 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of the 21 letter? 22 A. I don't recall it. Father Auman in this 23 letter is offering advice to the chancery for better 24 financial accountability from parishes, and also 25 suggestions on how parishes who are going to build CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1249 1 new facilities, whether it be a church or a rectory, 2 how that might go about to better assist that parish 3 than the procedures that had been done previously. 4 I think he is speaking because the church 5 where he is at now did incur a debt in its building 6 of a new church. 7 Q. While Father Lynn was there? 8 A. No. The church had been built many years 9 before that. 10 Q. Father Lynn was the former pastor? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you at least get the impression from 13 reading the letter that he was complaining about the 14 financial condition that Father Lynn left the parish 15 in? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object. Are we 17 speaking about now, in 1994? 18 MR. TINKLER: Yes, as you read the letter. 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: You want his opinion of 20 his impression now, in 1994, reading a letter that 21 was dated 1977? 22 MR. TINKLER: Well, I'd like it in 1977, 23 but he doesn't remember; so I'll ask for it today. 24 THE WITNESS: What the letter says in one 25 paragraph is that, when he arrived in the parish, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1250 1 that there were outstanding past due bills, a total 2 of $2,973, that the parish owed both to the chancery 3 office for the payment of their building, I recall a 4 chancery tax, as well as other bills that the parish 5 had. And this pastor, Father Auman, who is a very 6 fine gentleman, was saying that he had now paid them 7 all up, and everything was now a fresh start. 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And he says, "In the 30 9 years that I have been in the Archdiocese I have 10 never run into a situation as confused and as 11 disheartening as I found here." It's in the second 12 paragraph. 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. "Religion surely cannot be served by such 15 antics." Those are his words; correct? 16 A. That's true. 17 Q. Did you talk to Father Lynn about this 18 letter? 19 A. I do not recall speaking to Father Lynn 20 about this letter in particular. 21 Q. Now, when -- do you want to take a break 22 now? It's up to you. 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: All right, let's go 24 ahead and take a mid-morning break. 25 (A recess was taken.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1251 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, during 2 break, we gave you Deposition Exhibit 62 for you to 3 review. Have you reviewed that document? 4 A. Yes, I have. 5 Q. Do you recall the circumstances 6 surrounding that letter? It's a letter dated 7 November 22, 1977, from -- 8 A. 9 Q. It's -- 10 A. Oh, um-hm. 11 Q. -- to yourself? 12 A. I can't recall all of the details from 13 that date. I recall -- I do not recall 14 I recall his wife, She was a very 15 gracious lady, older lady, very kind people. And 16 their concern that I had in my recollection was their 17 concern over items in their church in Golondrinas, 18 which is a mission chapel about five miles from Mora, 19 thereabouts, and they felt that Father Lynn had 20 removed some items from the church without their 21 permission, and had, in fact, padlocked the doors and 22 then would not allow them to contact him at his 23 office. He was not receiving them to discuss the 24 issue. 25 And so they had brought this to my CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1252 1 attention. And they had hoped that this and any 2 other concern that had been brought to my attention 3 would cause me to remove Father from the parish and 4 replace him with another priest. 5 Q. Do you recall that prior to this letter, 6 Exhibit 62, they had actually presented petitions 7 signed by over 200 of the parishioners to your 8 office? 9 A. I do not recall that, that she puts there 10 in the letter. At least I don't recall it at this 11 time. 12 (Exhibit 63 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, I'm going to 15 hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 63, and I'll 16 represent to you that this comes from Clive Lynn's 17 file. It was furnished to us by the Archdiocese. 18 And these are the signatures, the petitioners' 19 signatures, that appear in his file. 20 A. Um-hm. 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Just a point of 22 clarification. Were these signatures attached to a 23 petition? 24 MR. TINKLER: They preceded this letter. 25 That's all that's in the file. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1253 1 THE WITNESS: And your question, sir? 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) First, I wanted you to 3 look at that and see if you can recall ever seeing 4 those signatures attached to a petition or presented 5 to you in any way. 6 A. I don't recall this specific petition. 7 I've seen many petitions in my term as Archbishop 8 regarding many priests. Petitions are one way of 9 expressing their discontent with a specific issue or 10 whatever it may be; so it's a usual form of people 11 letting you know their concern. 12 Q. If, in fact, in your tenure as Archbishop, 13 you were presented with a petition regarding a 14 particular priest, is that something that you would 15 place in a particular priest's file in your ordinary 16 course of business? 17 A. You say this was in his file, and that 18 must have been my practice. 19 Q. No. I'm asking you, was it your practice? 20 A. Normally, I would keep them, yes. If 21 there was no reason for it, if whatever petition 22 concerned had been made and had been resolved, all 23 this does is just bulk the file up. But this was 24 left there, and I'm sure any other petitions I would 25 have received would have been there as well. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1254 1 Q. Having reviewed the petitions and Exhibit 2 62, the letter, does it refresh your memory at all 3 about the fact that the signatures were delivered in 4 support of -- or in opposition to Father Lynn? 5 A. Yes, it's obvious. 6 (Exhibit 64 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. I hand you what's marked as Exhibit 64, 9 which is a letter from you to dated 10 December 23, 1977. Would you review that? 11 A. (Witness referred to document.) 12 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 64? 13 A. Yes, sir, I have. 14 Q. Do you recall sending that letter to 15 16 A. I don't recall sending it. It is my 17 letter. 18 Q. In the letter you indicate that you had 19 received a previous communication from Mr. and 20 had chosen not to act on it. Do you recall what that 21 was? 22 A. I don't recall that. There's many 23 individuals who call expressing dissatisfaction with 24 one thing or another. You simply cannot act on every 25 one, especially if they're not very substantial. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1255 1 Q. And then you indicate in this letter that 2 you're going to -- now you are concerned because of 3 all the signatures that were attached in support of 4 the letter; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that you were going to take it up with 7 the board? 8 A. Personnel Board. 9 Q. Did you do that? 10 A. I said I would. I can't recall the 11 specific instance. I think the one thing that should 12 be noted is that we received 200 signatures from one 13 group of people, but those in favor of a man don't 14 always write petitions. They are more or less the 15 silent people, majority or minority, whatever the 16 case may be, but there was a large number of people 17 very much in support of Father Lynn and his 18 procedures as well. 19 Q. How do you know that? 20 A. Because I visited the parish. 21 Q. How many parishioners were there in the 22 Mora parish? 23 A. Mora and her missions probably have 500 to 24 600 families. That would be well over 2,000 people. 25 Q. And according to this letter, though, you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1256 1 considered a petition with 200 signatures 2 significant? 3 A. Right, because a church needs unity, and 4 my concern always was for the unity of the people, 5 especially in small communities. 6 Q. Did you talk to Father Lynn about the 7 allegations that are in the letter of November 22, 8 1977? 9 A. I cannot recall a specific instance. 10 Q. Do you recall confronting him about 11 referring to his parishioners as "stupid" and 12 "possessed by the Devil"? 13 A. I do not recall the instance, but I do 14 recall speaking to him about that language. 15 Q. That wasn't the first time you'd heard 16 that he used that type of language with the 17 parishioners; isn't that correct? 18 A. I do not recall the first time that I 19 heard it, but this type of language is offensive, and 20 it's uncalled for, and I recall speaking to him about 21 it. 22 Q. Do you recall if you took any action as a 23 result of the November 22nd letter? 24 A. I don't recall what action was recommended 25 or what action I actually took. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1257 1 (Exhibit 65 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 4 as Exhibit 65 and ask you to review that letter, 5 which is a letter from Reverend Starkey to Clive 6 Lynn, dated January 3, 1978. 7 A. (Witness referred to document.) 8 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 65? 9 A. Yes, I have. 10 Q. Do you recall that letter being sent? 11 A. No, sir, not in particular. 12 Q. Do you remember the subject matter of the 13 letter? 14 A. It just reminds me of the fact that there 15 was a priest, Father Bede, in the parish, and that I 16 had known nothing of his presence, and was concerned 17 as to who he was. 18 Q. And that he was in Father Lynn's parish; 19 correct? 20 A. A priest in any parish for any length of 21 time without notification to us becomes a concern. 22 Q. I'm saying, in this particular instance, 23 this was a priest that was with Father Lynn? 24 A. Oh, yes, uh-huh, certainly. 25 Q. And that's something that you didn't want CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1258 1 happening in your diocese; correct? 2 A. That's right, that's our policy. 3 Q. Do you recall how -- if Father Lynn 4 responded to this letter that's marked as Exhibit 65? 5 A. The Chancellor is the one who wrote the 6 letter in my behalf, and I have to assume that the 7 response went to the Chancellor, and it was taken 8 care of. That's sort of pro forma activity. 9 Q. Do you recall a dispute that arose between 10 Father Lynn and another -- the family in Mora? 11 A. I recall that there was a dispute between 12 the two. 13 Q. And that you were asked to intercede? 14 A. To intercede, yes, to be -- at least to 15 the fact that they informed me of their 16 disappointment with Father's actions or whatever he 17 had done, and what could I do about it. 18 Q. Do you recall that he filed a lawsuit 19 against the parishioners, and that they filed another 20 lawsuit against him? 21 A. Who did what? I just heard "he" and 22 "him." 23 Q. Father Lynn against the and the 24 against Father Lynn. 25 A. Would you state it correctly again? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1259 1 Q. Do you recall that Father Lynn filed a 2 lawsuit against the ? 3 A. No, I don't recall that. I don't recall 4 that. He could very well have done that, but I don't 5 recall that. 6 (Exhibit 66 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 9 as Exhibit 66, which is a letter from yourself to 10 Father Lynn, dated February 6, 1978. 11 A. The letter does not speak of a lawsuit. 12 It speaks of a complaint by the family, a 13 dispute that could be "settled by arbitration, 14 outside of court." 15 Q. It speaks of a complaint filed in court 16 that Judge Romero was handling in Las Vegas; 17 correct? 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That -- the letter 19 speaks for itself. If you want to quote the letter, 20 it says "before whom the complaint by the 21 Family has now been placed." 22 MR. TINKLER: Judge Romero. 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I don't know if the 24 Archbishop knows whether -- and ask him. Was it a 25 formal complaint, as such, that starts a lawsuit or CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1260 1 just an expression of dissatisfaction? It's not 2 clear from the letter. If you have some documents 3 that clarify that, Mr. Tinkler, it would be helpful. 4 THE WITNESS: It appears from my reading 5 of the letter that the family had placed a 6 complaint before Judge Romero or before the court for 7 whatever grievance they felt, and that he had asked 8 that it, the dispute, be settled by arbitration 9 outside of the court, and I agreed with that. 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Why was Father Griego 11 involved? 12 A. He was dean of that area. 13 Q. I don't really want to mark this because I 14 just really want to refresh your memory. These -- I 15 represent these are affidavits of nonprosecution in a 16 case, Lynn v. and then affidavit of 17 nonprosecution in a case of v. Lynn, and I'd 18 just like you to look at those documents and see if 19 it refreshes your memory that there were lawsuits 20 filed, but it was resolved. 21 A. (Witness referred to documents.) 22 Q. Does that refresh your memory? 23 A. I just don't recall those at all. 24 Q. After that event, during his tenure, do 25 you recall receiving complaints from parishioners CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1261 1 about Father Lynn ordering parishioners not to hold 2 funerals at the funeral home? 3 A. No, sir, I don't recall that at all. 4 Q. I can't find it right now, but I'll get to 5 it later. 6 Do you recall another church group in the 7 town of Mora complaining to you about Father Lynn? 8 A. I don't recall a specific group. There 9 were complaints registered with me either by phone 10 call to the office or by mail at various times 11 regarding a policy in this or a practice in that, but 12 I don't recall the groups. 13 (Exhibit 67 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I show you what's marked 16 as Deposition Exhibit 67. 17 MS. KENNEDY: Which is? 18 MR. TINKLER: Which is a letter that 19 appears to be written in Spanish. 20 THE WITNESS: It's a letter from, I 21 believe it must have been the Presbyterian minister 22 at the Chamisal Emmanuel United Presbyterian Church, 23 and he writes it in Spanish. 24 MS. KENNEDY: What's the date, Archbishop? 25 THE WITNESS: The date on this is June 15, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1262 1 1979. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall receiving 3 that letter? 4 A. Not particularly. I recall some 5 communication from the Presbyterian Church in the 6 area. 7 Q. What is the gist of the letter? 8 A. The letter is saying that he, this Enrique 9 Herrera, had met me in 1978, in February, during a 10 special meeting in Las Vegas concerning the "Crisis 11 Corridor," which was a concern of churches for the 12 poverty of the Mora area, and that I was one of the 13 speakers there at the Lutheran Church. 14 He said he had been pastor of Mora for 15 seven years, and during that time had the privilege 16 of knowing Father Leonard Bayer and after him, Father 17 Clive Lynn. He said that, "It is my conviction, my 18 belief, that as ministers of the Lord and his 19 Servants, it's our responsibility to work for the 20 unification and the spirit of all of our communities 21 so that they will not be divided either politically 22 or economically or in any other form. For this 23 reason, with Father Bayer, as with Father Lynn, my 24 approach has been to work for the common good of our 25 people. Upon his arrival in Mora, Father Lynn, we CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1263 1 invited him to eat at our home. He knows my wife and 2 my children in a Christian spirit, and we had begun a 3 friendship in the Lord." 4 "Last evening, Father Lynn consulted with 5 me here in Penasco, not in Mora, in Penasco, because 6 I had been in Mora for seven years. He consulted 7 with me concerning a letter sent to me by the 8 governing body of the Presbyterian Church." 