Volume 5 – Volume 1 of Part 2 Deposition of Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez October 3, 1994 • Volume 1 – January 12, 1994 • Volume 2 – January 13, 1994 • Volume 3 – January 14, 1994 • Volume 4 – January 15, 1994 • Volume 5 – October 3, 1994 • Volume 6 – October 4, 1994 • Volume 7 – October 5, 1994 • Volume 8 – Cctober 6, 1994 https://www.abqjournal.com/news/arch/1archdep3-20.htm 754 1 SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 2 STATE OF NEW MEXICO 3 JOHN/JANE DOES, CAUSE NOS. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 Plaintiffs, CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 against CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE CV-93-08930 ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., CV-93-11710 7 a New Mexico Corporation, et al., CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 Defendants. CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 19 DEPOSITION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 20 Volume V 21 October 3, 1994 22 9:30 a.m. 23 5625 Isleta Boulevard, S.W. 24 Albuquerque, New Mexico 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 755 1 PURSUANT TO THE NEW MEXICO RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE this deposition was: 2 TAKEN BY: STEPHEN E. TINKLER 3 ATTORNEY FOR THE PLAINTIFFS 4 REPORTED BY: DEBORAH O'BINE, RPR, NM CCR #63 5 Cumbre Court Reporting 117 N. Guadalupe 6 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 7 A P P E A R A N C E S 8 For the Plaintiffs: 9 STEPHEN E. TINKLER 10 MERIT BENNETT Attorneys at Law 11 425 Sandoval Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 12 REESE, MATHEY & SCHOFIELD 13 P.O. Box 1060 Green River, Wyoming 82935 14 BY: ROBERT J. REESE, ESQ. 15 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 16 SIMONS, CUDDY & FRIEDMAN P.O. Box 11648 17 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 BY: KAREN C. KENNEDY, ESQ. 18 KELEHER & McLEOD, P.A. 19 P.O. Drawer AA Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 20 BY: ARTHUR O. BEACH, ESQ. 21 EAVES, BARDACKE & BAUGH, P.A. P.O. Box 35670 22 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87176-5680 BY: PETER S. KIERST, ESQ. 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 756 1 For the Defendant Archbishop: 2 STOUT & WINTERBOTTOM 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 BY: RICHARD A. WINTERBOTTOM, ESQ. 4 For the Defendant Servants of the Paraclete: 5 MILLER, STRATVERT, TORGERSON & SCHLENKER, P.A. 6 P.O. Box 25687 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 7 BY: ALAN K. KONRAD, ESQ. 8 For the Defendant Lovelace Institutes: 9 RODEY, DICKASON, SLOAN, AKIN & ROBB, P.A. P.O. Box 1888 10 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 BY: TRAVIS R. COLLIER, ESQ. 11 For the Defendants Pecos Benedictine Monastery, Sons 12 of the Holy Family: 13 MODRALL, SPERLING, ROEHL, HARRIS & SISK, P.A. P.O. Box 2168 14 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-2168 BY: KENNETH L. HARRIGAN, ESQ. 15 For the Defendant Greek Orthodox Archdiocese: 16 GUEBERT & YEOMANS, P.C. 17 4308 Carlisle Boulevard N.E., Suite 207 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 18 BY: RICHARD D. YEOMANS, ESQ. 19 Also Present: 20 JERRY GOFFE 21 I N D E X PAGE 22 EXAMINATION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 23 By Mr. Tinkler 763 24 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE, VOLUME V 984 25 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 985 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 757 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 758 1 EXHIBIT FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 759 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 760 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 761 1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. Your 2 Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen, the following deposition 3 is being videotaped in the presence of Cumbre Court 4 Reporters, by Jerry Goffe of Goffe Photographic 5 Associates, Albuquerque, New Mexico. 6 This deposition is being taken on October 7 3, 1994, at the Cristo Rey Convent, located at 5625 8 Isleta Boulevard, SW, Albuquerque, New Mexico, in the 9 matter of Jane and John Does, Plaintiffs, vs. The 10 Roman Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, 11 Inc., et al., Cases CV-93-02879, and all others filed 12 by Attorneys Merit Bennett and Stephen Tinkler, filed 13 in the Second Judicial District, State of New Mexico, 14 County of Bernalillo. 15 The deponent is Archbishop Robert Sanchez. 16 The time, as indicated on the screen, is 9:31. 17 Counsel will now state their appearances. 18 MR. TINKLER: Stephen Tinkler for 19 Plaintiff John and Jane Does. 20 MR. BENNETT: Merit Bennett for the 21 Plaintiffs. 22 MR. REESE: Bob Reese for the Plaintiffs. 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Richard Winterbottom, 24 the Archbishop. 25 MS. KENNEDY: Karen Kennedy for the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 762 1 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. 2 MR. YEOMANS: Rick Yeomans for the 3 Defendant Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and 4 South America. 5 MR. HARRIGAN: Ken Harrigan for the 6 Defendant Pecos Benedictine Monastery, in Causes 7 5042, 5054, and 7031, and also appearing for 8 Sons of the Holy Family in Causes 5045 and 5052. 9 I want the record to be clear that Sons of 10 the Holy Family intends to attack personal 11 jurisdiction over them by the State of New Mexico, 12 and my representation of them at this deposition is 13 not intended to be a waiver of that defense. 14 And I also want to put on the record that 15 neither they nor I ever received notice of this 16 deposition, but we will proceed, nevertheless, if 17 it's understood that our appearance and participation 18 is not a waiver of personal jurisdiction. 19 MR. KONRAD: Alan Konrad for Servants of 20 the Paraclete. 21 MR. COLLIER: Travis Collier for Lovelace 22 Institutes. 23 MR. BEACH: Arthur Beach, Archdiocese of 24 Santa Fe. 25 MR. KIERST: Peter Kierst on behalf of the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 763 1 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. 2 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, 3 after having been first duly sworn or affirmed under 4 oath, was questioned and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. TINKLER: 7 Q. Archbishop Sanchez, I think in the last 8 deposition -- 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, before we 10 begin let me put -- 11 MR. TINKLER: Do you want to do this? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- on the record -- 13 yeah, why don't I just get this done? 14 Mr. Goffe has stated correctly that this 15 deposition is, first, to cover and include all cases 16 filed by your law firm and Mr. Bennett's law firm 17 that have been filed to date. The notice, the fourth 18 amended notice, did not include two cases recently 19 filed, which we would add to the caption. Those 20 would be 94-07716 and CV-94-07977. 21 Secondly, because this is the continuation 22 of the deposition taken of the Archbishop from 23 January 12, 1994, through January 15, 1994, I have, 24 with the consent of all counsel present, entered an 25 Unopposed Protective Order, or Judge Robert Thompson CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 764 1 did, and that was entered on September 29, 1994, and 2 it incorporates the two protective orders previously 3 entered by Judge Ashby, the first filed on March 26, 4 1993, and the second one filed on January 12, 1994, 5 and I have endorsed copies of both those protective 6 orders and the one entered incorporating those 7 protective orders by Judge Thompson, which I will 8 attach to the deposition as Exhibit 15. Thank you. 9 And if anyone needs -- has not received 10 copies of those, I have extra copies for you. 11 MR. TINKLER: Also, for the record, we had 12 previously sent out requests for production of 13 documents relative to all the priest files, 14 particularly the ones that we have filed claims 15 against, as well as a general request for all priest 16 -- files of priests files who have had pedophilic 17 allegations made against them. 18 This morning Mr. Beach did deliver several 19 priest files to us. I think he delivered the file 20 for John Esquibel, Clive Lynn, Ed Donelan, and 21 Anthony Gallegos. 22 No other files that were set forth in our 23 letter dated September 23, 1994, to Mr. Beach and 24 Miss Kennedy have been delivered. I think the 25 request for production of documents was technically CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 765 1 due yesterday. We had also written to counsel, 2 asking them to try and expedite production of these 3 files so that we could try and cover all matters in 4 this deposition, and we will attempt to do so, and if 5 more files are forthcoming, we will attempt to review 6 those at night and question on those. 7 MR. BEACH: Let me respond briefly to 8 that. In addition, previously we provided you with 9 two additional files, Jason Sigler and Sabine Griego, 10 if I'm not mistaken. So you have those. We didn't 11 give them to you a second time. You already have 12 them. 13 The remainder of the files you asked for, 14 we don't have. We do not have any file on a 15 , on a , or a . In 16 addition, two of the priests you asked for files on, 17 and , are Order priests, 18 and we do not have a file on them either, at least 19 none that we've been able to locate. 20 And so we have produced for you the files 21 on all of the priests that you have asked for in your 22 request for production of documents to which we 23 responded to. 24 MR. TINKLER: How about Roger Martinez? 25 MR. BEACH: Roger Martinez is not a priest CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 766 1 named in the caption of that file, the request. 2 In addition, just for the record, you 3 indicated they were due yesterday. Yesterday was a 4 Sunday. 5 MR. TINKLER: Well, I know that. 6 MR. BEACH: And today is Monday. So I 7 think technically today is the day that they're due. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No requests for 9 production have been served on the Archbishop. We 10 set this deposition, I believe, at least three months 11 ago. It's been pending. We've been as cooperative 12 as we could to produce him in a timely manner and set 13 this up at some considerable expense to many of the 14 parties in this case. 15 I produced him with the idea, as I made 16 clear to both plaintiffs' counsel, that this 17 deposition will include everything that is now 18 pending against the Archbishop and the Archdiocese. 19 If there is some doubt in your mind that 20 because you have been unable to review the materials 21 that are produced, or because there's some claim that 22 you have that in fact the production is inadequate, 23 then I think you ought to consider continuing this 24 deposition until such time as you're fully prepared, 25 because we plan to produce the Archbishop for this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 767 1 week, and we will resist any other efforts to produce 2 him for deposition in the cases that are now filed. 3 And if that's not the case, then let's 4 proceed. If you have some problems with the nature 5 of your discovery to date, and I suggest that those 6 problems cannot possibly be with the Archbishop, then 7 as much as I regret to do this, I don't see any other 8 prospect but continuing the deposition until you're 9 satisfied and ready and prepared to take it. 10 MR. TINKLER: Well, we're prepared to take 11 the deposition. I'm just making a record on what 12 documents we've received and what we haven't 13 received. 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you're prepared to 15 proceed, let's do it. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In the last deposition, 17 you were referred to as "Archbishop" throughout the 18 deposition; is that -- 19 A. Right. 20 Q. -- is that okay with you? 21 A. That's comfortable, certainly. 22 Q. What have you been doing since the last 23 deposition? 24 A. As I indicated in my former deposition, I 25 am spending time in a religious community. I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 768 1 celebrate the Eucharist with the community daily, 2 lead them in other prayer services that we have. I 3 preach to them, and we do have discussions on Sacred 4 Scriptures together. So it's an intensification of 5 our own spirituality. 6 I do a lot of manual work in the grounds 7 that they have. I feel that I need to cooperate with 8 that. So basically my life has been spent as a 9 member of a religious community, not formally as 10 such, but informally they've welcomed me that way. 11 Q. And what is the religious community? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object. We have, 13 pursuant to the protective order, been protected from 14 disclosing the Archbishop's presence, whereabouts, 15 and we'll continue with that assumption in that order 16 that he need not disclose his present place of 17 residence. 18 MR. TINKLER: I don't agree with -- I 19 don't think that's in the order anywhere. 20 MS. KENNEDY: We're not going to answer; 21 so you can move on. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We're not going to 23 answer. You can take it up with the judge. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) The religious community 25 where you're residing, is it affiliated with the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 769 1 Catholic Church? 2 A. Oh, yes, yes, very much so. 3 Q. Is it an order? 4 A. Yes. There are religious -- when we use 5 the word religious community, it's normally another 6 word for religious order, yes. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And you've indicated you celebrate the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 770 1 Eucharist with the members of the community? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you still have all of your faculties? 4 A. I do have the faculties. I have not 5 exercised them in any public manner. For instance, I 6 have not baptized or confirmed and so forth. I have 7 celebrated the Eucharist. 8 Q. So since you've left Santa Fe in March or 9 April of 1993, you've not celebrated public Mass? 10 A. No, not out publicly, no. 11 Q. Has anyone indicated to you within the 12 Church that you're not permitted to do that? 13 A. No, there has been no direct order at all, 14 no. 15 Q. Have you had any discussions with any of 16 your superiors with regards to celebrating Mass? 17 A. No, we haven't really discussed that in 18 particular at all. 19 Q. Who is it that you report to? 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It's 21 vague. It assumes matters not in evidence, and to 22 the extent that it is designed or may reveal the 23 Archbishop's present residence, I'm instructing him 24 not to answer. He can answer without revealing where 25 he is residing. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 771 1 And you can go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: I have not been given a 3 designated individual to whom I would report. 4 Normally, the person that I should report to, if you 5 want to call it an authority over me, would be the 6 Pope's representative in this country. He is called 7 the Pro Nuncio. His name is Archbishop Augustine 8 Cacivillan. And I better spell that for you. It's 9 C-A-C-I-V-I-L-L-A-N. 10 Q. And he's in Washington, D.C.; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Yes. He's the Papal Nuncio there in 13 Washington. 14 Q. Have you had any conversations with any of 15 the representatives of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe 16 other than attorneys since the last deposition? 17 A. Not regarding any of this at all, no. 18 Q. What, if anything, did you do to prepare 19 for the deposition? 20 A. I tried to review the deposition that we 21 had last January. It was quite lengthy, as you well 22 know. I read what I could. And then I met with Mr. 23 Winterbottom, Miss Kennedy, and Mr. Beach, for them 24 to update me as to what cases we were going to be 25 talking about and so forth. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 772 1 Q. Did you review any documents? 2 A. Just the deposition that we went through 3 last January. 4 Q. You didn't review any files that were from 5 the Archdiocese of Santa Fe? 6 A. I didn't have any files, no. 7 Q. I want to go back a little bit. I'll try 8 not to ask you questions that were already asked, but 9 historically, if you could kind of tell me, because 10 it wasn't clear to me from the last deposition, some 11 of your early life, some more details about that 12 before you went into the seminary. Is it correct 13 that you went to the seminary from high school? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And prior to -- do you recall when it was 16 that you decided to be a priest or that you were 17 interested in being a priest? 18 A. The interest began as early as the sixth 19 grade, but like most young men, those are interests 20 in a variety of things, but my interest began at that 21 age. 22 Q. Did you date in high school? 23 A. I was in a public high school for my 24 freshman year, a Catholic high school my sophomore 25 year. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 773 1 but I was very much 2 active with the class and the classmates in all of 3 our activities and pretty much a normal teenager 4 going to high school. 5 Q. What about your junior and senior year? 6 A. I entered the seminary as a junior year, 7 in my junior year. So the type of activity that we 8 would have normally had in high school as juniors and 9 seniors, we did not have in the seminary, obviously. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 774 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 775 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. As you were growing up in New Mexico, what 10 interests did you develop outside of the priest -- 11 you know, the interest in the church? 12 A. I've always been one that's been engaged 13 in athletics; so all kinds of sports interested me 14 greatly. They still do. Not only competitive sports 15 such as basketball, football, baseball, track, but I 16 also enjoy the mountains of New Mexico very much, 17 hiking, skiing, fishing, hunting. 18 Q. Did you have, educationally, when you were 19 going to high school and the seminary, did you have 20 any particular interest in history? 21 A. History, especially from ancient history, 22 medieval history, was interesting to me. So I would 23 try to read novels about it. 24 Q. Did you have any particular interest in 25 New Mexico history that related to your culture, how CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 776 1 it related to your culture? 2 A. Not at that time. The interest developed 3 later in my life. 4 Q. Did it develop in your life after you 5 became Archbishop? 6 A. Yes, I would say about that time. 7 Q. Other than what you've just described, 8 were there any other hobbies or interests that you 9 can think of that you had prior to entering into the 10 seminary? 11 A. I don't intend the subjects that I listed 12 as an exclusive listing. There's -- I'm sure there's 13 many other interests that I have that I'm not 14 thinking of right offhand. These come to mind that I 15 have mentioned to you. 16 I've taken an interest in places that are 17 old or ruins. Many of the ruins of New Mexico have 18 become interesting to me to try to read about, what 19 was their life like, what do the ruins say to us 20 today, things of that nature. 21 Q. Did you have an interest in learning about 22 the history of the church before you ever entered the 23 seminary? 24 A. No. I was too young at that time to have 25 that particular interest. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 777 1 Q. While you were in the seminary and 2 thereafter, did you develop an interest in the 3 history of the church or not? 4 A. You mean by "church," do you mean local 5 church -- 6 Q. Well, Roman Catholic church. 7 A. -- or the universal church? Well, being a 8 Roman Catholic and entering into the seminary, I 9 certainly had an interest in the history of the 10 Church because you study the Sacred Scriptures and 11 the whole acts of the apostles as the history of the 12 early Church; so I became quite, you know, interested 13 in that. 14 Q. I understand you had certain courses that 15 you had to take that covered that, but I was trying 16 to discover whether you really had a personal 17 interest other than having been required to study 18 those type of things? 19 A. No, not during my seminary years. You're 20 so involved in all the theological studies, you don't 21 have much time for real personal interests like 22 that. But I did study the history of the Church as 23 part of our theological requirements. 24 Q. Can you recall -- I think last time in 25 your deposition, you indicated that probably your CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 778 1 closest friend in the priesthood was Leo Lucero, 2 Father Leo Lucero? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Were there others in the Archdiocese of 5 Santa Fe in the early years before you became 6 Archbishop that you would consider friends rather 7 than acquaintances? 8 A. One in particular would be, at that time, 9 was Father Arthur Tafoya. Presently he is Bishop 10 Arthur Tafoya, bishop of Pueblo, Colorado. 11 Q. When you referred to Leo Lucero and Arthur 12 Tafoya as friends, were they individuals that you 13 would socialize with outside your priestly duties? 14 A. Yes. We could take our day off together, 15 go to the mountains together, fish together, go 16 hiking together. 17 Q. And did they remain your friends in that 18 same capacity after you became the archbishop? 19 A. They remained close friends, although I 20 did not have the time to spend with them as much as I 21 would have liked to. 22 Q. Were there other individuals, once you 23 became Archbishop, who became new close friends? 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you speaking about 25 priests or -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 779 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Priests, yes, within the 2 Archdiocese. 3 A. Just one because we shared a common 4 interest, and that is Father Richard Olona, who is 5 currently the Chancellor of the Archdiocese. He is 6 an avid fisherman, and so I enjoyed his company when 7 we would go fishing together. 8 Q. Did you become close friends with Father 9 Sabine Griego? 10 A. No, I did not. He was -- I would call him 11 a friend, as I would call 100 of our priests friends, 12 but they were not in the same category at all as 13 Bishop Arthur Tafoya, Father Leo Lucero or even 14 Father Richard Olona. 15 Q. Did you ever socialize at all with Father 16 Griego? 17 A. Never outside of a function that was 18 associated with church. He would invite me to his 19 rectory when he was celebrating -- well, not a 20 celebration, but he would invite the teachers of his 21 school, for instance, for a thank you dinner at the 22 end of the year, an appreciation dinner. He would 23 ask -- he said, "If you can drop by, they would 24 appreciate seeing you." If I had a chance, I would 25 drop by for that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 780 1 On one occasion he invited me to a 2 tamale-making party at Christmastime. The women of 3 the parish were there all in line making tamales; and 4 so I joined for that occasion. 