9 And he says, "I am able to say that during 10 the time that I was there in Mora," he said, "I've 11 been here now for a year and seven months, but during 12 the time I was there, Father Lynn showed us an 13 ecumenical spirit, inviting us to his church. My 14 adolescent sons had friendly relations with him. 15 Certainly he would call them 'pagans'" -- he put it 16 in accents -- "but our children were not offended 17 because they understood that he was saying this in 18 friendliness to them, and that they played, he played 19 with them. It is my prayer that whatever friction 20 there may be, that in this Christian spirit, that it 21 may be eliminated so that the world may see in truth 22 that we are one body of Christ. May the Lord bless 23 you in my desire," and he signs his name. 24 Q. Do you remember receiving the letter from 25 the Presbyterian Church that is referred to in this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1264 1 letter? 2 A. I just recall some communication from the 3 Presbyterian Church, but I don't recall the content 4 of that. I didn't know whether this was the letter I 5 was recalling in my mind or if there was another. He 6 refers to another. 7 Q. There's not another in the file, which is 8 why I handed you that one. 9 A. Oh, I see. 10 Q. Do you recall any aftermath such as a 11 letter by Father Lynn to the Presbyterians in another 12 letter? 13 A. No, sir. 14 (Exhibit 68 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. I'm going to hand you what's marked as 68, 17 which is a letter from Clive Lynn to the Session of 18 Mora Presbyterian Church. 19 (Exhibit 69 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 And then 69, which is a letter from the 22 Clerk of Session for the United Presbyterian Church 23 in Mora to yourself. 24 MS. KENNEDY: Could you give us the 25 dates? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1265 1 MR. TINKLER: The first letter, 68, is not 2 dated -- well, here, there is a postmark, June 19, 3 1979, and then Exhibit 69 is dated June 30, 1979. 4 Q. I'm not really asking you to read the 5 letter from Clive Lynn, but if you could read -- 6 because this is an attachment -- 69, just read 7 Exhibit 69. 8 A. Attachment 69? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. (Witness referred to document.) 11 Q. Does that refresh your memory at all as to 12 the dispute between Father Lynn and the Presbyterian 13 Church? 14 A. No, sir, I don't recall that, I wish I 15 did, because we always had very cordial relationships 16 with all of the churches. I served myself as 17 president of New Mexico Council of Churches for three 18 years and was active with them, with all of the 19 churches throughout every year that I was serving as 20 the Archbishop, nearly 20 years. And I did my best 21 to make certain that those relationships and the 22 ecumenical spirit would be furthered and promoted, 23 and I visited many churches of various faiths and 24 denominations and priests from their pulpits in order 25 to promote that spirit. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1266 1 The issue they're referring to here is the 2 use of the word "pagan" by Father Lynn. I don't know 3 how he used it or when, but to use that word in 4 reference to anyone, especially of another Christian 5 denomination, is uncalled for. 6 Q. Do you recall confronting Father Lynn 7 about this dispute? 8 A. I don't recall it, but I would be certain 9 that I did because that's my conviction, and I am 10 certain that there was a response to this to Father 11 Lynn from myself, verbally. 12 Q. Verbally, orally, as opposed to in 13 writing? 14 A. Orally, yes. Make that strong. 15 Q. Do you recall receiving additional 16 complaints from the parishioners in Mora subsequent 17 to this time frame we've just gone through, 1979, 18 complaints about Father Lynn? 19 A. As I mentioned previously, there were 20 various complaints about various things because his 21 manner was just different to them. I don't recall 22 the time frame in which those letters or calls may 23 have come. 24 (Exhibit 70 was marked for 25 identification.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1267 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Let me hand you what's 2 marked as Deposition Exhibit 70. That's a letter 3 from some parishioners to yourself regarding Father 4 Lynn, dated February the -- just February 1980. 5 A. (Witness referred to document.) 6 Q. Have you finished reviewing Exhibit 70? 7 A. Yes, sir, I have. 8 Q. Do you recall receiving that letter from 9 the parishioners at St. Gertrude's? 10 A. No, sir. It's one of the letters that 11 came in. 12 Q. Complaining about Father Lynn? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In the first paragraph, the first sentence 15 says, "We, the militant few, (as we are referred to) 16 and which is over 300, from St. Gertrudes Church in 17 Mora, have not had any response from you to our 18 previous pleas, which we have submitted to in regard 19 to replacement for Father Lynn." 20 Do you recall receiving the letter where 21 they complained about your inaction or nonresponse? 22 A. This is the letter. 23 Q. I mean, do you have a memory of getting 24 complaints about that? 25 A. No. My memory is that they were CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1268 1 complaining. She mentions "inaction." I think what 2 she's saying is "inaction to our satisfaction." In 3 other words, their satisfaction would have been 4 removal of the man from the parish. 5 Q. Archbishop, this says, we "have not had 6 any response." It doesn't say "inaction." 7 A. I realize that. Response was given. I 8 had visited the parish. I had spoken with people. I 9 recall visiting the parish because I had 10 confirmations in the parish. 11 Q. Do you recall visiting the parish after 12 you received petition, which is in a 13 letter dated November 22 -- is that '77? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Yes. 15 A. I don't recall the dates when I visited 16 the parish, sir. I just know I was there. I can 17 still recall the celebrations, the people, the 18 dinners that were served. 19 Q. Well, here in the last paragraph, it says, 20 "We have become more concerned now, and we hope that 21 you may not ignore our plea before this division in 22 our parish gets bigger, the same way, or worse as we 23 understand he divided the people in every parish 24 where he has been." 25 A. To my best of my recollection, he had been CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1269 1 in Fort Sumner, and I do not recall a division 2 there. So the statement is not as accurate as she 3 may have felt, or whoever wrote the letter. 4 Q. But isn't it also true that at this point 5 in time, February 1980, nor at any point in time, you 6 had not reviewed his filed? 7 A. I had not reviewed his file. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1270 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall if he you 7 took any action as a result of Exhibit 70? 8 A. I do not recall any action that I took. I 9 think the action that they would have been satisfied 10 with would have been just removal. 11 Q. I know, I understand you think that. Is 12 that a memory you have that -- 13 A. No, it's not a memory. These were good 14 people, and I loved everyone, and still do to this 15 day, everyone in those parishes that I would visit. 16 They were people who were part of our church, active 17 members, and it hurt me also that they were 18 dissatisfied with their priest or anyone in any 19 parish would be dissatisfied with the ministry of 20 their priest. It was not as though I was calloused 21 or turning a deaf ear to them. I was concerned. 22 Q. Do you disagree with their statement in 23 that last exhibit that -- Exhibit 70, that you had 24 made no response to their previous complaints? 25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The record speaks CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1271 1 otherwise, Exhibit 64. 2 THE WITNESS: Sir, I do not recall, except 3 a letter to which he had written to me 4 about it at that time, I do not recall any other 5 letter. We have the letter of that you 6 showed me. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Right. 8 A. But I do not recall other correspondence 9 that I may have had with specific individuals. This 10 letter is simply signed "Concerned Parishioners." 11 There's no name or address for response to it. So 12 they are simply reminding me of their concern. 13 Q. I believe you also indicated that in 14 response -- that Exhibit 64, where you indicated you 15 would be taking this up with the board, and I assume 16 doing something about it. You don't recall if you 17 did anything about it, do you? 18 A. I do not recall what action, if any, was 19 taken as a result of that particular complaint. 20 Q. And I'll represent to you that the file, 21 the Clive Lynn file, there is no further mention of 22 that complaint until Exhibit 70. 23 A. All right. 24 Q. Do you recall independently of some action 25 that you took that might not be reflected in his CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1272 1 file? 2 A. Let me think a moment. I cannot recall 3 action that I took. I indicated in the letter that 4 it would be brought to the Personnel Board. I have 5 to assume that was done. I do not recall what 6 recommendations the Personnel Board may have made for 7 any visitation or consultation with Father Lynn 8 regarding these concerns of the people. 9 It occurs to me that it would have been my 10 practice to have called him in and addressed the 11 issues with him. What I said to him or what was to 12 be the result of any words shared, I can't recall 13 that. 14 Q. But if there's no correspondence in his 15 file indicating that you wrote back to 16 do you have any -- I'm just wanting to know if you 17 have an independent memory that maybe that happened 18 and it's just not in the file? 19 A. But I did write to here. 20 Q. I'm talking about after this letter. This 21 letter, you didn't actually take any action against 22 Father Lynn. You said you were going to. 23 A. Right. But I don't recall a second letter 24 to him, no. I think that's your question. 25 (A discussion was held off the record.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1273 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, when you 2 received Exhibit 70 where the allegation was made 3 that Father Lynn had previously divided parishes, and 4 you've indicated you didn't have any knowledge of 5 that, didn't you think it would be prudent to check 6 his file out and see if that was the case? 7 A. I didn't say I didn't have any knowledge. 8 I said that I knew of his assignment under me to Fort 9 Sumner not to have been that case. What I was 10 hearing her say was that his method of ministering a 11 parish was such that it was resulting in a division 12 of people, and that's a thing you concern yourself 13 with. 14 As I mentioned previously, my concern will 15 always be for the division. Christianity has to be 16 united for it to be believed. I realize that in the 17 normal course of events, every priest has their own 18 method of doing one thing or other, another way, 19 because some have talents in this, others talents in 20 that, but we try to maintain a sincerity of ministry 21 to all people and make it a good ministry. 22 Q. Is it fair to say that at least by 23 February of 1980, you had received sufficient notice 24 to be of a mind that there were problems in the Mora 25 parish as a result of Father Lynn? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1274 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And isn't it true that you continued to 3 receive complaints after that date? 4 A. I don't recall. It's possible. 5 Q. Let me ask you this. Would it be 6 appropriate for a priest to prohibit members of the 7 congregation from attending a graduation ceremony, 8 high school graduation ceremony in the church because 9 they didn't go to religious training class? 10 A. I want to make a general statement, 11 because I think whatever the situation is, it depends 12 upon the priest and the situation, but personally 13 feeling, I would question why the prohibition of 14 people coming into church. I think our churches are 15 open to people. That's my first statement. 16 But the individual priest may have reasons 17 for limiting the number, because it doesn't 18 accommodate that many people who may be given 19 preference to enter. Those are other situations that 20 may be present. And that happens frequently in 21 various ceremonies simply because of the size of the 22 church. 23 Q. Do you recall receiving a complaint from a 24 parishioner in Mora that Father Lynn had chased 31 25 boys and girls out of the church and to the point CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1275 1 that they cried on their graduation day? 2 A. No, sir, I do not recall that, but that 3 saddens me just to hear it. 4 (Exhibit 71 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Let me hand you what's 7 marked as Exhibit 71. Why don't you review that? I 8 think you can actually read the first page. That's 9 all you need to read. 10 A. (Witness referred to document.) 11 Q. Have you finished reading Exhibit 71? 12 A. Yes, sir, I have. 13 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to 14 receiving a complaint about a high school graduation? 15 A. That particular -- I don't recall that in 16 particular, but it's explained in the letter very 17 well. 18 Q. That is what the letter depicts; is that 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, um-hm. 21 Q. Do you recall taking any action or having 22 any conversations with Father Lynn regarding this 23 issue? 24 A. Not in specific, sir. I just don't recall 25 that. Again, it's a type of complaint that I believe CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1276 1 I would have seen him about. 2 Q. Do you recall Father 3 talking to you about the problem with Father Lynn? 4 5 6 A. No, I don't. He was then pastor at Our 7 Lady of Sorrows in Las Vegas during this time, I 8 believe, but I don't recall his -- any particular 9 conversation with him. 10 Q. During this period of time, do you recall 11 having any concern about Father Lynn's conduct in the 12 parish? 13 A. I think each of these things brought to my 14 attention is concern. 15 Q. Do you recall, while Father Lynn was at 16 Mora, receiving allegations from the parishioners 17 regarding his inappropriate sexual conduct? 18 A. Would you repeat that question? 19 Q. Do you recall receiving allegations from 20 parishioners in Mora while he was, while Father Lynn 21 was at Mora regarding Father Lynn's sexual 22 misconduct? 23 A. No, sir, I can't recall receiving any 24 complaints from parishioners from that Mora Valley at 25 all. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1277 1 Q. You don't recall receiving any complaints, 2 or do you mean any complaints about sexual 3 allegations? 4 A. I'm sorry, about sexual allegations. 5 (Exhibit 72 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 8 as Deposition Exhibit 72, which is a letter dated 9 August 2, 1980, from a parishioner to yourself. It's 10 a handwritten letter, and I don't believe -- I'll 11 represent that I don't believe there's a -- the final 12 page of the letter is contained in the file, because 13 it's not signed, it ends abruptly, but this is in 14 Father Lynn's file. Would you review it? 15 MR. BEACH: There is a final page. 16 MR. TINKLER: It's not in my file. 17 MR. BEACH: Down at the bottom it will 18 have the number ASF028299. At least I think it's the 19 final page. 20 MR. TINKLER: Here it is. I found it. Is 21 it page 8? 