5 He would invite me, as he did many 6 priests, to have lunch if we happened to be in the 7 area with them, since they had a large group of 8 people from their staff having lunch, and I must have 9 had lunch with him three or four times that way where 10 a number of the priests were present. 11 Q. In these various examples you just gave, 12 were they when Father Griego was in Las Vegas? 13 A. No. The ones I'm giving you now are 14 examples that I am recently recalling. That was in 15 Albuquerque. 16 In Las Vegas, I seldom ever saw him. 17 First of all, I didn't know him. I did not meet 18 Father until I was stationed in Mosquero at that 19 time, but practically never saw him because our paths 20 just didn't cross. He was a priest in Las Vegas. 21 Q. You met him in 1968; isn't that when you 22 went to Roy? 23 A. Yes, I was in Roy in 1968. 24 Q. That's when you first met him because you 25 were in the same deanery; is that correct? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 781 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In the deanery, did you get to know him 3 better during the next three years before you moved 4 back to Albuquerque? 5 A. Not well. Those years he was functioning, 6 I believe, as the chaplain at the State Hospital, and 7 so he really wasn't that intimate with the parish. 8 The person that I would see when I would 9 come to Las Vegas at that time was Father -- well, 10 he's now Monsignor Sipio Salas. He was in the other 11 parish. 12 I would see Father Griego with his pastor, 13 Father Burke, at Our Lady of Sorrows parish, but it 14 wasn't often. You just don't have that opportunity. 15 Q. Did there come a time when your 16 relationship with Father Griego was closer than those 17 first few years? 18 A. When I became Archbishop, which was some 19 11 years later, I was then -- I had to meet him, 20 well, because he was the pastor at that time of Our 21 Lady of Sorrows, and I was making my pastoral visits 22 as well as confirmation visits to every parish. And 23 so you get a chance at that time to meet the pastors, 24 to see the work that they're doing. And so you have 25 those opportunities. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 782 1 Q. How about Father Esquibel, did you know 2 him in any social way? 3 A. Even less because he was not pastor for 4 several years and never really socialized with Father 5 Esquibel at all on any occasion that I can recall. 6 When he did become a pastor, in fact in Los Lunas, we 7 would have a reception after, say, confirmation, and 8 whatever socializing you do with the people and with 9 him at that time, that's what I would have. 10 Q. And did you ever socialize with Father 11 Esquibel and Father Griego together, the three of 12 you? 13 A. No. There was never an occasion where the 14 three of us would have to socialize or have an 15 opportunity to socialize. Father Esquibel was just 16 not that close. I was his superior as his 17 archbishop, but we didn't have anything in common 18 that we would want to socialize about. 19 Q. Any other individual priest that you can 20 recall other than Father Lucero and Father Olona that 21 were close friends? 22 A. Yeah. Perhaps one other, but I wouldn't 23 say, maybe once a year with him, that was Monsignor 24 Salas, Monsignor Sipio Salas. He had been a teacher 25 of mine in the seminary, and so I had great respect CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 783 1 for him. And he would call and say, "Why don't we go 2 and play a game of golf together sometime?" I am not 3 an avid golf player, but if they invite me out twice 4 a year, I'll try and get out with them. But he was 5 kind enough to do that just to get me out of the 6 office. 7 Q. And I take it that when you did socialize, 8 it was the various situations we've already talked 9 about, fishing, sports activities, that kind of 10 thing? 11 A. Yes, right. 12 Q. When you took over as the archbishop in 13 1974, what did you do with respect to the existing 14 policies that may have been in place from Archbishop 15 Davis? Did you review those policies? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It assumes 17 that there were policies. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Okay. Were there any 19 policies? 20 A. No, there were no written policies that 21 had been established for guidance, you know, of 22 various functions of the Archdiocese. We had no 23 written personnel policies, no written financial 24 policies. Things were handled ad hoc, you might say, 25 and in a traditional manner, I think, the accepted CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 784 1 functions had to be followed. 2 To a great extent, many of those functions 3 are governed by the Code of Canon Law -- you have a 4 copy right there -- and we try to accommodate 5 whatever limitations we have in our administration to 6 the code. 7 Q. Other than accommodating the code, were 8 there any just practical policies in place; in other 9 words, if such-and-such happens, this is how we deal 10 with it? 11 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object as vague 12 and ambiguous, unless you indicate perhaps the 13 subject of the policies that you are seeking, you 14 know, if the fire alarm goes off, what do you do. Is 15 it any kind of policy that has to do with anything, 16 or are you looking for a kind of policy? So my 17 objection is vague and ambiguous. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Any policies with 19 respect to the administration of the Archdiocese? 20 A. There were some general policies for the 21 education department because they had to follow state 22 department guidelines for the administration of 23 Catholic schools; and so those policies had to be 24 followed. I do not recall any policies, any written 25 policies, certainly, and I was unaware of any CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 785 1 policies, since I did not really -- I was not privy 2 to the Archbishop's mind or how he had handled things 3 in his administration. He was not one who depended a 4 lot upon committees for his decisions. It was sort 5 of a different age in the church at that time. 6 Q. By that you mean that he made most of his 7 decisions himself without counsel? 8 A. He was an individual, yes. 9 Q. Did you inquire of Bishop Davis or anyone 10 else within the Archdiocese as to what the 11 relationship was between the Servants of the 12 Paraclete and the Archdiocese? 13 A. No, I had no occasion to inquire as to 14 that relationship. I knew that it was a religious 15 community that existed in the Archdiocese, had been 16 founded there. I wanted to meet all of the religious 17 communities that were members of the Archdiocese; so 18 I also met whoever the superiors were at that time of 19 the Servants of the Paraclete. 20 Q. You went around and introduced yourself? 21 A. Exactly. And I would arrange, you know, 22 for a gathering at least to present myself to them. 23 And that was pro forma. I did that with each of the 24 various religious communities. I did that with each 25 of the parishes. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 786 1 Q. With respect to the Servants of the 2 Paraclete, when you became the archbishop, do you 3 recall who the superiors were? 4 A. I can see the face, but I can't recall the 5 name. I apologize. If you have some names to 6 suggest, I'm sure that it would ring a bell, and I 7 could say yes or no to them, but offhand I just can't 8 recall. 9 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with 10 any of the superiors of the Servants of the Paraclete 11 regarding the relationship between the Servants and 12 the Archdiocese? 13 A. No. 14 Q. When you say no, does that mean you don't 15 believe any such discussions occurred, or you just 16 don't remember? 17 A. I do not recall any specific discussions, 18 and I don't believe they occurred, because I didn't 19 get the knowledge that otherwise I would have 20 understood what the relationship was or its history. 21 I never bothered to learn the history, actually. 22 No, I can't recall any meeting of that 23 nature where we would discuss the history or the 24 specific relationship. I think that our gatherings 25 together were simply, "How are things going?" That CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 787 1 was it. 2 Q. Did you have any discussions with the 3 Chancellor of the Archdiocese regarding the 4 relationship between Servants of the Paraclete and 5 the Archdiocese of Santa Fe? 6 A. No, no, we never had any discussions in 7 that regard. I'm not even certain whether he was 8 aware of the history of the Servants of the 9 Paraclete, but we had no discussions that I can 10 recall. 11 Q. But I wasn't referring to the history. I 12 meant the history of the relationship between the 13 Archdiocese and the Servants of the Paraclete, how 14 they worked with each other. 15 A. No. The Servants of the Paraclete are an 16 independent religious community. They lived up in 17 the Jemez Springs area, and except for any request 18 they would have of me or any occasion that we might 19 have to deal with them on a specific issue, they 20 simply operated their own monastery and their work 21 independently of ourselves. And that's the way each 22 religious community exists. 23 Q. You did testify in your last deposition 24 regarding the way you personally handled priests that 25 were referred to the Servants of the Paraclete, and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 788 1 I'm wondering, how did you determine the procedure 2 you were going to utilize? Was it based on 3 experience, or did you just make it up? 4 A. What procedure are you referring to? 5 Q. Well, for instance, if a priest were going 6 to be referred to the Servants of the Paraclete, what 7 was the procedure that you followed to handle that 8 situation? 9 A. Well, if we had decided that a priest 10 should go up to the Servants of the Paraclete, it 11 would require a phone call, making contact with 12 whoever would be in charge, letting them know that we 13 would like them to receive a priest perhaps for an 14 evaluation, if that would be possible, and, if so, 15 when, when should he report there, how many days 16 should he anticipate. So the information would be 17 discussed verbally. 18 Q. And would you be the individual that had 19 that discussion, or would it be someone that you 20 directed to have the discussion? 21 A. Occasionally, it might be myself. If I 22 would make a call, for instance, and I could not 23 contact anyone who could assume that authority, then 24 I might just let that be handled by the chancellor, 25 yeah. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 789 1 Q. After this initial phone call would be 2 made and the standard procedure, would there be a 3 letter that followed that phone call confirming the 4 information in the phone call? 5 A. Not necessarily. Once the confirmation is 6 made on the phone, and they agreed to certain times 7 and dates, then you just followed it up, and the man 8 goes up. 9 Q. Was there a procedure that you followed 10 once the man went up to the Servants, as far as 11 keeping track of what was going on? 12 A. I would imagine the second step would be, 13 you know, from the Servants. They would then inform 14 me whether they felt the man should continue with the 15 program there at the Servants, or they felt that 16 there was no need for that, and things would go on. 17 Now, I guess there's a radical difference 18 between what took place in very early years and what 19 has happened more recently because I am just 20 recalling that in those very early years, the 21 Servants did not do any therapeutic treatment at 22 their own center but apparently had men go to other 23 centers, other professionals, either private 24 practitioners, therapists in the community, or one of 25 the centers that would be available for that purpose. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 790 1 Q. And by the "early years," what years are 2 you referring to? 3 A. Oh, I would say throughout the '70's 4 perhaps. Now, that's -- I'm just speculating, I 5 can't recall, but I would assume that in those years 6 of the '70's, they may have had that practice. I 7 think during the '80's, if I'm not mistaken, they had 8 therapeutic treatment at the centers. 9 Q. And if an individual during the '70's was 10 referred to the Servants for evaluation, and the 11 Servants recommended that the priest get therapy but 12 reside at the Servants' location, were you kept 13 abreast of what was going on? 14 A. No. There was very little, if any, 15 communication on the individual, and that's 16 understandable since the individual was under the 17 care and, therefore, under the -- what should I say 18 -- professional -- what's the word I'm seeking? -- 19 professional protection of the therapist. And the 20 therapist never spoke to me. I never would know who 21 the therapist was that was in fact dealing with 22 Father X. 23 They would report, perhaps, directly to 24 the community of the Servants of the Paraclete, and 25 the Paraclete community would then communicate with CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 791 1 me, but normally that would be at the exit interview, 2 not during the time of therapy. 3 Q. Not during the course of therapy? 4 A. Exactly. 5 Q. Well, in that situation, on an exit 6 interview, would the communication you just described 7 be in writing? 8 A. Normally, it was an interview much like 9 this. We would sit together, and it would be 10 verbally communicated. I don't recall right offhand 11 any summary of the exit interview. It would be done, 12 I suppose, with an eye to confidentiality, since the 13 individual was speaking, and perhaps they preferred 14 not to put that in writing. 15 Q. Did you ever receive during the '70's 16 correspondence from the Servants of the Paraclete? 17 A. Any kind of correspondence? 18 Q. Any kind of correspondence. 19 A. Oh, yes, uh-huh, sure. 20 Q. Did you have a file within the Archdiocese 21 records that was labeled the "Servants of the 22 Paraclete"? 23 A. I'm sure we did. We had a file on all 24 religious communities. 25 Q. Do you know what your filing system was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 792 1 while you were Archbishop with regard to what went in 2 the Servants of the Paraclete file? 3 A. We didn't have a system as such. 4 Communications came in. If it was more than a simple 5 inquiry, something that I felt needed to be referred 6 to at a later date, I would give that to my secretary 7 for filing purposes. 8 Q. And then would you direct her as to what 9 file to place the document in? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall any procedures that you 12 personally utilized to file documents regarding a 13 priest who had gone to the Servants of the Paraclete 14 and had been returned to the Archdiocese as to where 15 documents would be filed with regard to that priest? 16 A. If there was a document pertaining to an 17 individual, that document would normally go into the 18 priest's file, not into the Servants' file. 19 Q. Do you recall what types of documents 20 would go into the Servants' file? 21 A. Communications from the Servants regarding 22 change of superiors, they were informing me that a 23 new superior had been elected. They would inform me 24 the new director of the house or of the community was 25 appointed, their own personnel changes that way. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 793 1 There was some communication, I believe, 2 regarding the request of Rome for approval as a 3 pontifical religious community; so that their 4 authority would come directly from the Sacred 5 Congregation for Religious in Rome rather than from 6 myself. 7 And there is a procedure toward that, and 8 there would have been communication for things of 9 that nature, perhaps informing me of building of a 10 new building or opening of a new program in one of 11 their houses. So general administrative information 12 like that would have come, and those items would have 13 been placed in the Servants of the Paraclete file. 14 Q. Is it fair to say that documents that were 15 received from the Paraclete that did not involve a 16 particular priest but were of a general nature would 17 go into the Servants of the Paraclete file? 18 A. Yes. And that wasn't very often. There 19 wasn't much communication. But those documents would 20 go into that file. 21 Q. Do you remember if that file was in 22 existence when you became the archbishop? 23 A. I couldn't answer that because I didn't 24 make a file. My secretary would have taken care of 25 that, but I would have to assume that there was one CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 794 1 in existence because the Paracletes had been in 2 existence since around 1950. So there would have to 3 be some kind of file. 4 Q. Do you remember back -- I know this is a 5 long time ago -- whether you, at any point in your 6 early days as Archbishop, made a review of the 7 existing files of the Archdiocese? 8 A. No, I did not take time to review the 9 files of the Servants of the Paraclete or files in 10 general. This takes time. 11 Q. So there was no general review by you? 12 A. No, no, there was not. 13 Q. I believe your secretary was also 14 Archbishop Davis's secretary; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. She was his secretary for, I don't 16 know whether his whole term or not. I could not 17 answer that. But she was my secretary when I took 18 over, and I kept her on until her retirement, I 19 believe around 1991 or '92, um-hm. 20 Q. And when you became the archbishop and she 21 was already an employee, did you give her any 22 directions as to how you wanted the system to work, 23 the filing system or the administrative system, that 24 might be different than the existing one, or did you 25 just say "Keep it the way you're doing it"? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 795 1 A. I think she gave me instructions on how 2 those things -- you know, secretaries are very 3 competent, and she obviously was a very competent 4 woman, and I think that she had a system going that 5 was very effective, and so she followed that system. 6 Q. So you didn't see any need, nor did you 7 make any changes in the existing system? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you recall whether you reviewed the 10 Servants of the Paraclete file at any point during 11 the time you were Archbishop? 12 A. No, I did not. 13 Q. And have you reviewed the Paraclete file 14 at any time since you've left Santa Fe? 15 A. To this day? 16 MR. KONRAD: I need to object. I think 17 that assumes that he has testified that there was a 18 file, and I don't think -- he said he assumes there 19 was a file, but he doesn't know. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Assuming that your 21 assumption is correct that there is a file, have you 22 at any point in time ever reviewed such a file? 23 A. I have not. 24 Q. With respect to the issue of sending 25 priests to the Servants of the Paraclete, was there a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 796 1 procedure that you went through as Archbishop before 2 that decision was ever made as to whether to refer a 3 priest to the Servants? 4 A. You would have to ask me about a period 5 because I think that there's been an evolution in our 6 own handling of individuals like this. And I think 7 that if you're speaking about at a time even, say, in 8 the '70's, there was not a great -- if the person 9 gave evidence of needing counseling, guidance in his 10 life, his interpersonal skills were obviously very, 11 in a sense, crude, they were not refined in relating 12 to people, he was a person that was insulting, that 13 would involve a personal discussion with myself, 14 normally with another person present, and then a 15 directive would be given. The priest would accept 16 the request, the offer, a call would be placed to 17 the Servants of the Paraclete, and action would be 18 taken. 19 Q. Did you ever consult with the Personnel 20 Board regarding the assignment of a priest to the 21 Servants of the Paraclete? 22 A. Normally, the issue, in other words, the 23 concern for an individual priest would have been 24 discussed there because of problems that had surfaced 25 with his administration as a priest. And out of that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 797 1 concern would have been service by the board to the 2 point where I thought that the man needed assistance, 3 he needed counseling, more than simply a talk with 4 myself. I'm not a therapist. And so I certainly 5 could not take the time to help him. 6 Q. So you did actually consult with the 7 Personnel Board regarding a priest that needed 8 counseling? 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. That's not 10 the Archbishop's testimony. The Archbishop said it 11 may have happened on occasion, but it wasn't 12 necessarily a policy, as I understand the testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: Normally, it was concerns of 14 the administration. The men were -- the Personnel 15 Board was concerned with the effective and successful 16 administration of our pastors in their parochial 17 assignments. And if there were problems that way, 18 then let's address them to see what can be done to 19 correct it. If it requires a transfer, a transfer 20 would occur. If it requires education, let's try to 21 provide education. If it needed counseling, let's 22 provide some kind of guidance for the man. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) So are you saying this 24 type of consultation with the Personnel Board 25 happened regularly or just on rare occasion? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 798 1 A. We wouldn't be dealing with problems all 2 the time. Most of our concern was with trying to 3 have proper pastors assigned to parishes where they 4 could do the most effective work, and to be assisted 5 by another priest who could work with them well and 6 try to get the work going that way. But when a 7 problem would arise, then you have to handle it. 8 Q. And my question is, did you handle it with 9 the advice of the Personnel Board, those kinds of 10 problems? 11 A. I would say that -- I cannot say 12 categorically that every single problem was handled 13 that way because I can't recall every single one, but 14 problems of personnel normally were discussed with 15 the Personnel Board. 16 Q. And when you first became archbishop, were 17 minutes taken of the Personnel Board meetings? 18 A. I think when we refer to minutes, that 19 might be a relative understanding. We did not have a 20 court reporter or a professional secretary taking 21 minutes. We considered the actions of the Personnel 22 Board to be confidential; so we would simply invite 23 one of the priests to keep notes, but the notes would 24 not be of discussion because the man had to involve 25 himself in discussion. Normally what would be put CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 799 1 down would be the actions taken, the recommendations 2 that they would make to me for personnel transfers or 3 changes. 4 Q. And would those notes be typed? 5 A. They would be hand-taken, obviously, 6 during the meeting. At subsequent times, some would 7 be typed, and some would not, depending on the 8 individual priest and his abilities. Some priests 9 were very good at their reporting of minutes. Others 10 were not that good. 11 Q. But was it always a practice, at least 12 while you were Archbishop, to have some effort made 13 towards keeping minutes? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And was a file created during your time as 16 Archbishop simply called minutes of the Personnel 17 Board meetings or something like that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall how long you were on the 20 Personnel Board before you became Archbishop? 21 A. I think I served for one, possibly two 22 years. It may have been 1971, '72, something like 23 that. 24 Q. Is your memory on that somewhat unclear? 25 A. Well, I recall that I belonged to the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 800 1 Personnel Board when I was at San Felipe, but I don't 2 recall -- there was an occasion at that time where, 3 when I was on the board, that I recall I was in San 4 Felipe, but then I think the Personnel Board 5 disbanded, and I don't think anybody belonged to it 6 for a while. So that's why I say that I think I may 7 have belonged to it only for one, possibly two years, 8 but it wasn't more than that. 9 Q. The time that you were on the Personnel 10 Board, was it one term, whatever the length of that 11 term was, without interruption? 12 A. The term is normally, at least I think it 13 was at that time, a three-year term, but, as I say, I 14 think the Personnel Board disbanded, and therefore 15 none of us really finished out our terms. 16 Q. So you recall, if I'm hearing you 17 correctly, you recall being on the Personnel Board, 18 and then the Personnel Board disbanding, and then 19 never rejoining? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Is that correct? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. And do you -- 24 A. We were elected to it, actually. 25 Q. When you were elected, was it out of your CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 801 1 deanery that you were elected? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And was that when you were in Roy? 4 A. No. I was in Albuquerque. 5 Q. In Albuquerque. Do you recall -- 6 (Exhibit 16 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 I'm marking Deposition Exhibit 16. I 9 doubt that you've looked at this recently, if at 10 all. Would you look at that document briefly? 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Can we go off the 12 record a moment? 13 (A discussion was held off the record.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, have you had 15 an opportunity to review Exhibit 16? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Do you recall ever seeing that document 18 before? 19 A. Not this specific document, no. 20 Q. Do you recognize the form of the document? 21 A. The form of the document is one that the 22 Archdiocese has used for inquiries to priests as to 23 their personnel preferences. It contains a variety 24 of statements and questions as to how they feel 25 they're -- if they're happy in their present CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 802 1 position, if they're anticipating a transfer, if they 2 prefer one, or what their interest may be. So it's 3 more just to indicate to the Personnel Board their 4 own personal feelings regarding their assignment. 5 Q. So this document is the type of document 6 that would be reviewed by the Personnel Board? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Could you turn to the last page of Exhibit 9 16? I think it's question 13. Do you see that? 10 A. Um-hm. 11 Q. By the way, this is the document that was 12 prepared by Sabine Griego; is that correct? Is that 13 his signature on the last page? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Excuse me, Archbishop, 16 you've never seen this document until today, I 17 believe? 18 THE WITNESS: I have not, no. 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you know his 20 signature? 21 A. Yes, it's his signature. 22 Q. What's the date of the signature? 23 A. October 25, 1969. 24 Q. And at question 13, I believe it asks, if 25 I can summarize it, it asks if he has a preference as CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 803 1 to who he might want to deal with on the Personnel 2 Board; is that correct? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. How does he answer that? 5 A. He says, "If you have a preference, kindly 6 state with whom," and he puts down my name, which 7 indicates that I was a member of the Personnel Board 8 then at that time in 1970. 9 Q. And actually it states on that printed 10 portion, it lists all the members of the Personnel 11 Board, doesn't it? 12 A. It does, uh-huh. 13 Q. And you were one as of October 25, 1969; 14 correct? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Does that refresh your memory at all about 17 -- 18 A. Not an awful lot. 19 Q. -- your tenure? 20 A. I just -- you know, you're going back 25 21 years, and I can't tell you everything I did exactly 22 when. I know I did belong to the board at that time, 23 but the exact year I could not give to you, but 24 obviously I was a member of the board at that time. 25 If you have other documents such as this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 804 1 that can help stimulate my memory, please produce 2 them so that I can -- if this is discovery, I'd like 3 to be able to help you, because the documents 4 certainly are better than a memory of 25 years. 5 (Exhibit 17 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. I hand you what is marked as Exhibit 17. 8 Can you look at that document, please. I'll 9 represent to you that this came from your personnel 10 file. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Have you reviewed that letter? 13 A. I have not reviewed this letter, no. 14 Q. I mean did you just now review it? 15 A. Yes, uh-huh. 16 Q. Does that letter indicate to you that you 17 were the chairman of the Personnel Board as of 18 February 28, 1972? 19 A. Yes, it does. 20 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to how 21 long you served on the Personnel Board? 22 A. I could not recall I had served as early 23 as 1969, but I did recall, as I said, around '71 or 24 '72. And it was at this time when I was chairman 25 that the board was dissolved, in fact. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 805 1 Q. So sometime after February 28th of '72 is 2 when the board was dissolved? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall how long after that, after 5 you became chairman? 6 A. No, I don't. 7 Q. Do you recall the circumstances 8 surrounding the dissolution of the Personnel Board? 9 A. Not in specifics. I think there was just 10 disappointment in the board that some recommendations 11 of the board apparently were not being accepted by 12 the archbishop, and we felt that perhaps we were not 13 really functioning effectively, and he should feel 14 free to either initiate another board or do as he 15 chose. So the board dissolved. 16 Q. So are you saying that the board itself 17 voted to dissolve? 18 A. I think it was -- I can't recall exactly 19 whether it was a board motion or individuals chose to 20 simply submit their resignation, but, in fact, it did 21 dissolve. 22 Q. What were these decisions that were not 23 being followed by the archbishop? 24 A. I can't recall. Personnel, ordinary 25 personnel recommendations. I think at that time the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 806 1 very fact that we had a Personnel Board, which was 2 not old, that was not traditional in the Roman 3 Catholic Church. The very fact that we had a board, 4 we had assumed that perhaps we had more authority 5 than we really had. Basically, we were an advisory 6 board, but I think we were thinking that we should 7 have been more than that, and we hoped that the 8 archbishop would have taken our recommendations more 9 completely. And I think there was disappointment 10 over some recommendations. And so the board decided 11 to resign. 12 Q. Do you recall if you participated in any 13 discussions with Archbishop Davis regarding the 14 potential dissolution of the Personnel Board? 15 A. I don't recall meeting with him personally 16 concerning it. 17 Q. You were the chairman? 18 A. I was the chairman, yes. 19 Q. Do you know if there was any dialogue 20 between Archbishop Davis and any members of the 21 Personnel Board regarding a dissolution of the 22 Personnel Board? 23 A. No, I do not know. 24 Q. Do you recall whether Archbishop Davis 25 directed that the Personnel Board be dissolved? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 807 1 A. I do not recall that, no. 2 Q. And you don't think that to be the case? 3 A. I don't think that was the case. 4 Q. Looking at Exhibits 16 and 17, does that 5 refresh your memory that you were in fact on the 6 Personnel Board at least from October of '69 through 7 February of '72? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. During that period of time, do you recall 10 whether Archbishop Davis consulted the Personnel 11 Board regarding issues of visiting priests from other 12 dioceses? 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you saying priests 14 of this archdiocese visiting other priests? 15 MR. TINKLER: No. Priests from other 16 dioceses visiting this archdiocese. 17 THE WITNESS: I can't recall that 18 specifically, no. As I mentioned earlier, the 19 archbishop was his own man and did not always refer 20 things to his committees, whatever committees may 21 have existed. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall whether 23 Archbishop Davis, as a routine practice, would 24 consult with the Personnel Board during this time 25 frame we're talking about, '69 through '72, regarding CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 808 1 requests for a priest that wants to be incardinated 2 in this diocese? 3 A. No, there was no consultation for 4 incardination of the board. 5 Q. Was that true during your tenure as 6 archbishop as well? 7 A. No. I made it a point that consultation 8 would take place with the board for any 9 incardination. 10 Q. How about with respect to the priests who 11 had been visiting the Servants of the Paraclete and 12 sought to work part time in the diocese during the 13 period of '69 to '72, would the Personnel Board be 14 consulted about that situation? 15 A. No, we would not. 16 Q. And you're sure that never happened? 17 A. See, we were a board for assignments, 18 canonical assignments. Any type of substitute or 19 part-time, weekend assistance didn't come from the 20 Personnel Board. That was totally an administrative 21 decision by the archbishop, perhaps with his 22 chancellor. 23 Q. With respect to assignments within the 24 Archdiocese by a priest that came from other 25 jurisdictions, was the Personnel Board during the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 809 1 years '69 through '72 consulted with regard to those 2 decisions? 3 A. I would have to say in regard to some. 4 That was precisely the issue that led to our 5 dissolving the board, that we were not always 6 consulted, and some of our recommendations were not 7 always followed. It was simply that the archbishop 8 felt that he would make his own decisions. 9 Q. Do you recall whether or not the board, 10 Personnel Board, was consulted in 1970 regarding the 11 assignment of Father Sigler to the St. Thomas parish? 12 A. I cannot recall that at all. 13 Q. When you say you can't recall it, are you 14 indicating there was no such consultation, or that 15 you simply do not remember? 16 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. I 17 don't think that there is going to be evidence that 18 there was an assignment in the year 1970 to St. 19 Thomas parish. I think all -- and so that's the 20 basis of my objection, that there will not be 21 evidence to support that type of a question. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I do not believe that it 23 ever came before us. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) How about in 1971? 25 A. I do not recall any action on that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 810 1 particular individual. 