22 MR. BEACH: Yes. 23 MR. TINKLER: Okay, here (indicated). 24 MR. BEACH: I think it follows in number 25 the prior page, which is 28298. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1278 1 MR. TINKLER: Yes, I just found it. We 2 have attached it. 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Jerry, can we go off 4 the record a minute? 5 MR. TINKLER: It's hard to read. 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's going to take us a 7 little while. 8 (A discussion was held off the record.) 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, you've now 10 had an opportunity to review Exhibit 72; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Yes, sir, to the best of my ability. 13 Q. The handwriting is difficult; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall receiving Exhibit 72 back at 17 the time in August of 1980? 18 A. I recall some communication now when I saw 19 the name of this gentleman, Brother that 20 recalls something in my own memory, communication 21 from him. 22 Q. What do you remember about Brother 23 24 A. I never met him. I just recall that I 25 received some form of communication from him CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1279 1 complaining about Father Clive Lynn. 2 Q. And reading Exhibit 72 today, does it 3 refresh your memory as to the nature of that 4 complaint that Brother had expressed to you? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. So you do now remember it? 7 A. No, not in detail. 8 Q. Just in general? 9 A. I don't recall, for instance, I had not 10 any recollection whatsoever in reference to his talk 11 about confession, and reading that today, it brings 12 back that recollection. 13 Q. That is regarding the fact that Father 14 Lynn was breaking the seal of confession, or 15 allegedly breaking the seal of confession; is that 16 correct? 17 A. Allegedly, that's correct. 18 Q. And, allegedly, he was broadcasting the 19 sins that were confessed to him by the children in 20 the parish to others? 21 A. Allegedly, right, sir. 22 Q. Is that a violation of his canonical 23 duties? 24 A. The breaking of the sacramental seal is 25 very serious, if, in fact, it occurs. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1280 1 Q. And, in fact, I think in deposition last 2 January, you indicated that it's what's called a 3 "reserved sin"? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. One of the more serious -- 6 A. Actions, um-hm. 7 Q. So did you contact Father Lynn about this 8 allegation of breaking the seal of confession? 9 A. I cannot recall the circumstance of it, 10 but I know I contacted Father Lynn because of this 11 particular reference. 12 Q. Do you recall what Father Lynn said about 13 this allegation? 14 A. Once again, I cannot recall the detail of 15 the conversation or what he said except that he had 16 denied it, that the man was exaggerating, and I can't 17 recall other statements that he made regarding it, 18 but I know that his was a denial of these facts. 19 Q. I take it you did not contact Brother 20 yourself to learn more about these 21 allegations? 22 A. No, sir, I did not. He did leave shortly 23 after this letter was written. 24 Q. Turning to page 4 of this letter, at the 25 top of the page, I'm going to read it and see if you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1281 1 read it the same way. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. "I do not care if a man is homosexual or 4 heterosexual. It depends on what he does with it." 5 That word is -- "Lynn"? 6 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to have to 7 object. It calls for speculation. 8 THE WITNESS: I can't read it either. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I think it's "Father 10 Lynn," "F. Lynn," and I can't read the next word. 11 Then it says, "He has made" -- A-L-O -- I can't read 12 it. Can you read that word? 13 A. A-L-O-A-N -- 14 Q. "Advances," could that be "advances"? 15 A. Yes, it could be "advances." 16 Q. -- "to me and other boys," and the next 17 word, can you read that? 18 A. Is it a "thus"? 19 Q. "And thus a terrible scandal. I realize 20 that all of us are sin" -- 21 A. "Sinners." 22 Q. -- "sinners, that we fail often but such 23 tremendous damage as caused when a priest sins in his 24 own parish." What did you think when you heard that 25 allegation? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1282 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you saying what 2 does he think now, or what did he think then? 3 MR. TINKLER: Then. 4 THE WITNESS: It was, at least to my 5 recollection, first of all, it was the first time I 6 had heard anything of this nature in reference to 7 Father Lynn. I cannot describe for you what my 8 feeling was at that time, how it might have been. It 9 certainly caused me concern, as did his letter. 10 That's about all I could say. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall taking any 12 action against Father Lynn as a result of the 13 allegations in this letter? 14 A. Oh, I don't even recall the date. Do you 15 have the date for this letter? 16 Q. It's August 2, 1980. 17 A. I do not have an active recollection of 18 the specific action I took, but I just know that I 19 would have had to confront him in reference to 20 comments about confession. And that leads me to 21 believe that I would have confronted him about the 22 contents. But I, on the other hand, was not able to 23 reveal the gentleman's, what the source of the 24 information, because he had requested it not be 25 revealed. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1283 1 Q. But it's your belief that you probably 2 confronted Father Lynn about both the breaking of the 3 seal of confession and the sexual allegations? 4 A. Yes, sir, but I could not -- I cannot 5 swear that I actually did or when I actually did it 6 because I have no recollection. 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let the record reflect 8 what you're characterizing as sexual allegations was 9 the paragraph that you -- 10 MR. TINKLER: Read into the record. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- instructed -- which 12 at your interpretation said he "made advances to me 13 and other boys." 14 MR. TINKLER: Sure. 15 MS. KENNEDY: Do we have anything else on 16 this, or should we break now for lunch? 17 MR. TINKLER: We can break now. 18 (The deposition recessed at 12:10 p.m. 19 and resumed at 1:10 p.m. as follows:) 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, I'm going to 21 hand you what's marked as Deposition Exhibit 73, 22 which is a letter from the Parishioners of St. 23 Gertrude's to yourself, dated August 11, 1980. Could 24 you please review that. 25 A. (The witness referred to document.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1284 1 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 73? 2 A. Yes, I have. 3 Q. Do you remember receiving Exhibit 73? 4 A. No, sir, I don't remember that. 5 Q. Do you remember receiving correspondence 6 in general like this, though, from the parishioners 7 of St. Gertrude? 8 A. As I've testified earlier, yes, the 9 various correspondence. 10 Q. It appears, at least these parishioners 11 that are writing do not believe that you are 12 listening to them. Would you agree with that? 13 A. That's what they seem to indicate on the 14 letter. 15 Q. Do you have a memory of things you may 16 have done that would be contrary to the belief 17 they're expressing; in other words, that you were 18 doing things to alleviate their concerns? 19 A. The request in this letter, similar to the 20 same request in other letters, was requesting 21 replacement for Father Lynn as their pastor. They 22 were asking me to transfer him out and to place 23 another priest as their pastor. 24 Q. Had you made any efforts in that 25 direction? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1285 1 A. As I testified earlier this morning, each 2 of these issues, including this, were brought before 3 the Personnel Board for their own discussion, as 4 well, and recommendation to me. Likewise, I would, 5 as I mentioned earlier this morning, I had occasion 6 -- I don't recall when or how frequently, but I had 7 occasion as their Archbishop to visit the parish of 8 Mora for the sacrament of confirmation and parish 9 visitations, and had occasion then to address the 10 people and to have a personal view as to what was 11 taking place. 12 Q. Do you recall if you confronted Father 13 Lynn after receiving this letter of August 11, 1980? 14 A. To confront him about what? 15 Q. The fact that his parishioners wanted him 16 out. 17 A. That exchange between us was frequent 18 inasmuch as people would write, I would let him know 19 that there was dissatisfaction. 20 Q. You would convey that dissatisfaction to 21 Father Lynn? 22 A. Yeah, either myself or else his 23 representative on the Personnel Board would be able 24 to speak with him. 25 Q. Do you remember who was on the Personnel CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1286 1 Board during this time frame? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Do you believe that you did anything as a 4 result of this letter, this Exhibit 73, to satisfy 5 the concerns of the parishioners of St. Gertrude? 6 A. I believe I did what was reasonable in 7 this instance. The only thing that would satisfy 8 them was, in fact, the removal of Father Lynn 9 immediately, if possible, because they were 10 dissatisfied with his administration. We discussed 11 that apparently with the Personnel Board. No action 12 to that extent was taken. 13 Q. Did you even respond to this letter? 14 A. There were no signatures or addresses. It 15 was simply an unsigned letter. 16 Q. Did you try and contact who 17 had previously delivered letters like this to you? 18 A. No, sir, I did not. 19 (Exhibit 74 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what is 22 marked Exhibit 74, which is a letter from 23 to His Holiness Pope John Paul II, dated October 6, 24 1980. I'd like you to review that letter. 25 A. (Witness referred to document.) CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1287 1 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 74? 2 A. Yes, I have. 3 Q. Do you remember this event, the letter 4 being sent to the Pope, complaining about Father 5 Lynn? 6 A. No, I do not. The letter was addressed to 7 him at the Vatican. 8 Q. Did you hear from the Pope about this 9 letter? 10 A. I do not recall hearing from His Holiness. 11 Normally, that is not the channel they would use. 12 Q. Do you recall hearing from anyone in the 13 church regarding this letter? 14 A. I simply do not recall it. 15 Q. This letter, Exhibit 74, is contained in 16 Father Lynn's file, his personnel file. Do you know 17 how that could have been put in the file if you 18 didn't receive a copy of it? 19 A. Judging from what appears to be an 20 envelope, it was addressed to "His Holiness" in Rome, 21 and apparently stamped in Mora, it probably went 22 directly to the Pope. The secretary of state or his 23 secretary would have received the letter. Since it 24 was dealing specifically with an issue in the United 25 States, it would have gone to the pro nuncio in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1288 1 Washington, and he would have then handled it as he 2 chose. Perhaps -- and I have to say "perhaps" 3 because I do not recall this -- he would have mailed 4 it to me. 5 Q. But it's true, isn't it, that you're the 6 only one in this Archdiocese, the only individual 7 that has control of the personnel files? 8 A. Myself, the secretary, placed the things 9 in there, yes, sir. 10 Q. And the secretary does that when you ask 11 her to place things in the file? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. So is it logical, at least, to you that 14 you probably did receive this letter? 15 A. Yes, but I did not recall receiving it, 16 which was your question. 17 Q. Go to the first page of this letter, 18 please. In the second paragraph, the author of the 19 letter says that, "Many times, the parishioners of 20 St. Gertrudes Church have come to our Archbishop, 21 Robert F. Sanchez, personally and in writing 22 regarding a priest we have in St. Gertrudes parish in 23 Mora, New Mexico, by the name of Clive C. Lynn." 24 Do you disagree with that statement? 25 A. No, I think it's an accurate statement. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1289 1 You certainly can interpret the word "many." 2 Q. The last sentence in that paragraph says, 3 "Father Lynn was expelled from three different 4 parishes, from one of them by force, before being 5 sent here." Do you agree with that statement? 6 A. I do not know of him being expelled from 7 three different parishes. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1290 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In the second paragraph 15 it says, "Many times as our religious leader is 16 supposed to be" -- "as our religious leader he is 17 supposed to be, has shown great discrimination toward 18 our people, which is mostly of Hispanic origin." Was 19 that something that you had been made aware of prior 20 to this letter? 21 A. No, sir. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object to the inference 23 that he was made aware of it at the time of this 24 letter. 25 MR. TINKLER: That's probably correct, as CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1291 1 far as using the term "aware." 2 Q. Do you recall if after October 6, 1980, 3 you did any -- took any action? I know you don't 4 remember receiving the letter, but you don't deny 5 that it had to have been received. Do you remember 6 taking action after that with respect to Father 7 Lynn's ministry in Mora? 8 A. There's no single event that can come to 9 mind which could be called action regarding this 10 incident that I can remember. I just don't remember 11 that at all. 12 Q. Earlier I had asked you about whether you 13 remembered hearing of allegations that Father Lynn 14 didn't approve of parishioners taking their deceased 15 to the funeral home, and I wasn't able to 16 locate an exhibit, but do you see that that's now 17 mentioned in paragraph 4 of this letter? 18 A. Yes, sir, I see that there. 19 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to that 20 particular allegation? 21 A. No, I never had other allegations at all 22 regarding that. That was not part of my knowledge. 23 I have read it here, but I do not recall anything, 24 any other knowledge at that time. 25 Q. Turning to the second page, the top CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1292 1 paragraph, it says, "Many are the complaints our 2 parishioners have against him as Sabine" -- "as" -- 3 it says "Ms." -- "Sabine Griego expressed at the time 4 that he had so many complaints against Father Lynn, 5 that he was tired of that, and moreover that Father 6 Lynn did not belong in the Mora Parish." Do you 7 remember hearing that from Father Sabine Griego? 8 A. No, not in so many words. I just -- I 9 think he was dean during part of this time, and then 10 he was no longer in Las Vegas. I don't recall. 11 Q. At this time in 1980, this is October of 12 1980, did you have a shortage of priests in the 13 diocese at that time? 14 A. As I mentioned this morning, shortage is 15 very relative, but I do not recall, certainly I could 16 not recall at this moment if we had extra priests or 17 if there was a shortage. From my own experience, 18 we've always tried to cover the needs of the people 19 in whatever way necessary. 20 Q. Do you remember why you were -- why you 21 decided or had decided up to this point in time not 22 to remove Father Lynn from this parish? 23 A. I think one of the strongest factors may 24 have been, and I'm trying to think back, just the 25 impression that I received, as well as the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1293 1 information that I received from parishioners 2 themselves when I would visit their parish, as far as 3 the essentials of parish life were concerned, I saw 4 an active parish, people involved, a religious 5 education program with release time that had a very 6 large number, larger than some parishes that are 7 bigger than Mora, which indicated some kind of 8 success. Somebody was behind it. 9 I saw organizations such as the Legion of 10 Mary with large numbers of both adults and youth. 11 Vesper service on Sunday evening I can recall 12 impressed me because most parishes never had vesper 13 services, and almost a full church present. 14 I guess just the positive things that I 15 saw must have impressed me deeply enough to say, 16 essentially, something right is happening, although 17 the man had a method about him that seemed to either 18 aggravate people or cause them to disagree with his 19 methods. 20 MR. TINKLER: Do you have Exhibit 72? 21 MR. KIERST: I have it. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I believe you just said 23 that you understood that the youth group had 24 increased its membership? 25 A. I didn't say "increased." I said, what I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1294 1 saw, what I heard from the teachers themselves, that 2 they had a very large number, and I was impressed 3 with the number for a parish the size of Mora for 4 release time from the school program. 5 Incidentally, that release time program 6 was unique in our Archdiocese. 7 Q. I want to refer you back to Exhibit 72, 8 page 2, this letter from Brother Coleman. I'll read 9 it here. It says, "Our numbers for high school 10 R.T.," and I assume that's "release training"; is 11 that what it -- 12 A. "Release time." 13 Q. -- "release time have dropped from 450 to 14 90 per week." 15 A. -- "especially because of the 16 'anticipated' graduation mass which caused 17 tremendous division and scandal." So that was an 18 occasion why it dropped down. 19 Q. What is the occasion that you're referring 20 to that you say it actually increased? 21 A. I didn't say "increased." My statement 22 was that I was deeply impressed with the numbers, the 23 large numbers attending. This is for a high school 24 release time program. That's significant to have 25 that many high school youngsters in a religious CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1295 1 education program. That doesn't even include 2 elementary kids, which is normally two or three times 3 the number of high school children. 4 In the state, in our archdiocese, very few 5 parishes -- in fact I should put it this way: Every 6 parish would be delighted to have 400 youngsters 7 attending a high school program. That is 8 significant. 9 Q. But isn't the gist of Exhibit 72 that by 10 the point in time, I think it's August 2, 1980, that 11 number had decreased to 90? 12 A. It had decreased, but he gives a reason, 13 and he doesn't say -- of course, he had left, 14 apparently, the letter says that he had left, where 15 the numbers increased. 16 And I don't want to argue that point. I'm 17 trying to make a statement to you, which you can 18 accept or not, that I was impressed with the large 19 number of students attending the religious education 20 program of release time. That was impressive to me. 21 Q. When was the last time you visited Mora 22 prior to August of 1980? 23 A. I don't recall that offhand. 24 Q. Do you recall how many times you visited 25 Mora during Father Lynn's assignment in Mora? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1296 1 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. Certainly, 2 I would have been there for confirmation every other 3 year. I would have been there for a parish fiesta, 4 hopefully, if I'm not out of town, and perhaps for a 5 pastoral visit during that time. 6 (Exhibit 75 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what is 9 marked Deposition Exhibit 75, which is a letter from 10 the fire services chief in Mora to yourself, dated 11 February 26, 1981. Could you please review that. 12 A. (Witness referred to document.) 13 Q. Have you finished reviewing Exhibit 75? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Do you recall this incident? 16 A. No, I just don't recall that. 17 Q. The fire chief is alleging that Father 18 Lynn would lock the exit doors with all the 19 parishioners inside, and they found it to be unsafe. 20 Isn't that the gist of the letter? 21 A. It says locking of exit doors. It doesn't 22 say all of them. 23 Q. Okay, "exit doors." 24 A. Right. I don't recall that. I'm trying 25 to think in my mind what would have been a reason for CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1297 1 doing that and how the church is situated in Mora. 2 Q. Do you remember feeling like perhaps it 3 wasn't safe for your parishioners? 4 A. It's obvious that it's not safe to lock 5 exit doors. It's certainly not wise and obviously 6 contrary to some form of guideline from the state. 7 Q. And the letter even indicates that Father 8 Lynn had previously been advised of this violation; 9 correct? 10 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. The document 11 speaks for itself. 12 THE WITNESS: I guess so. It doesn't say 13 it directly, but it seems to indicate that. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) It says, "On January 15 20th, 1981, I sent a letter to Rev. Clive C. Lynn, 16 Pastor of St. Gertrude's Parish Church in Mora 17 concerning the locking of 'Exit' doors during 18 occupancy." Doesn't that mean that Father Lynn was 19 previously notified? 20 A. He was notified, and then they notified me 21 about that. Okay. 22 Q. Did you become concerned just for the 23 safety of your parishioners in February of 1981? 24 A. I was always concerned for the safety of 25 my parishioners and for their spiritual welfare. The CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1298 1 fact that I cannot recall this specific incident does 2 not eliminate my concern for the parishioners. If 3 this had happened last year, I could tell you in 4 detail what took place. This happened 15 years ago, 5 and I simply don't recall that specific incident. 6 Q. I understand that, but I'm saying, you had 7 constant concerns relative to Father Lynn and Mora; 8 isn't that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Why were you keeping him there? 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Asked and answered. 12 MR. TINKLER: No, this is a new date. 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Wait a minute. The 14 last time we asked the question -- 15 MR. TINKLER: It was October. 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It was October 1980. 17 This is February 1981. We're going to then do this 18 on a quarterly basis? It's your deposition. You can 19 answer. 20 MR. TINKLER: Father Lynn is not my 21 responsibility. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The Archbishop -- it's 23 just been asked and answered about five minutes ago 24 about three months ago. 25 THE WITNESS: Just a few moments ago you CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1299 1 asked me why I had not transferred him out, and I 2 responded to the best of my recollection which I felt 3 influenced me the greatest. If I had not seen what I 4 would call the essential of parish life occurring 5 there, I'm sure I would have acted differently, but 6 seeing what I saw and hearing from the parishioners, 7 a large number of parishioners very actively 8 involved, very much a part of the church, it was not 9 an easy situation to handle. There are some things 10 in life call for difficult decisions, and the 11 judgments are not easy to come by. 12 I guess I was making this decision on what 13 information I could see. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall what it 15 was you were looking for that you were going to 16 require to happen before you did move Father Lynn out 17 of there? 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 19 Speculation. That's asking to predict the future. 20 MR. TINKLER: No, I'm asking him to recall 21 if at the time he was looking for any particular acts 22 which would warrant removing Father Lynn from the 23 parish. 24 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I was not looking 25 for any particular acts. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1300 1 (Exhibit 76 was marked for 2 identification.) 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 4 as Deposition Exhibit 76, which is a letter from 5 6 Vegas, New Mexico, to you, dated June 29, 1981. 7 Would you please review that document. 8 A. (Witness referred to document.) 9 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 76? 10 A. Yes, sir, I have. 11 Q. Do you recall receiving this letter? 12 A. No, sir, I don't. 13 Q. Would you please turn to the third 14 paragraph of that letter. It says, "I am not writing 15 to inform you of the situation, as I know you are 16 already aware of it, I'm writing due to my knowledge 17 of the long-term, damaging effects of adults acting 18 out their sexual distress on young people." 19 Do you recall receiving anything from a 20 mental health professional, without the specifics, 21 that brought to your attention more sex-related 22 allegations? 23 A. I do not recall any contact with a social 24 service professional, as you mentioned. 25 Q. Do you recall hearing of additional CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1301 1 allegations regarding Father Lynn and his sexual 2 behavior? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. The next sentence says, "In any private 5 individual, such actions are inappropriate." Do you 6 agree with that? 7 A. I don't know what actions she is referring 8 to. 9 Q. "Acting out their sexual distress on young 10 people"? 11 A. In what way? 12 Q. Did you happen to call 13 and see what she might have meant? 14 A. No, I did not. I do not recall it. 15 Q. This letter was also in Father Lynn's 16 personnel file, and like the other letters, it would 17 have had to have been placed there either by you or 18 at your direction; isn't that correct? 19 A. That's true. 20 (Exhibit 77 was marked for 21 identification.) 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm handing you what's 23 marked as Deposition Exhibit 77. It's a letter from 24 you to and it's dated July 13, 1981. 25 Would you review that, please. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1302 1 A. (Witness referred to document.) 2 Q. Do you recall sending the letter, which is 3 marked as Exhibit 77? 4 A. No, sir, I just don't recall it. 5 Q. Do you see in the last sentence of the 6 first paragraph, you said in this letter, "Your 7 comments will be kept in confidence and yet discussed 8 by the proper persons." Who would the "proper 9 persons" have been at that point in time? 10 A. I would have discussed it, and, again, I 11 would have to go back in my own mind, with my 12 Chancellor; perhaps, and I can't say for certain, my 13 attorney. I do not recall -- I don't believe I would 14 have brought this to the Personnel Board. I don't 15 see it marked up here; so apparently I did not. And 16 then maybe I did, as this first letter I had written 17 "Personnel Board" up here; so it may have been 18 brought before the Personnel Board. 19 Q. The first letter you're referring to is 20 Exhibit 76; correct? 21 A. 76, yes. 22 Q. Did you confront Father Lynn about these 23 allegations? 24 A. I don't have a specific allegation in 25 front of me, but I do not recall confronting Father CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1303 1 Lynn about this specific allegation. I know I 2 confronted him regarding various complaints from 3 Mora, but I cannot recall what specific complaint or 4 what specific allegation or even when the 5 confrontations took place. 6 Q. Did this letter from the mental health 7 worker give you reason to think perhaps you should 8 remove Father Lynn from the Mora parish? 9 A. Yes, it would have caused me greater 10 concern, without a doubt. 11 Q. You know, at this point in time in your 12 tenure as Archbishop, you had already confronted 13 Jason Sigler three months before this? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And had him immediately removed from 16 service because of allegations of sexual 17 impropriety. Why didn't you do something at least 18 similar to that with Father Lynn? 19 A. I think we have two different instances 20 here to which I reacted. The first instance to which 21 you're referring with Father Sigler, there had been 22 specific allegations, boys come forward, families 23 come forward. The pastor comes to me and presents 24 those specifics. An action is taken because of 25 that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1304 1 In this letter, we have a concern about -- 2 I don't recall exactly how she placed this, stated 3 it, but it was not anything specific. It didn't 4 lessen the concern, but I'm saying the action taken 5 seems to have been due to the fact that we had 6 specific allegations and families in one instance. 7 In the other instance, we did not. 8 Q. Did you contact Miss Atkinson and ask her 9 for the specifics? 10 A. I do not recall contacting her. 11 Q. And your letter that you wrote her, you 12 did not ask her to give you more specifics, did you? 13 A. No, sir, I did not. 14 Q. And at that point in time, you had already 15 received previous complaints of sexual misconduct, or 16 alleged sexual misconduct, by Father Lynn; isn't that 17 correct? 18 A. I think you showed me one letter this 19 morning from a Brother Coleman that made reference to 20 that. 21 Q. Did you have some kind of personal 22 relationship with Father Lynn that caused you not to 23 want to take action against him? 24 A. No, sir, I did not, at no time. 25 Q. Was there something else going on in your CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1305 1 life at the time that was distracting you from your 2 duties with respect to Father Lynn? 3 A. There were a lot of problems with our 4 church -- not with the church but just problems in 5 schools and the University of Albuquerque. There 6 were other responsibilities. You're never without a 7 full plate of responsibilities that you have to 8 attend to at any one time. 9 I would not use that as an excuse to fail 10 to attend to one specific area, but you ask what 11 other things may have been going on. There's always 12 a lot happening in your responsibilities. 13 Q. At this point in time, you knew that 14 Father Hunt was an expert or at least trained 15 somewhat in this area. Did you contact him and 16 discuss this matter with him? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. And you don't -- never mind. Did you ever 19 take any action against Father Lynn because of the 20 sexual allegations in Mora? 21 A. I never took any action against Father 22 Lynn regarding the concerns about sexual activity in 23 Mora. Perhaps it's just our interpretation of the 24 word "allegation." 25 Q. You did seem to be -- you seem to be CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1306 1 placing some significance -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- on the distinction between specific 4 allegations and general language as it's contained in 5 Exhibit 76? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. But isn't it true at this point in time in 8 the church itself, this subject was difficult to 9 speak about in very graphic language, as you've 10 already indicated? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. So didn't you get the point of this 13 letter, that there's some sexual problem here? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Without her coming out 16 and saying it? Didn't you have an idea? 