2 Q. That you participated in as a member of 3 the Personnel Board? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. Did the Personnel Board during that same 6 time period become involved in the decision making as 7 to whether someone would be made a deacon? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you talking '69 to 9 '72? 10 MR. TINKLER: Right. 11 THE WITNESS: No. The issue of permanent 12 deacons was brand new, and it was so brand new that 13 the archbishop was handling that apparently himself, 14 together with the designated priest in charge of 15 permanent deacons. And we never really approved of 16 any candidates or their training. We were not 17 consulted. And at that time they were not really 18 given -- I can't recall them being given what we call 19 permanent assignments. I think there were so few, 20 the archbishop simply would assign them normally to 21 their parish of origin to assist the pastor at that 22 particular place. 23 The Personnel Board was not involved with 24 the permanent deacons. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Was the Personnel Board CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 811 1 involved with the permanent deacon who applies to 2 become a priest? 3 A. If a permanent deacon -- no. A permanent 4 deacon if he has already been ordained is what you 5 are stating? 6 Q. No. I'm talking about the situation where 7 someone has become a deacon within the Archdiocese by 8 Archbishop Davis appointing him as a deacon and then 9 he wants to be ordained. 10 A. He would have to go to the archbishop to 11 request permission to enter the seminary then to be 12 approved by the archbishop as a candidate for the 13 priesthood, and his candidacy normally would not come 14 across us at all. That's between the archbishop and 15 his vocation director. 16 Q. How about when a priest in that situation 17 has ostensibly completed his requirements to become a 18 priest and is then seeking ordination, is that final 19 decision one that is even brought before the 20 Personnel Board? 21 A. The archbishop handled that totally 22 himself for ordinations. 23 Q. Was that true during your tenure as 24 archbishop, that type of situation? 25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Which type of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 812 1 situation? 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Where you have a deacon 3 who attends the seminary, graduates, and then wants 4 to be ordained? 5 A. The Personnel Board, during my tenure, 6 would be consulted about any upcoming proposed 7 ordinations to the priesthood because their 8 responsibility would be to have to assign them, but 9 they would have been free even prior to that 10 particular consultation to state any cause of 11 objection or any feeling why an individual should or 12 should not be ordained. But normally their role was 13 to be able to assign an individual to a parish or 14 whatever assignment was appropriate following their 15 ordination. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Would the -- what you 17 have just described as the Personnel Board's 18 participation in that type of arrangement, was that 19 also the case while you were on the Personnel Board? 20 A. Their principal responsibility was the 21 assignment of ordained priests to various assignments 22 within the Archdiocese. If I chose to include any 23 discussion with the priest about upcoming 24 ordinations, we would do that, to find out -- this 25 would be before they would be ordained, to decide CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 813 1 where they best would be able to serve, but decisions 2 about the ordination would have been made with the 3 vocation director, in concert with the seminaries 4 where they were being trained, with the vocation 5 committee members and the archbishop. 6 Q. During the period of time you were on the 7 Personnel Board, do you recall any instance where you 8 objected to someone that was going to be ordained 9 because you didn't think they were qualified? 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I thought the previous 11 testimony had been that from '69 to '72, while he was 12 on the Personnel Board, the Personnel Board was not 13 consulted by Archbishop Davis with regard to 14 ordination. 15 THE WITNESS: We weren't consulted as a 16 board, nor do I recall ever being consulted as an 17 individual, no. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall Father 19 Smith coming before the Personnel Board during the 20 time that you were on the Personnel Board? 21 A. He never came before the board. 22 Q. His name coming before the board? 23 A. No, I can't recall individual names who 24 were ordained or who served or who were transferred 25 at that time. We simply handled those who the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 814 1 archbishop asked us to handle. He formed the agenda 2 for us, and we would react to that. 3 Q. During the period of time you were on the 4 Personnel Board, do you recall the Personnel Board 5 ever being given access to the priest file on an 6 individual priest? 7 A. Never, um-um. No, that belonged totally 8 in the hands of the archbishop who had those files. 9 Q. Was that true during your tenure as 10 archbishop, that the priest files always remained 11 within your exclusive control? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. And they were never shared with the 14 Personnel Board? 15 A. No. The Personnel Board did not have 16 access to personnel files, to individual personnel 17 files. 18 Q. Do you recall that once the Personnel 19 Board was disbanded, how long was it before it was 20 reformed? 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you know, 22 Archbishop. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can't recall. I 24 really can't recall whether it was a few months or a 25 year or two years. I just can't recall that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 815 1 Perhaps -- I know that when I became the archbishop, 2 that I had a Personnel Board. Now, whether I 3 initiated it or reestablished one myself or whether 4 it had been reestablished prior to my coming on, I 5 just don't recall that, but I did have that Personnel 6 Board. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) From the start, you had 8 a board? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And I think your testimony is that 11 sometime after Exhibit 17, the February 1972 letter, 12 is when the board was disbanded? 13 A. Um-hm. 14 Q. Was the period of time that the board was 15 not in existence the same period of time that you had 16 previously testified that Archbishop Davis had 17 started to show signs of disease? 18 A. My testimony was not so much disease, if 19 you look at it. I was saying he seemed to give 20 indication that he was not remembering actions that 21 he may have taken in the recent past because he would 22 be issuing another order which seemed to contradict a 23 prior decision. 24 Now, a person certainly can contradict a 25 prior decision if you're in that position of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 816 1 responsibility, but we would be surprised at when 2 that would occur. And obviously he was indicating or 3 giving signs that his health was not as well as it 4 should have been. He was under his own physician. 5 He was suffering from chronic gout. He had to have 6 special shoes. And I'm not certain what other 7 illnesses he was suffering from, but it was obvious 8 that he was not as strong as he would like to have 9 been. I think that led also to his early retirement. 10 Q. I think you indicated previously that you 11 thought he was showing signs of Alzheimer's disease? 12 A. See, Alzheimer's took over his life. Oh, 13 perhaps five years after his retirement, it really 14 came on. And I believe that the initial signs of 15 that were what we were noticing without recognizing 16 it. 17 Q. Back during near the end of his tenure? 18 A. Yes, right, exactly. I think, you know, 19 some of these diseases evolve, they do not just hit a 20 person acutely immediately, and I think that was 21 taking place in his personal life. 22 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you're 23 saying that at the time that it was taking place, you 24 didn't connect it with Alzheimer disease? 25 A. Um-um. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 817 1 Q. But you just noticed some memory lapses? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Were you aware if one of the diseases that 4 he was having difficulty with was alcoholism? 5 A. I wouldn't call it alcoholism, no, um-um. 6 Q. What would you call it? 7 A. I think he enjoyed his drink. I don't 8 know whether you enjoy drinks or not, but he enjoyed 9 his, but I wouldn't call it alcoholism. He was not a 10 chronic drinker, one who had to have alcohol around, 11 no. 12 Q. Was he a regular drinker? 13 A. I could not answer that question. I did 14 not live with him. I did not associate with him 15 regularly. So I could not answer that question. 16 Q. You were in Albuquerque the last, what, 17 two or three years that he was the archbishop? 18 A. Yes, three years. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 818 1 2 3 4 5 The pastors knew, and we shared it that 6 if you were going to host him, and if he wanted a 7 drink, what he would drink would be some rum. That's 8 what he enjoyed. So get some rum on hand when he 9 comes because he may want a drink, and that's what he 10 would have. He wouldn't drink anything else. And I 11 think that's just common hospitality when someone 12 comes. 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) During the period of 14 time that the Personnel Board was not operating, do 15 you have any knowledge whatsoever about appointments 16 that were made during that time or any decisions that 17 were made with regard to priests coming into the 18 diocese? 19 A. No. There was no way I could have 20 information on that. I never saw the archbishop. I 21 never saw the chancery office. And so I was never 22 consulted for anything of that nature, no. 23 Q. When you became the archbishop in 1974, do 24 you recall whether it was a concern of yours at all 25 as to what may have happened with respect to the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 819 1 admission of priests into the diocese during that 2 period of time where there was no Personnel Board? 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. The 4 question is vague and ambiguous, asking the 5 Archbishop what his concerns were. It fails to 6 identify what your -- was he concerned? Was he 7 worried? Was he -- 8 MR. TINKLER: I asked if he had any 9 concerns. 10 THE WITNESS: I cannot recall any specific 11 concerns that I had of any personnel at that time. I 12 was simply overwhelmed with knowing that I was now 13 becoming the archbishop, and where do you start. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, when you were 15 overwhelmed in that way, where did you start? 16 A. Well, I think we started with one thing at 17 a time. I had no idea -- I knew parishes. I knew 18 parish life. I had been a parish for many years -- 19 rather, a pastor for many years. I felt I knew most 20 of the priests, many of the priests. Some I did not 21 know, obviously, because they simply weren't in my 22 area, but I knew a good number. So I wasn't really 23 heavily concerned about that area. 24 I knew nothing about financing. I knew 25 nothing about our financial obligations. I was to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 820 1 discover that the Archdiocese had a very heavy debt 2 due to a great deal of construction of schools and 3 churches, hospitals, orphanages during the 1950's, 4 and our indebtedness was considerable. It was 5 something like, when I took over, about $8 million of 6 indebtedness, and that's in 1974 dollars. So that 7 was a heavy concern. 