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 18 Speculation. The point, the letter speaks for 19 itself. Whatever the point of the letter is is the 20 point of the letter. Your interpretation of the 21 point of the letter may be much different than 22 another reader of the letter. 23 Identify a point. Explain what your point 24 is, and he can answer the question. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you understand the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1307 1 question? 2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: You're asking him to 3 assume what the point of the letter is. 4 MR. TINKLER: No, I'm asking him, does he 5 -- 6 Q. Well, what's your understanding of the 7 letter? 8 MS. KENNEDY: Now, as he sits here in 9 1994? 10 MR. TINKLER: Right now. 11 THE WITNESS: Let me just read her words. 12 This is not my words but her words. She says, "I am 13 writing due to my knowledge of the long-term, 14 damaging effects of adults acting out their sexual 15 distress on young people." She doesn't describe 16 "sexual distress" or "acting out." 17 "In any private individual, such actions 18 are inappropriate." The word "inappropriate" is a 19 very light term, uncalled for. It doesn't say -- 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) "Too familiar with 21 boys"? 22 A. It doesn't say -- "inappropriate" is not 23 condemnatory language. 24 Q. Neither is "too familiar with boys," is 25 it? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1308 1 A. That's right, but this is her word here 2 that she's using. "In any private individual, such 3 actions are inappropriate," but because of the 4 position of a priest, and that's what she goes into, 5 that this could become scandalous because of his 6 position to uphold moral values. 7 You're asking me my interpretation of the 8 letter at this time. She is referring, in my mind, 9 to actions that may be considered too familiar with 10 children is what she's referring to specifically. 11 Q. Which, as we know, is the language that 12 the church has used to describe sexual abuse of 13 children; is that correct? 14 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. I am 15 going to object. That is a mischaracterization if 16 you are saying that that's his prior testimony. 17 MR. BENNETT: He can answer the question. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The testimony is that 19 parishioners have -- 20 MR. TINKLER: I didn't ask him anything 21 about prior testimony. Listen to the question. I 22 asked him, isn't that true that that's the language 23 the church used to describe sexual abuse of children. 24 THE WITNESS: Our church used language 25 which was not descriptive. What particular CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1309 1 expression, what she had in mind, I don't know. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In 1981, you were aware 12 that it was wrong, morally wrong, to be too familiar 13 with boys for an adult; isn't that correct? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It seems 15 you may be using -- the words "too familiar" is 16 subject -- 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Okay, to sexually abuse 18 a boy, did you know that was wrong, morally wrong? 19 A. Oh, yes, sexual abuse is morally wrong. 20 Q. And you knew that in 1981? 21 A. Sexual abuse is morally wrong. 22 Q. And by 1981, in the summer, you had been 23 alerted to the fact that priests do sexually abuse 24 boys, or it happens; correct? 25 A. Yes. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1310 1 Q. So why didn't you take action immediately 2 upon receiving this letter to remove Father Lynn from 3 service? 4 A. I can't express a reason why now, what was 5 causing my action at that time. We presented it to 6 the Personnel Board for review with this person, and 7 that's where it went. 8 Q. Did the Personnel Board, to your 9 knowledge, recommend that you take any kind of action 10 against Father Lynn as a result of these allegations? 11 A. I don't recall any specific. I think if 12 they had recommended an action to be taken, it would 13 have been taken; so I don't recall it happening. 14 (Exhibit 78 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm going to hand you 17 what's marked as Exhibit 78, which is your letter 18 dated December 31, 1981, to Father Lynn. Would you 19 please review that. 20 A. (Witness referred to document.) 21 Q. Have you reviewed that exhibit? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Do you recall writing that letter? 24 A. I don't recall it, but it's my letter. 25 Q. What is the gist of the letter? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1311 1 A. The letter is a letter to Father Clive 2 Lynn, informing him that he is ceasing his ministry 3 at St. Gertrude's in Mora and is being assigned to 4 St. Joseph's parish in Raton, effective January 15th 5 of the next year, 1982. 6 Q. Do you recall why you made the decision in 7 December of 1981 to transfer Father Lynn to another 8 parish? 9 A. I can't recall all the details. For one 10 thing, the parish became opened. The present pastor 11 at that time, Father Albert Podvin, had asked to come 12 closer to the city, to his sister. I can recall 13 that. And it was an opportunity then to reassign 14 Father Clive Lynn to a community where there were two 15 parishes present in the city. We had two Catholic 16 parishes in Raton, St. Joseph's where he went, and 17 St. Patrick's, which is just across town. 18 Q. Is it your belief that the allegations 19 against Father Lynn formed no basis for the decision 20 to transfer him to the Raton parish? 21 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 22 answered, in January. 23 THE WITNESS: I think the rationale for 24 transfer was both the length of time he had been in 25 Mora, together with the various complaints of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1312 1 parishioners regarding his own manner. 2 (Exhibit 79 was marked for 3 identification.) 4 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 5 as Deposition Exhibit 79, which is a letter dated 6 February 9, 1982, and this is all that's contained in 7 the Father Lynn file from this letter. It's one 8 page, and it's unsigned, and there's nothing else in 9 the file. Could you please review that. 10 A. (Witness referred to document.) 11 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 79? 12 A. Yes, sir, I have. 13 Q. Do you recall seeing this document in 14 1982? 15 A. No, sir, I do not recall seeing it. 16 Q. If this document is in Father Lynn's file, 17 isn't it true, it would have had to have passed 18 through your hands to be placed in the file? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Do you recall in February of 1982 having 21 any concerns about Father Lynn's possible sexual 22 problems when you had received a letter such as this? 23 A. I don't recall what exactly was in my mind 24 at that time. She mentions three areas of concern -- 25 I should say "she" -- I shouldn't say "she" because CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1313 1 there's no signature; I don't know who wrote this 2 letter, but it's dated February 9th, which is about 3 three weeks after Father Lynn went to this new 4 parish. And the person indicates drinking problem or 5 a "possible drinking problem," "possible homosexual 6 tendency," and "odd behavior," and she lists 7 different things underneath each one. 8 Q. And the things she lists under "possible 9 homosexual tendency" are some details about boys 10 having sexual advances made upon them by Father Lynn; 11 isn't that correct? 12 A. Yes, the author of the letter does -- I 13 don't have a signature. Do you have a page? You 14 mentioned "she" also. 15 Q. I mentioned "she." It was a mistake. 16 This is the only page. 17 A. This is the only page. I would tend to 18 believe that there was no signature on this letter. 19 Yes, the author of the letter includes 20 some possibilities, that whatever the author had 21 observed or had at least alleged to have come to the 22 knowledge of. 23 Q. Do you recall if you took any action as a 24 result of this letter? 25 A. No, sir, I do not recall the action. It CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1314 1 certainly would be a concern for me, even though it 2 was unsigned. 3 Q. Who is Dr. Van Den Heuvel? 4 A. Dr. Van Den Heuvel is a psychologist with 5 his office here in Albuquerque. 6 Q. Had you referred priests to him before? 7 A. I had. 8 MS. KENNEDY: Before what? 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Before March of 1982? 10 A. I don't recall the dates, but I have 11 referred priests to Dr. Van Den Heuvel. 12 Q. Do you recall after receiving Exhibit 79 13 contacting Father Lynn and confronting him about the 14 allegations in that exhibit? 15 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. Calls 16 for speculation on the part of the witness who's 17 already testified he has no recollection of receiving 18 this Exhibit 79. 19 MR. TINKLER: No, but he's also testified 20 that it had to have been received and placed in the 21 file by him at that time. 22 MS. KENNEDY: My objection stands. 23 THE WITNESS: I do not recall any meeting 24 with him. 25 (Exhibit 80 was marked for CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1315 1 identification.) 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 3 as Exhibit 80 and ask you to review that. It's a 4 letter from you to Clive Lynn, dated March 19, 1982. 5 A. (Witness referred to document.) 6 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 80? 7 A. Yes, I have. 8 Q. Do you recall sending that letter to Clive 9 Lynn? 10 A. I don't recall this specifically, but I do 11 recall sending a letter to him with some specifics. 12 Q. With some specifics similar to these 13 specifics, referring him to a psychologist? 14 A. That and the reference to his former 15 parish, that he was not to return there. 16 Q. Do you recall directing him to see Dr. Van 17 Den Heuvel? 18 A. Yes, sir. That is my own recommendation. 19 Q. It appears as of March 19, 1982, he had 20 not followed through on your directions; is that 21 correct? 22 A. I don't know. I was simply reemphasizing 23 for him what directions I had given him during his 24 visit on March 5th. And I had instructed him to make 25 contact with this psychologist, and to establish a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1316 1 meeting time with him and begin therapy that way, 2 going through an evaluation. 3 Q. Was this letter sent because of the sexual 4 allegations against Father Lynn? 5 A. I think I was asking him to see him for 6 his wholeness, the whole person. 7 Q. Including that? 8 A. Perhaps including that as well, but 9 concerning his own mannerisms with people, 10 interpersonal relationships, which always seemed to 11 be, certainly when he was in Mora, very difficult 12 with people. 13 Q. You seem somewhat hesitant to include the 14 sexual allegations in the basis for this referral. 15 Is that because you're not sure or -- 16 A. No, sir, I would have instructed him to 17 see the doctor for all of the allegations or all of 18 the needs that he seemed to have expressed or 19 indicated in his behavior. 20 Q. And in the last paragraph when you say, 21 "I've been praying very hard for you, Father Lynn, 22 that peace can be restored to your own heart, and 23 that God can guide you in your ministry to your 24 people, especially during this Lenten Season," was it 25 the whole of the allegations against Father Lynn that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1317 1 caused you, I guess, to have the opinion that peace 2 was not in his heart? 3 A. There was a specific incident. He 4 apparently had been visiting his former parish, and 5 the new pastor was there, and after whatever 6 discussion they had, the new pastor asked him to 7 leave, and he was refusing to, is what I understand, 8 and pushing began to happen. 9 This was brought to my attention by the 10 pastor of Mora at the time, and I invited both of 11 them to my home to meet with me and addressed that 12 issue specifically with them, and it was that to 13 which I was referring when I talked about peace. 14 Q. Did Father Lynn keep his appointment or 15 make an appointment with Dr. Van Den Heuvel? 16 A. I can't really recollect whether he went 17 through an evaluation or not at that time. I just -- 18 I can't recall anything from him or from the doctor. 19 Q. I'll represent to you that the file 20 contains no further mention about Van Den Heusal, nor 21 a reply to this letter. Do you have any independent 22 knowledge that would be anywhere other than in this 23 file that he did see Dr. Van Den Heusal? 24 A. No, sir. My own memory just doesn't serve 25 me that way. I would have expected something in the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1318 1 file or from Doctor, perhaps the doctor himself may 2 have some information. 3 Q. Was the priest that you're referring to at 4 the Mora parish, was it ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was it that he struck 7 Father Lynn did? 8 A. I don't believe he struck him, but that he 9 was in the act of trying to strike him, threatening 10 that. 11 Q. And as of the date that this letter was 12 written, Exhibit 80, March 19, had Father Lynn 13 actually taken over the parish in Raton? 14 A. I have to assume so. The letter of 15 appointment, I believe, was January 15th, I believe 16 it indicated of that year. 17 Q. Prior to January 15, 1982, did you or 18 anyone on your behalf advise the parishioners in 19 Raton that Father Lynn was going to be coming to 20 their parish and that he had sexual allegations made 21 against him from various people in the previous 22 parish? 23 A. The announcement was made to them that 24 Father Clive Lynn would be their new pastor. That is 25 normally done by the outgoing pastor. We did not CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1319 1 instruct the pastor, to the best of my recollection, 2 to make any comments regarding his personal life in 3 any way. 4 Q. So the answer is no? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you at any point in time subsequent to 7 January 15, 1982, and prior to 1984, in that time 8 frame, ever warn the parishioners in Raton that 9 Father Lynn had had sexual allegations made against 10 him? 11 A. No, sir. And, again, the word 12 "allegation" is different from the word "concerns." 13 Q. What is it you're referring to, sexual 14 concerns? Are you saying only sexual concerns had 15 occurred? 16 A. That's how I interpret those statements. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1320 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) On Exhibit 79, dated 17 February 9, 1982, the author states, "An active 18 church participant boy informed another boy that 19 Father Lynn had 20 21 22 23 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The document speaks for 25 itself. If you have a question, the document is in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1321 1 front of us. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Isn't that an 3 allegation? Is that an allegation? 4 A. Sir, it is an allegation. It's an 5 unsigned, unresponsible allegation. No one is 6 assuming responsibility for the allegation that 7 they're writing. 8 Q. And within three weeks, four weeks of that 9 letter, you had directed that Father Lynn go to 10 counseling? 11 A. That's right. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1322 1 2 3 (Exhibit 81 was marked for 4 identification.) 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Exhibit 81, I'm going to 6 hand to you, which is to you. It's a letter signed 7 by numerous priests within this diocese, dated March 8 29, 1982. I'd like you to review that document. 9 A. (Witness referred to document.) 10 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 81? 11 A. Yes, sir, I have. 12 Q. Do you remember that document? 13 A. I remember the concern. I don't recall 14 the document, but I do remember the concern. 15 Q. And do you remember that a group of 16 priests had contacted you, whether it be through this 17 document or directly, about placing Father Lynn in 18 psychiatric and/or psychological care at an 19 institution? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And that they had asked you -- they had 22 hoped you would follow their recommendations, but, in 23 any event, they were wanting you to give a personal 24 response to these recommendations after the Mass of 25 -- I can't read it. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1323 1 A. The Chrism. 2 Q. -- the Chrism next week? 3 A. I remember their concern, yes. 4 Q. What did you do when you received Exhibit 5 81 -- 6 MS. KENNEDY: We'll object. Calls for -- 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) -- with respect to the 8 request in Exhibit 81? 9 A. I met with the group of priests who had 10 expressed a desire to meet with me to discuss their 11 letter. We did meet, as they had recommended, after 12 the Chrism Mass the following week, and we went 13 through each of these points of their concern. 14 Q. And did you take any action as a result of 15 their concern against Father Lynn? 16 A. I think the action that they were asking, 17 they were asking about canonical warnings being 18 issued to him about violations of the confessional 19 seal, mismanagement of funds or properties, assaults 20 on a priest, etc. I had already consulted -- not 21 consulted but confronted Father Lynn regarding each 22 of those areas, as I have indicated. 23 I appreciated their comment that they were 24 in agreement with the measures that I had taken thus 25 far in dealing with this conflict instigated by CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1324 1 Father Lynn, given the past history and the people of 2 God. 3 Their recommendation for psychiatric 4 treatment, I indicated to them that I had in fact 5 referred him to Dr. Joseph Van Den Heuvel for 6 psychiatric treatment, certainly for, to begin with, 7 the evaluation from him. Apparently, at this time I 8 had not yet received any reference from the 9 psychiatrist or the psychologist regarding his 10 meeting with Father. 11 Those were the two things that they were 12 asking me to do. 13 Q. Did you make sure that he saw Dr. Van Den 14 Heusal? 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's Van Den Heuvel. 16 MR. TINKLER: Van Den Heuvel. Excuse me. 17 THE WITNESS: First was the verbal mandate 18 to him, and then a follow-up letter reminding him of 19 that to make certain that he would follow that up. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you know if he ever 21 went to see Dr. Van Den Heuvel? 22 A. I can't recall whether he went to see him 23 or went to see him for an evaluation or went to see 24 him for evaluation plus follow-up visits. I just 25 don't recall whether he was one of the members who CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1325 1 went to visit with him. 2 Q. If Dr. Van Den Heuvel had performed an 3 evaluation of Father Lynn, that would have been 4 placed in his file; isn't that correct? 5 A. If he would have sent me one. 6 Q. Right, if he had sent you one? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you recall ever talking to Dr. Van Den 9 Heuvel about Father Lynn? 10 A. No, I don't recall speaking about him 11 specifically. 12 Q. Is it fair to say that Father Lynn was not 13 placed in residential psychiatric care at an 14 institution? 15 A. Not at this time. 16 Q. And is it fair to say that he was 17 permitted to retain all of his faculties at the Raton 18 parish during this period of time? 19 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: What period of time? 20 MR. TINKLER: March 1982 forward. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, he was. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall receiving 23 complaints from the parishioners at Raton? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 (Exhibit 82 was marked for CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1326 1 identification.) 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 3 as Deposition Exhibit 82, which is a letter from 4 to yourself, dated September 10, 1982, 5 and I'd like you to review that document. 6 A. (Witness referred to document.) 7 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 82? 8 A. Yes, sir, I have. 9 Q. Do you recall receiving that letter from 10 11 A. No, sir, I don't recall it in particular. 12 Q. Do you recall this type of complaint being 13 voiced by the Raton community -- parish? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Do you recall doing anything about that? 16 A. Confronting the individual. 17 Q. Father Lynn? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So when you confronted Father Lynn about 20 these complaints, did you ask him if he had been to 21 see Dr. Van Den Heuvel yet? 22 A. I don't recall whether I asked him whether 23 he went to see Dr. Van Den Heuvel or not. 24 Q. Do you recall the situation getting worse 25 than as described in Exhibit 82, the situation in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1327 1 Raton? 2 A. Others being concerned other than this one 3 lady. 4 (Exhibit 83 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 7 as Deposition Exhibit 83, which is an another letter 8 from dated September 21, 1982. 9 A. And that was September -- 10 MS. KENNEDY: 10th. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall receiving 12 Exhibit 83? 13 A. Not in particular, sir, no. 14 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of 15 Exhibit 83? 16 A. It contains the same concerns about his 17 mannerisms and the way he was proceeding. 18 Q. Do you recall hearing that he had called 19 a "devil" because she had started a 20 petition drive? 21 A. No, I don't recall that. 22 Q. Do you recall him calling a special 23 meeting of the Sacred Heart Society to try and 24 convince them to dissolve the society because 25 was in the society? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1328 1 A. No, I was not informed of that. 2 Q. Other than this letter? 3 A. Other than this letter. 4 Q. Do you recall she suggested that you meet 5 -- I believe she suggested that she would like -- a 6 group would like to meet with you? 7 A. Yes, she mentions that. 8 Q. Did you do that? 9 A. I don't recall if we met. I think I may 10 have met with some group. I'm not certain whether it 11 was at my offices or elsewhere. 12 Q. After this letter, Exhibit 83, did you 13 take any action with respect to Father Lynn's 14 ministry in Raton? 15 A. Other than to speak with him regarding the 16 complaints, no other action. 17 Q. Do you remember speaking with him? 18 A. Not in particular, sir. 19 Q. You just think it would have been your 20 practice to do so? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Does the fact that Exhibit 83 does not 23 have the word "Personnel Board" written across it 24 mean that this matter was not discussed with the 25 Personnel Board? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1329 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. I had noticed on some other documents that 3 that was written on there by you. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is there any routine to that? 6 A. Oftentimes, when I am dictating a letter 7 to my secretary, I'll simply direct her to do so. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I would propose a break 9 at this time. We've gone an hour and 15 minutes. 10 (A recess was taken.) 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, Exhibit 83, 12 after you received that, I believe you indicated you 13 believe you met with a group; is that correct? 14 A. I stated that I have recollection of 15 meeting with a group. I don't know if it was this 16 particular request or one at a later date, but I do 17 recall meeting with a group at some time, at some 18 point in this. 19 Q. Do you recall meeting with Clive Lynn, 20 let's say, in the fall of 1982 regarding the numerous 21 complaints that you had received? 22 A. No, sir. I just don't have any 23 recollection. I was just trying to think of any 24 response to this, but I don't have a recollection of 25 a meeting with him. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1330 1 Q. Do you recall if you'd met with Father 2 Lynn in early, let's say in the first six months of 3 1983? 4 A. No, I don't. I'm trying to fix something 5 in 1983 that I can look around, but I just have no 6 recollection of that, no. 7 Q. Without regard to the date, do you recall 8 ever meeting with Father Lynn over the issues raised 9 in Exhibit 83? 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: What are those issues? 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, the treatment, I 12 think. 13 A. Of his language and reaction -- 14 Q. Language and treatment of the 15 parishioners. 16 A. I have a recollection of having spoken to 17 him about his language with the people, his 18 mannerisms, which apparently were offensive to them, 19 words used that could be interpreted as threats, 20 calling a person "devilish" or whatever. I do recall 21 addressing that issue at some point. 22 Q. When you confronted him on those kinds of 23 issues, would he deny those issues, as well, or those 24 facts? 25 A. To the best of my recollection, I don't CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1331 1 believe he was denying that he had done such things 2 as strongly encouraging everyone to come forward in 3 church, that they should not be sitting in back 4 because, otherwise, they weren't really participating 5 in the Mass. 6 I think he admitted the fact, but he was 7 trying to justify that this was a good thing. It's 8 true, it's nice to have all parishioners up front. 9 How you invite them to do that is something else. I 10 think that his mannerism in doing that probably 11 lacked a lot to be desired. But we went over those 12 complaints that the people had indicated. 13 Q. Do you recall that you also dealt with or 14 confronted Father Lynn about similar complaints in 15 Mora? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And did it cross your mind that maybe he 18 wasn't suited for the priesthood, since every parish, 19 at least for the last few years, was nothing but 20 complaints? 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 22 Mischaracterizes the evidence. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Was full of complaints? 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Also mischaracterizes 25 the evidence. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1332 1 THE WITNESS: I never could question 2 whether he was suitable for priesthood. It was 3 apparent from complaints that he certainly was, on 4 occasion, offensive to people. On other occasions, 5 he must have been very agreeable to people. So I did 6 not characterize him as unsuitable. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did the sexual 8 allegations that were made in Mora and then shortly 9 after he came to Raton, did those raise the question 10 of his suitability in your mind? 11 A. Again, as I mentioned, I hadn't questioned 12 the suitability of himself for priesthood one way or 13 the other, and that would include all of the comments 14 that had been made by these folks in writing. 15 Q. Archbishop, his file, his personnel file, 16 contains no documents indicating that he ever saw the 17 psychologist that you felt in March of 1982 was 18 important for him to see. 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Do you have an independent recollection of 21 him ever -- and I'm talking about, let's say, between 22 that March 19, 1982, and, let's say, fall of 1984 -- 23 ever seeking counseling for the various issues that 24 you had hoped he would seek counseling for? 25 A. I do not have any other recollection CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1333 1 outside of what we have discussed here. My meeting 2 with him ordering him to see Dr. Joseph Van Den 3 Heuvel, and then following that subsequently with a 4 letter that would clarify once again in writing that 5 obligation, but I don't have any recollection apart 6 from that. 7 Q. As I recall, one of your concerns at that 8 time, in addition to the sexual allegations, was his 9 inability to control his anger; wasn't that a 10 problem? 11 A. Anger was a concern. 12 Q. And I believe in Exhibit 82, 13 some less than six months later, points out in 14 paragraph four, that "His temper is so close at hand 15 that he wouldn't listen to anything that anyone tries 16 to say or explain to him," and then she goes on. 17 Do you recall whether or not you started 18 to be concerned in September of 1982 as to whether he 19 should go to counseling, or if he had ever been to 20 counseling? 21 A. It may very well be, since I cannot recall 22 -- it may very well be that he was in fact attending 23 counseling at that time. I do not have any 24 recollection. That's a possibility. 25 Q. If, in fact, he had not been attending CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1334 1 counseling as of September 1982, and you were aware 2 of it at the time, would this type of letter have 3 concerned you, Exhibit 82 and 83? 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 5 Speculation. 6 THE WITNESS: I think the letters 7 certainly brought concern to me simply on their own 8 because they were from parishioners, obviously, or, 9 hopefully, good people. They cared enough to write. 10 So they did bring me concern. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you ever recall a 12 period of time when the complaints stopped in Raton? 13 A. I don't have a recollection of how 14 frequently complaints would come in or how 15 consistently, or if there was indeed a long period of 16 time in which there was no complaints. I don't 17 recall that interim. 18 Q. Nevertheless, after you received Exhibit 19 83, you took no action to remove -- 20 A. 82? 21 Q. 83 is the next one. It's a later date -- 22 you took no action to remove Father Lynn from Raton, 23 did you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you remove any of his faculties? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1335 1 A. No. 2 Q. Given the number of priests within the 3 diocese at that time, in 1982, would you say that the 4 complaints made against Father Lynn by parishioners 5 and priests were significantly higher than any other 6 parish complaints you were receiving? 7 MS. KENNEDY: Higher? 8 Q. Higher, number of complaints. 9 A. I'm so focused in on just this particular 10 case, it's hard to bring to my mind anyone else, but 11 I would say, it could very well be the case or the 12 individual with the highest complaints, but I could 13 not swear to that. 14 (Exhibit 84 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 17 as Exhibit 84, which is a letter dated June 23, 1983, 18 from Would you please review 19 that. 20 A. (Witness referred to document.) 21 Q. Do you recall receiving Exhibit 84? 22 A. Not really, no. 23 Q. Do you recall the subject matter of 24 Exhibit 84? 25 A. Yes, just a vague recollection of someone CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1336 1 complaining about a wedding that had occurred. 2 Q. And him referring to the wedding party 3 during the wedding as a "pagan" wedding, or stating 4 that, "The laws of the church were that you were 5 permitted to attend 'pagan' weddings, but not ones 6 such as" -- this, saying that it in front of the 7 congregation? 8 (A discussion was held off the record.) 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, with respect 10 to Exhibit 84, do you recall -- I know you don't 11 recall this specific letter, but do you recall 12 learning that Father Lynn had photographs of himself 13 hanging on the church walls? 