8 And I needed to find out how the schools 9 were functioning. So we had to meet with school 10 boards in all of our parochial schools. I have a 11 great number that we had; we had like 25, 26 at that 12 time. I had to worry about hospitals. St. Joseph's 13 Hospital, even though it was separately incorporated, 14 we had other hospitals in existence at that time. 15 So there was just a great deal of 16 administration that I needed to become aware of if I 17 was going to be a responsible administrator, along 18 with the others. That's what I mean by being rather 19 overwhelmed. In other words, not having had the 20 experience in those areas, knowing nothing about 21 them, I had to start from scratch. 22 Q. You had to learn the areas? 23 A. Exactly. 24 Q. So is it fair to say at least initially 25 during your tenure, you spent a lot of time learning CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 821 1 new areas that you were not familiar with? 2 A. Absolutely. 3 Q. And you did not consider the priests 4 themselves to be one of the areas that you needed to 5 particularly study when you first became archbishop? 6 A. Right. I knew -- like I said, I knew 7 something about priesthood. I knew a lot about being 8 pastors, and I felt that was something that I was 9 familiar with and didn't have to learn from scratch, 10 but the other areas I definitely had to introduce 11 myself to. 12 Q. Looking back, is there any time frame you 13 can put on that initial period when you were still 14 learning, or did it continue? 15 A. I think learning is a lifetime 16 experience. 17 Q. But as far as from an administrative point 18 of view? 19 A. I suppose I found my walking legs after 20 about three years with everything, but even then 21 changes such -- major changes had to be introduced 22 into the diocese, that there were brand new things 23 that had to be learned: computerization of your 24 possessions, and looking at properties, projecting 25 new parishes; the explosive growth of Albuquerque and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 822 1 Santa Fe, as well, where to project new parishes. 2 All of these things were new areas that I had to look 3 at. 4 Q. During, let's say, the first five years of 5 your tenure, do you recall whether you had any 6 particular focus on the priesthood itself during that 7 five years? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Vague and 9 ambiguous, "focus on the priesthood." 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Focus on the priests 11 within your diocese? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: With regard to what 13 particular subject? 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Their fitness? 15 A. My focus on the priests during those 16 initial years was what I would call unity. 17 Q. What do you mean by "unity"? 18 A. I'll be happy to explain. The men, during 19 the tenure of Archbishop Davis, we were seldom 20 brought together as a body of priests either for 21 continuing education or for spiritual retreats and so 22 on. He had interest, but he fairly well let everyone 23 function independently. My desire was to bring a 24 sense of cohesiveness and of support and a bonding 25 together during my tenure. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 823 1 I had also entered as an archbishop during 2 a time when there were some strained feelings between 3 priests. We had a large number of priests born in 4 New Mexico bilingual, Hispanic background. We were 5 trying to move the pastoral work to be able to meet 6 the needs of the Spanish-speaking and the increased 7 number of people arriving from Spanish-speaking 8 countries. 9 There were some others who felt that that 10 was not necessary. There was disagreement, some 11 tensions this way. I felt I had to try to bind them 12 together to, in a sense, unite them in common goals 13 so we could all go forward together and overcome 14 those tensions. That's what I mean about trying to 15 build unity and community. 16 Q. Was that your primary concern during those 17 first five years with respect to dealing with the 18 priests in your diocese? 19 A. That and spiritual growth of the men. 20 Those were two areas actually that were very key in 21 my mind. 22 Q. What do you mean by "spiritual growth of 23 the men"? 24 A. Bringing them together for days of 25 spiritual reflections upon what I call the spiritual CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 824 1 goals of their priesthood. They had gone through the 2 '60's, and the early '70's were no easier. There 3 were an awful lot of conflicting values in our 4 society that were showing up in their own lives. The 5 emphasis that we would place upon -- in other words, 6 let's not get lost in all that is surrounding us and 7 forget who we are as priests, and trying to refocus 8 that attention upon priesthood, our prayerful 9 obligations, our own spiritual growth and 10 development, and not only growth as administrators or 11 executives of parishes, but rather spiritual leaders 12 and shepherds of people. 13 Q. With respect to that concern that you had, 14 what type of action did you take to enhance that? 15 A. I invited the men at the beginning every 16 two months to a general gathering. So six times a 17 year we would meet as a gathering of clergy. We did 18 that for two years. 19 Q. Was that the first two years? 20 A. The first two years. They then asked, 21 they said, "Archbishop, you know, it's difficult and 22 expensive to travel from so far to come down for a 23 day's meeting. Could we expand this or reduce the 24 number?" 25 We reduced the number then to four, then CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 825 1 to overnight meetings twice a year, and then it 2 finally evolved to what they asked would be a four- 3 to five-day general meeting of the clergy at least 4 once a year. And that is retained to this day. 5 So they have a general meeting of the 6 clergy on Monday through Thursday, and we initiated 7 that about, I'd say I suppose 12 years ago or so. 8 And that would be five days totally dedicated to 9 topics of both ministry, of improvement of their 10 ministry and improvement of their own spiritual life 11 as priests. 12 In addition to that, I invited the 13 deaneries to set their schedule to meet hopefully 14 once a month, the day that they would choose, to 15 invite the priests of the respective deaneries to 16 meet together both for prayer and for discussion of 17 common pastoral needs, and then to share meals 18 together, so that they could begin to build that bond 19 of unity. That has continued in these last 20 20 years. 21 I think that we overcame our divisiveness 22 to a very, very great extent and replaced it with a 23 strong sense of unity and a bond of mutual concern. 24 Q. How about problems that arose regarding a 25 particular priest during, let's say, the first five CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 826 1 years of your tenure? Did you handle all the 2 problems, or did you delegate that responsibility? 3 A. Both. Both. I had a vicar general, who 4 was Father Arthur Tafoya at that time, and he would 5 assist me. So if an individual was brought to my 6 attention with whom I could meet, I would normally 7 meet with that person, or if he had to go out of town 8 to meet him, I would ask the vic general to meet with 9 that person. 10 Q. Was Bishop Tafoya, then Father Tafoya, the 11 vicar general for the first five years? 12 A. He was a vicar general until his 13 nomination as bishop of Pueblo, Colorado. 14 Q. Whatever year that was? 15 A. Yeah. He -- I think it was 1980. So he 16 served as my vic general I believe for six years, six 17 to seven years. 18 Q. So is it fair to say that during those six 19 or seven years, any type of difficulty that might 20 arise with a priest would have either been handled by 21 either yourself or Father Tafoya? 22 A. That's fair to say. If it was not what I 23 would call of a, you know, of a personal nature, if 24 it was just, oh, the books weren't being kept well or 25 whatever, I would ask the dean to visit, because the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 827 1 deans were also designated as assistants to me in 2 their particular area to make certain that procedures 3 of the church were followed by the respective 4 pastors. 5 Q. With respect to complaints that may have 6 been received from parishioners about a particular 7 priest, is it fair to say during 1974 to 1979 that 8 either you or Father Tafoya would deal directly with 9 those complaints? 10 A. Yes, I would say we covered most of them. 11 Q. Were there any other priests within your 12 diocese during that time frame that dealt with 13 complaints of parishioners? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: To the extent that you 15 remember, Archbishop. It's now over 20 years ago. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I would just say, I 17 did not hesitate to invite my dean if it was 18 appropriate to do so, because distance, you're 19 familiar with distances in New Mexico, and it's not 20 easy to just hop in your car and travel 230 miles one 21 way to meet with someone and come back. So the deans 22 are there to facilitate that. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) How about with respect 24 to leaves of absence where a priest might request a 25 leave of absence from the diocese, would you be the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 828 1 one from 1974 through 1979 who would handle such a 2 request? 3 A. The bishop is the ultimate person who 4 grants that. He's the authority for that. He may 5 handle it personally, or it may be his vicar general, 6 it may be his chancellor who would talk with the 7 individual priest for whatever specific need the 8 priest needed time off. 9 Q. But, ultimately, the final decision would 10 pass your desk? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. Do you recall when Father Sigler requested 13 a leave of absence? 14 A. Yes, I -- excuse me. 15 MS. KENNEDY: I -- okay. I'm sorry. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And what do you recall 18 about that? 19 A. I recall, first of all, that it occurred 20 very shortly after my ordination as an archbishop, 21 within a week or two, and I think his contact with me 22 was probably by phone. He informed me that his 23 parents were ill, and that he would like permission 24 to leave the parish and go back and be close to his 25 parents. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 829 1 Since he was not a priest of our own 2 archdiocese, he was not incardinated in our 3 archdiocese, I really had no control over his 4 personal life. And so I granted him permission for 5 that, and then we looked for another individual 6 priest to replace him in his assignment. 7 Q. Do you actually remember that? 8 A. I remember that I got a call clearly. 9 I've given deposition on Father Sigler now about 10 three different times, and that type of discussion 11 has come up. So that's what's been fixed in my mind 12 right now. 13 Q. Have you reviewed Father Sigler's file? 14 A. Not his file, no, I haven't had access to 15 the file. 16 Q. Do you recall him resigning at this same 17 time period when he wanted to take a leave of 18 absence? 19 A. Well, he didn't have to resign because he 20 really wasn't pastor. He was an administrator. And 21 according to the Code of Canon Law, he does not have 22 any permanent assignment. So he can be relieved with 23 an administrative decision. 