14 A. No, sir, I didn't recall that, nor did I 15 ever notice them when I visited St. Joseph's church. 16 Q. If that were the case, is that 17 appropriate? 18 A. Not inside the church. Frequently, they 19 will have a picture of the Holy Father, even the 20 Archbishop, in the sacristy, and sometimes the pastor 21 will be there; or in one of the classrooms, if they 22 have instruction classrooms, they may have a picture 23 of the pastor. 24 Q. But not on the walls within the sanctuary? 25 A. Not in the church normally, no. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1337 1 Q. Did you find it strange that he 2 partitioned off part of the church pews so that he 3 could control where people sat? 4 A. I would find that sort of action strange, 5 excessive. As I mentioned earlier, to encourage 6 people to come forward is fine. It's a proper 7 thing. To take that type of action seems excessive. 8 Q. Do you know, did you take any action as a 9 result of any of the information you received in 10 Exhibit 84? 11 A. I can't recall the specific action taken. 12 Q. Did Father Lynn remain as pastor in Raton 13 during the year 1983? 14 A. Yes, sir, he did. 15 Q. Do you recall talking to Father Lynn about 16 the allegations contained in Exhibit 84? 17 A. No, sir, I do not recall. 18 (Exhibit 85 was marked for 19 identification.) 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's going 21 to be marked as Exhibit 85, which is a letter dated 22 October 6, 1984, from "A very concerned Parishioner 23 of St. Joseph Parish in Raton, New Mexico." I 24 believe you've had an opportunity to review that in 25 the last few minutes; is that correct? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1338 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Do you recall receiving this letter? 3 A. Not this particular letter, no. 4 Q. Do you recall receiving this allegation or 5 hearing this allegation in October of 1984? 6 A. There were several letters, if I recall, 7 couple of letters that came in during 1984. I don't 8 recall specifically what they contained. They were 9 certainly expressing concern about Father Clive Lynn. 10 Q. And they were expressing concern about 11 Father Clive Lynn and his attraction to young boys; 12 isn't that correct? 13 A. This one contains that as part of the 14 letter, yes. 15 Q. Do you recall becoming concerned again 16 about sexual allegations with Father Lynn when you 17 received this letter or when you heard about this? 18 A. I don't recall it, but I would have been 19 concerned. 20 Q. Did you do anything to remove Father Lynn 21 from the parish? 22 A. No, he was not removed. 23 Q. Was anything done? Was he even contacted? 24 A. I'm just trying to recall some dates or 25 time periods. I don't recall reacting to this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1339 1 particular letter with any action that I can recall 2 at this time. 3 Q. In the third paragraph from the bottom on 4 page 1, the author writes, "Father Lynn is a very 5 sick man, and I am very sorry for him. I only pray 6 that he will get help very soon." Do you recall 7 directing Father Lynn to get any help during this 8 time period? 9 A. No, I do not recall that. 10 Q. Do you recall even checking to see if 11 Father Lynn ever got any help? 12 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. 13 Q. Was it appropriate, if true, that he was 14 taking boys, young boys, "on trips out of town, 15 buying them tapes, watches, clothes," and giving them 16 money? Is that appropriate behavior for a priest? 17 A. No, sir. 18 (Exhibit 86 was marked for 19 identification.) 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 21 as Exhibit 86. It's a letter dated October 24, 1984, 22 from -- I can't read the last name, to 23 yourself. And you've had an opportunity to review 24 that letter as well; isn't that correct? 25 A. If I may, I think I can translate that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1340 1 It's . 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. The question, sir? 4 Q. You've had an opportunity to review that 5 letter? 6 A. Yes, just a few moments ago. 7 Q. And do you recall this incident? 8 A. No, I do not recall the concerns that he 9 expressed. 10 Q. And as you read that letter, the concerns 11 that he expressed are that Father Lynn took money 12 from the church; is that correct? 13 A. The way I had read it, these people must 14 belong to some organizations within the church, and 15 prior to the arrival of Father Lynn, that they had 16 kept the moneys independent themselves, apart from 17 church records, and that Father was insisting that 18 the moneys be brought into the church fund. 19 Q. And they're also complaining that he 20 withdrew the funds from the bank when he was not an 21 authorized signature on the account; isn't that 22 correct? 23 A. It indicates, his statement is that Father 24 Lynn and a Richard Newman -- I don't know who that is 25 -- "had no right to that money." I do not recall CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1341 1 the dispute between the organization and the rights 2 that anyone had. It says, "Beatrice Cordova and I 3 are the rightful signature on the bank card." 4 Q. And it also mentions that a year and a 5 half previous to that, Father Lynn did the same thing 6 with the bingo account; is that correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. I may also add that you would 8 like to have -- all of these separate accounts that 9 are in parishes should be kept within a general 10 ledger, because we've had experiences in the past 11 where separate bingo accounts or other accounts 12 simply disappeared with time, and it's good to keep 13 them within the ledger of the church with other 14 signatures besides the pastor to keep accounting 15 proper. 16 Q. The letter also mentions that over 120 17 families have left the parish since Father Lynn 18 arrived. Is that of concern? 19 A. That would be of concern, certainly. 20 Q. Did you take any action with respect to 21 Father Lynn after receiving this letter? 22 A. I do not recall the specific action I may 23 have taken. 24 Q. Do you recall taking any action? 25 A. I do not recall that. I would assume I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1342 1 would have called him regarding the statements in the 2 letter. 3 Q. Would you agree that the letters raise 4 additional concerns about Father Lynn? 5 A. Additional in which way? Excuse me. 6 Q. Additional to the ones we've already been 7 through today. 8 A. Additional inasmuch as it refers to the 9 bank accounts, yes. 10 (Exhibit 87 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 13 as Exhibit 87. It is a letter from 14 dated November 7, 1984, to yourself. Would 15 you read that, please. 16 A. (Witness referred to document.) 17 Q. Do you recall receiving Exhibit 87 in 18 1984? 19 A. I do not recall the exhibit, but I recall 20 the woman's name and receiving communication from 21 her. 22 Q. Do you recall receiving communication from 23 her regarding Father Lynn's inappropriate behavior 24 with young boys? 25 A. I recall her concern about Father Lynn in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1343 1 general. 2 Q. And you don't recall it having to do with 3 the way he -- the way the parishioners were talking 4 about his behavior regarding young men? 5 A. Excuse me. I meant to say about his total 6 general behavior. I should have used the word 7 "total" perhaps rather than "general." 8 Q. Do you recall telling you 9 that Father Lynn had been threatening her? 10 A. No, I don't recall that. She mentions his 11 coming to the place of the employment and confronting 12 her. 13 Q. Do you recall taking any action as a 14 result of this letter, Exhibit 87? 15 A. I believe it was as a result of this 16 letter, or perhaps as a result of general concern 17 that had been voiced to me, but I did ask -- in fact, 18 the chairman, I believe he was the chairman of our 19 Personnel Board at that time, Father Johnny Lee 20 Chavez -- to go to Raton and to meet with this lady 21 and with others who may have had concerns and to find 22 out what their concerns were. 23 Q. Why didn't you immediately pull Father 24 Lynn from service in this parish? 25 A. Looking at this letter, and I see serious CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1344 1 concerns on the part of this woman, her desire is to 2 be able to meet with us and to try to bring this to a 3 complete settlement. She is saying that we should 4 have an investigation to try to clear up the 5 situation. "I only pray that those in authority will 6 investigate the allegations and if they are true that 7 help will be given Father Lynn. If it is not true 8 then his name should be cleared." 9 So I felt I would respond to the request 10 for personal opportunity to speak with someone in 11 authority. 12 Q. You had already at this point in time, 13 just a month before that, received another letter 14 from another parishioner -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- talking about Father Lynn and his 17 inappropriate behavior with young boys; correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And the year before, you had also received 20 a letter, and the year before that you had received a 21 letter, and you had received a letter from Mora from 22 a mental health evaluator, and a complaining young 23 man who was going to the priesthood in Mora. So by 24 November of '84, did you start to think, maybe 25 there's something to these allegations? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1345 1 A. Certainly, I thought that there was 2 something to their allegations, because they were 3 upset, they were hurting people, I was concerned. 4 Q. In 1981, you got an allegation regarding 5 Father Sigler, and you immediately terminated his 6 faculties. Why in 1984 didn't you do the same thing 7 to Father Lynn? 8 A. Sir, as I've mentioned earlier, the 9 allegations against Father Sigler were specific, with 10 people named directly and the families and the boys; 11 so action was taken with this man. 12 The allegations that are included here, 13 again, were expressing their general concern that 14 these trips, as is mentioned here in this letter or 15 the other one -- I've read so many letters, I don't 16 know which one said which. But this lady here is 17 expressing her concern regarding Father's 18 confrontation with her and her own concern for the 19 parish, for the people of the parish, as well as for 20 the pastor of the parish. 21 Q. Then she says on the second page, third 22 paragraph from the bottom, "These are serious 23 allegations and if true could prove to be traumatic 24 for the young boys involved." Did that alert you to 25 the fact that maybe she was talking about young boys CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1346 1 being hurt by Father Lynn? 2 A. I'm sure it would have alerted me to that, 3 and perhaps that and the rest of the letter and the 4 other letters began what I would call our effort to 5 investigate this situation. 6 Q. Did you confront Father Lynn after you 7 received this letter? 8 A. I do not recall a personal confrontation 9 immediately following this letter, but I do recall 10 requesting a visitation, personal visitation, by the 11 chairman of our Personnel Board with this woman. 12 Q. When do you recall that happening? 13 A. I don't have a date in mind, sir. I 14 cannot show you any documentation as to when that 15 happened. 16 Q. Was it within 30 days? 17 A. If I had that type of recollection -- 18 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. Calls 19 for speculation on the part of this witness. He's 20 already told you, Mr. Tinkler, he has no recollection 21 of the date. 22 THE WITNESS: I know that having received 23 this, and apparently I had discussed this with the 24 Personnel Board, even though it doesn't make mention 25 of it, the resolution must have been for, and agreed CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1347 1 to, by the chairman of the Personnel Board to be able 2 to make that visit in my name. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you think that these 4 allegations were not serious enough to warrant you 5 personally visiting the parish to determine what was 6 going on? 7 A. I did make a visit to the parish, and I 8 did meet with these people who were seriously 9 concerned, and I met with them outside of St. 10 Joseph's parish, at the parish of St. Patrick. 11 Q. When was that? 12 A. I can't recall that, but that happened in 13 this whole situation of this time frame right around 14 this period. I can't recall whether it was December 15 or January, but it was a personal visitation to the 16 parish. 17 Q. Or it could have even been as late as the 18 following summer? 19 A. No. 20 Q. No? 21 A. No, no. 22 (Exhibit 88 was marked for 23 identification.) 24 Q. Let me hand you what's marked as Exhibit 25 88. It's a letter from a to you, dated CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1348 1 November 14, 1984. 2 A. The same time frame as the other letter? 3 Q. About a month later -- I'm sorry, a week 4 later. 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The other letter is 6 Exhibit 87, seven days later. 7 THE WITNESS: That's what I figured, the 8 same time frame. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall seeing 10 Exhibit 88? 11 A. Not specifically, sir, no. 12 Q. Do you recall the nature of the 13 allegations being brought to your attention, the ones 14 that are set forth in Exhibit 88? 15 A. I don't recall all of the allegations 16 mentioned here. 17 Q. But this letter, like the other letters 18 we've been talking about -- 19 A. Right. 20 Q. -- came from the personnel file of Father 21 Lynn. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Which would indicate that you saw the 24 letter on or about the date it was received; is that 25 correct? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1349 1 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 2 Q. Don't you think it was inappropriate for 3 Father Lynn to sleep with son in 4 Albuquerque at the State Fair? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And inappropriate to be putting his hands 7 on his knee? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Didn't you wonder about all the rumors she 10 said had been circulating? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Didn't you wonder about the way she was 13 treated by Father Lynn? Didn't that seem 14 inappropriate? 15 A. Yes. That was offensive to her. 16 Q. Did you check into the matter? 17 A. Again, I cannot recall specifically, but 18 the person I had asked to go to Raton to talk to 19 these people, he would be able to meet with them 20 personally and to check into their concerns. 21 Q. I assume you don't recall speaking with 22 Father Lynn about this particular allegation; is that 23 correct? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. That is correct? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1350 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Do you recall ever receiving a report from 3 Father Johnny Lee Chavez? 4 A. I can't recall the details of his report 5 to me, sir, but Father Johnny Lee was a very 6 dependable person, and I can recall him making a 7 report to me, but I just don't recall the details of 8 his report. 9 I can recall that he had met with people 10 up there in Raton to listen to their allegations and 11 their concerns, whatever complaints they had, and he 12 shared those with me, but I can't recall the 13 individual people that he met with or what the nature 14 of their conversations were. I would have to assume 15 that among those that he met with were these people 16 who have written these letters. 17 Q. Do you recall Father Chavez showing you a 18 report from the Human Services Department regarding 19 the allegations against Father Lynn? 20 A. I don't recall the incident, sir, at this 21 moment, but if he was sent a report, he most 22 certainly would have brought that to my attention. 23 (Exhibit 89 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 Q. I hand you what is marked as Deposition CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1351 1 Exhibit 89, which is a letter to Father Johnny Lee 2 Chavez from Jean Clark of the Human Services 3 Department in Raton, dated December 21, 1984. Please 4 review that. 5 A. (Witness referred to document.) 6 Q. Do you recall seeing Exhibit 89 back in 7 December of 1984? 8 A. Once again, I cannot recall the specific 9 referral of the letter to me, but it's written to 10 Father Johnny Lee Chavez, and he would have shared 11 that with me. 12 Q. Didn't you become concerned when the Human 13 Services Department was appealing to your offices to 14 stop the molestation of their children? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What did you do about it? 17 A. I can't give you dates or times. Again, I 18 believe that our action that I had decided to take 19 was that he would in fact be removed from the parish, 20 and we would have to get him residential care. 21 These were serious conclusions that I 22 needed to look at, and I could not ignore this 23 because of Health and Social Services. I can't 24 recall clearly instances, but I believe that this 25 letter then initiated some kind of conversation CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1352 1 between myself and Health and Social Services. 2 Q. Did you immediately restrict Father Lynn's 3 faculties? 4 A. No, sir, apparently I did not. 5 Q. Why not? 6 A. I simply did not. I think that in my mind 7 was the resolution that he was going to be removed 8 from the parish, and I simply did not restrict his 9 faculties at that moment. 10 Q. Was it in your mind that as you waited to 11 restrict his faculties, young boys could be abused 12 further? 13 A. Even though I cannot recall in my own mind 14 at this time, I have not been able to recall much of 15 these details, I would feel that there was indeed a 16 confrontation between myself and Father Lynn 17 regarding this. I don't know what warnings -- I 18 cannot recall what warnings were extended to him. It 19 was probably as a result of this also that I was 20 meeting in Raton with the women that I had mentioned 21 earlier, the family members. 22 Q. Do you remember doing that? 23 A. I remember meeting with them, yes. 24 Q. You don't remember when, though? 25 A. No, I don't remember the dates. I do not. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1353 1 Q. And you don't remember meeting with Father 2 Lynn at all? 3 A. As I mentioned, I cannot recall that. 4 Q. Who was the dean of the deanery at this 5 time? 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: In December of 1984? 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Of this area, in 8 December 1984. 9 A. I don't really know, but I would suggest 10 possibly Father Vidal Martinez from Las Vegas, 11 possibly. 12 Q. The same gentleman that had notified you 13 of complaints regarding Father Lynn several years 14 before? 15 A. When he was in -- at the end of his stay 16 in Mora, yes. 17 Q. Did you contact the dean, whether it was 18 Father Martinez or some other individual, regarding 19 these allegations in December of 1984? 20 A. No. I had chosen to send Father Johnny 21 Lee Chavez on this particular mission rather than the 22 dean. He was chairman of the board. He also was a 23 native of Raton. So I felt maybe he would know some 24 of these people more personally and be able to speak 25 with them. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1354 1 Q. Did you have him speak with Father Lynn? 2 A. No, I don't think that was part of his 3 mission. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) How did you feel you 20 were helping your parishioners and their children by 21 keeping Father Lynn in the parish after you received 22 a letter such as Exhibit 89? 23 A. I do not recall the circumstances that 24 would have kept me from taking immediate action. I 25 believe in my mind it was resolved that he would be CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1355 1 removed from the parish. And even though I cannot 2 recall meeting him personally, I feel certain that 3 there was a personal confrontation and warning to the 4 man about these allegations that have been brought to 5 my attention. 6 Q. Is it fair to say if the record would 7 indicate that you did not remove Father Lynn from the 8 parish at that time, that it was your opinion that it 9 was still safe for him to be in the parish, safe for 10 the parishioners? 11 A. Given the warnings to him personally, the 12 information that in fact allegations were being 13 brought against him, that through this Christmas 14 season that there would no longer be any type of 15 incidences, that he would not in any way be offensive 16 to the people of that parish. 17 Q. Approximately 14 months prior to this, on 18 the complaint of one parishioner, you had an 19 immediate confrontation with Father Smith here in 20 Albuquerque; correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And even though he denied the allegations, 23 within several months you had him removed from 24 office? 25 A. Yes, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1356 1 Q. And that was after one allegation; 2 correct? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. So now in December of 1984, you have 5 numerous allegations that have occurred over the 6 years regarding Father Lynn? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And you still choose not to remove him 9 from office. 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. There's no 11 question. 12 MR. TINKLER: I haven't finished it. 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Well, let's get to it. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Why the distinction 15 between Father Smith and Father Sigler's treatment 16 versus Father Lynn's treatment? 17 A. Your statement was that I chose -- 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Excuse me, Archbishop. 19 If you can answer that. There may be no reason for 20 the distinction. 21 THE WITNESS: I believe that I was secure 22 in my own mind that the man was going to be removed 23 in a reasonable period, just as I had taken action 24 with Father Smith in a reasonable period of time. 25 This was the Christmas season when this particular CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1357 1 letter came, and perhaps that was part of the 2 influence at that time. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Up to this point in 4 time, December 21, 1984, had you yourself or anyone 5 on your behalf warned the children in the parish in 6 Raton that there had been sexual allegations made 7 against Father Lynn? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Isn't it true that yesterday, and I just 10 want to go back over this, when you confronted Father 11 Smith, you indicated in yesterday's testimony that he 12 did admit the allegations? 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Asked and answered as 14 recently as perhaps five minutes ago and certainly 15 yesterday. The record is going to speak for itself. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, is that your 17 memory? 18 A. Would you repeat the question? 19 Q. That Father Smith admitted the 20 allegations? 21 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and 22 answered. 23 THE WITNESS: He had admitted going with 24 the boy on the trip; to the best of my recollection, 25 admitted that there had been indiscretions on his CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1358 1 part, but I don't recall anything beyond that. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Now, when you confronted 3 Father Lynn, I know you don't remember the time, but 4 when you did confront Father Lynn, did he admit the 5 allegations? 6 A. To the best of my recollection, sir, I 7 believe he was in constant denial about most things 8 that I would bring to his attention, whether they 9 regard these particular allegations or the other 10 statements that we have discussed this afternoon 11 regarding inappropriate behavior towards the 12 parishioners by relegating certain seating or 13 removing them from parish organizations, etc. 14 Q. Did that concern you, that he seemed to 15 deny every allegation you were hearing? 16 A. I don't recall to what extent his denial 17 concerned me. 18 Q. Back when he denied the sexual 19 allegations, did you institute a canonical 20 proceeding? 21 A. We do not have a canonical proceeding for 22 that. Investigations had been made by apparently the 23 Health and Social Services, also by Father Johnny Lee 24 Chavez. 25 Q. Had you yourself in December of 1984, did CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1359 1 you have any doubt in your mind that there was 2 substance to the allegations against Father Lynn? 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Are you 4 talking about the allegations -- 5 MR. TINKLER: Sexual allegations. 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Sexual allegations 7 contained in Exhibit 89? 8 MR. TINKLER: To start with. 9 THE WITNESS: Sir, I would trust the 10 statements of the Health -- of the Human Services 11 Department. I felt that that was their job. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Wasn't it your own 13 personal practice to remove individuals that were 14 accused of committing sexual abuse against children, 15 to remove them from the parish immediately? 16 A. It would indeed be the proper thing to do, 17 to remove them for the safety of the children, 18 because that's our particular concern, and I do 19 believe that by this time, that was my intention, to 20 take action on Father Lynn. 21 (Exhibit 90 was marked for 22 identification.) 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Let me hand you a 24 document marked Exhibit 90. This is a letter dated 25 February 28, 1985, from Juan Vigil of the State of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1360 1 New Mexico Human Services Department to yourself. 2 A. (Witness referred to document.) 3 Q. Have you reviewed Exhibit 90? 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: One moment, Mr. 5 Tinkler, not in its entirety. I'm not clear which 90 6 is. 90 appears to be an envelope. I misspoke, we 7 reviewed that in its entirety. 8 THE WITNESS: I think this is the one 9 needs to be stamped. 10 MR. TINKLER: Okay, let's forget the 11 envelope. 12 Q. So you have reviewed Exhibit 90; is that 13 correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Does that refresh your memory that as of 16 February 28, 1985, you had done nothing to remove 17 Father Lynn from -- 18 (A discussion was held off the record.) 19 Q. Archbishop, with respect to Deposition 20 Exhibit 90, does that indicate to you that as of 21 February 28, 1985, you had still not taken any action 22 to remove Father Lynn from his parish in Raton? 23 A. It indicates that Father Lynn had not been 24 removed. I do recall that, as I mentioned earlier 25 before the electricity went off, that pursuant to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1361 1 that letter that had come to Father Johnny Lee Chavez 2 from the Health and Social Services, that there had 3 been some conversations between myself and them. 4 (A discussion was held off the record, 5 and the deposition recessed at 4:15 p.m.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1362 1 John/Jane Does vs. Roman Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, Inc., et al. 2 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 3 If there are any typographical errors to your deposition, 4 indicate them below. 5 PAGE LINE 6 Change to 7 Change to 8 Change to 9 Change to 10 Any other changes to your deposition are to be listed below with a statement as to the reason for such change. 11 PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON FOR CHANGE 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I, ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing pages of my testimony 20 taken on October 5, 1994, as transcribed, and that the same is a true and correct transcript of the 21 testimony given by me in this deposition except for the changes made. 22 23 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 24 Date 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1363 1 IN THE SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 3 Nos. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 CV-93-08930 CV-93-11710 7 CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 JOHN/JANE DOES, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 against 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., 22 a New Mexico Corporation, et al. 23 Defendants. 24 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1364 1 I, DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR No. 63, DO HEREBY 2 CERTIFY that on October 5, 1994, the deposition of 3 Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez was taken before me at 4 the request of, and sealed original thereof retained 5 by: 6 Stephen E. Tinkler Merit Bennett 7 Robert J. Reese Attorneys for Plaintiffs 8 425 Sandoval Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 9 I FURTHER CERTIFY that copies of this 10 certificate have been mailed or delivered to the 11 following counsel and parties not represented by 12 counsel appearing at the taking of the deposition: 13 Karen C. Kennedy 14 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 11648 15 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 16 Arthur O. Beach Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese 17 P.O. Drawer AA Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 18 Peter S. Kierst 19 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 35670 20 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87176-5670 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1365 1 Richard A. Winterbottom Attorney for Defendant Archbishop 2 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 3 Alan K. Konrad 4 Attorney for Defendant Servants of the Paraclete 5 P.O. Box 25687 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 6 Travis R. Collier 7 Attorney for Defendant Lovelace Institutes P.O. Box 1888 8 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 9 Kenneth L. Harrigan Attorney for Defendant Pecos Benedictine 10 Monastery, Sons of the Holy Family P.O. Box 2168 11 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 12 Richard D. Yeomans Attorney for Greek Orthodox Archdiocese 13 4308 Carlisle Boulevard, N.E., Suite 207 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 14 I FURTHER CERTIFY that examination of this 15 transcript and signature of the witness was 16 required by the witness and all parties present. 17 I FURTHER CERTIFY that the cost of the original 18 and one copy of the deposition to Stephen E. Tinkler 19 is $666.05. 20 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I did administer the 21 oath to the witness herein prior to the taking of 22 this deposition, that I did thereafter report in 23 stenographic shorthand the questions and answers set 24 forth herein, and the foregoing is a true and 25 accurate transcript of the proceeding had upon the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 1366 1 taking of this deposition, to the best of my ability. 2 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither employed by 3 nor related to any of the parties or attorneys in 4 this case, and that I have no interest whatsoever in 5 the final disposition of this case in any court. 6 7 DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR, RPR 8 Certified Court Reporter No. 63 License Expires: 12/31/94 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092

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