24 Q. So if he used the language in 25 correspondence like tendering his resignation, that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 830 1 would be incorrect or not in accord with canon law? 2 A. It's not important. He was simply saying, 3 "I would like to inform you that because of the need 4 of my parents, I need to return home. You're going 5 to have to find someone else to fill" -- 6 Q. Okay. And it was your opinion at the time 7 that you really had no say about that in any event? 8 A. No. He was here as long as he wanted to 9 be here and as long as he was doing his job, but 10 since he was not an incardinated priest, I could not 11 refuse that request. 12 Q. Do you recall at the time that he was 13 consulting with you about leaving this diocese, that 14 you also during that same period of time, you had 15 made an assignment of Father Sigler to an Albuquerque 16 parish? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You don't remember that? 19 A. Not at all. 20 Q. Previously marked in your deposition in 21 January is Exhibit 12, which is Jason Sigler's file, 22 his personnel file, and there's a letter dated 23 September 13, 1974, I'm going to put it before you, 24 which is one of the pages within Exhibit 12. I would 25 ask you to review that letter. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 831 1 A. (Witness referred to document.) 2 Q. Have you reviewed that Exhibit 12? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Or that page from Exhibit 12? Does that 5 refresh your memory at all as to the circumstances 6 surrounding Sigler's request to leave? 7 A. The dates are, like I said, shortly after 8 my ordination. Exactly. The one thing that I do not 9 recall at all is having extended to him to consider 10 the possibility of an assignment somewhere in 11 Albuquerque. I don't recall that at all. No parish 12 even comes to mind. 13 Q. With the exception of that one part of the 14 letter, does it seem accurate? 15 A. Yes, uh-huh. Yes, he wanted to go home 16 because of his parents, and things seemed to be in 17 order. He had a place where he was going to go, and 18 the officials in Lansing were ready to accept him 19 there, and the rest of it is correct, um-hm. 20 Q. Did you contact the officials in Lansing? 21 A. I don't recall personally calling them to 22 inform them that he was going, but I believe I would 23 have asked -- normally I would have asked the 24 chancellor simply to place a call. He places all 25 calls like that between one chancellor and another. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 832 1 He provided the address of the church, the name of 2 the pastor, and so forth for that information. 3 Q. Do you recall who your chancellor was 4 right when you became the Archbishop? 5 A. At that time it was Father Lucian Hendren. 6 Q. And he remained your chancellor for about 7 seven years; correct? 8 A. Yes, about six, seven years, I guess. 9 Q. Do you recall directing Father Hendren to 10 contact the Lansing diocese? 11 A. I do not recall any direct or verbal 12 instruction. 13 Q. Do you recall whether or not you reviewed 14 Father Sigler's personnel file when he came to you 15 requesting this leave? 16 A. No, I did not review his file, no. 17 Q. Are you sure of that? 18 A. I am certain of that. 19 Q. Is it fair to say that as of the date that 20 he made -- September 13, 1974, when he wrote this 21 letter, that you had never reviewed his file? 22 A. I had not. 23 Q. Was it your practice -- what would cause 24 you during that, when you first became Archbishop, to 25 even go into a priest file, what type of event? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 833 1 A. I suppose if I were writing a priest a 2 letter, thanking him for his service at such-and-such 3 a parish because he is being transferred to another 4 parish, I would have wanted to find out what date he 5 was assigned to that parish so that I could say thank 6 you for X number of years in that parish, and that 7 would simply have been to look at his letter of 8 assignment. 9 Q. Would you routinely have gone into a 10 priest file when a priest requested incardination? 11 A. If they are requesting incardination and 12 have been with us a number of years, the very fact 13 that he was with us would have indicated that what's 14 in his file would have been positive, that he had 15 been allowed, in fact, to function, but it wouldn't 16 have necessitated my going into his personnel file. 17 What I would have been concerned about and 18 was, about anyone who requested incardination, was 19 how they were functioning at this time and what the 20 priests of that particular deanery or others who may 21 have known him, how they felt regarding that 22 particular individual. 23 So we would ask those priests to give us 24 in writing their own personal evaluation. 25 Q. Of the priest, of the one who is seeking CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 834 1 incardination? 2 A. Yes, when he reached that point for a 3 final judgment on him. 4 Q. Do you recall if it was your practice to 5 -- strike that. As I understand your last response, 6 you're saying you would not go back into someone's 7 personnel file and review their history? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Simply because they wanted to be 10 incardinated? 11 A. Like I mentioned to you, if an individual 12 had already served in the diocese for a long period 13 of time, I was more concerned about their work with 14 us and the evaluation of a priest regarding that work 15 than I was with what their own history may have been, 16 because their history would have been reviewed by the 17 then archbishop who had accepted them into the 18 diocese to begin with. 19 Q. So, for instance, in Father Sigler's case, 20 the fact that he had been accepted into the 21 Archdiocese by Bishop Davis would have been the 22 reason that you saw no -- you were not compelled to 23 look at his personnel file when he sought 24 incardination? 25 A. That is right, and that would have been CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 835 1 true of anyone else. 2 MS. KENNEDY: It's a little late, but I 3 have to put an objection on. There's no evidence 4 that this priest, this former priest, Jason Sigler, 5 ever sought incardination from this Archbishop. The 6 incardination request clearly in the documentations 7 you already have and that are marked as Exhibit 12 to 8 the prior deposition show that any mention of 9 incardination occurred during the tenure of 10 Archbishop Davis, none during the tenure of 11 Archbishop Sanchez. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall Father 13 Sigler returning from his leave of absence? 14 A. Yes. Again, as I said, I have been 15 deposed in questions asked about Father Sigler now 16 three times, and information that has surfaced and 17 now is part of my memory is that he did call from, I 18 would assume his place of ministry in Michigan, and 19 asked whether or not there would be an opening of any 20 kind of assignment for him. And the reason that he 21 was inquiring was because, apparently, his parents 22 were in better health, and he would like to return 23 here for ministry. 24 I told him that I would place his request 25 before the Personnel Board to see what their reaction CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 836 1 would be. I assume that I did that because 2 subsequently, in response to a letter that he wrote 3 summarizing the phone call, I indicated that I had, 4 in fact, discussed it, and that we would be happy to 5 receive him back, and he would be able to return. I 6 didn't indicate a specific assignment at that time. 7 That would have to be determined. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 837 1 2 3 4 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Father -- Archbishop 6 Sanchez, when you allowed Father Sigler to come back, 7 did you speak with anybody personally regarding what 8 he had been doing for the last year or two? 9 A. I did not personally. A letter did come 10 from the pastor where he had been working. And 11 normally that type of discussion goes on between the 12 chancellor and the chancellor of the diocese or the 13 pastor where the person has been working. 14 The letter that apparently stated that 15 Father Jason Sigler at that time had been working in 16 that specific parish in Michigan, had been working 17 very effectively, a hard worker, was a positive 18 recommendation for him. It contained no negative 19 reflection. 20 Q. And so you did not call the individual who 21 wrote the letter? 22 A. I did not personally. I did not 23 personally. I do not recall calling the man 24 personally. 25 Q. And is it fair to say that at that point CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 838 1 in time, you didn't even check to see if he'd 2 actually gone to the parish that he had previously 3 told you he was going to go to? 4 A. Except that the letter that had arrived. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Archbishop, when you received the letter, 21 the question I'm asking you is that when you received 22 the letter from Hazel Park, Michigan, which is a part 23 of Exhibit 12, dated February 1, 1976, did you at 24 that time check to see if that was in fact the same 25 parish that Father Sigler had previously told you he CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 839 1 was going to go work at when he left New Mexico? 2 A. I do not recall checking that 3 specifically, no, sir. 4 Q. You say you brought this request before 5 the Personnel Board. If that were the case, would 6 the subject matter be the subject of Personnel Board 7 minutes? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Calls for 9 speculation. 10 THE WITNESS: Normally, the subject of the 11 minutes, as I can recall, would have been a definite 12 assignment. When a definite assignment was given, 13 those things would have been put down in the 14 Personnel Board minutes. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Although, as I 16 understand it, you're indicating that there may not 17 have been anything in the minutes about just the 18 general subject? 19 A. Just the discussion, there may not have. 20 Q. Back when you first were approached by 21 Father Sigler to leave New Mexico shortly after your 22 ordination, did you know him prior to that? 23 A. No, sir, I did not. 24 Q. Did you discuss Father Sigler with any 25 individuals within the diocese at that time when he CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 840 1 made the request? 2 A. I can't recall. Twenty years is a long 3 time. 4 Q. Did you have any contact with Father 5 Sigler during that period of time that he was outside 6 the State of New Mexico? 7 A. No, sir, I recall nothing. 8 MR. TINKLER: This is a good place to 9 stop. 10 (A discussion was held off the record.) 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, when you 12 first granted Father Sigler's request to leave New 13 Mexico, were you aware at that time that he had ever 14 been to the Servants of the Paraclete? 15 A. I was not. 16 Q. When you were on the Personnel Board 17 those three years, at least we know those three years 18 -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you recall any instances where a priest 21 came before the Personnel Board regarding the issue 22 of whether or not he should go to the Servants of the 23 Paraclete or not? 24 A. Normally, they would never have come to 25 the Personnel Board for that discussion. That would CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 841 1 have gone to the archbishop. 2 Q. So is it at least your memory that while 3 you were on the Personnel Board, the Servants of the 4 Paraclete was not a subject? 5 A. No, not at all. 6 Q. Is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. You've already indicated that at least the 9 individuals on the Personnel Board caused it to be 10 disbanded one way or another. Was this a type of 11 revolt against Archbishop Davis? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object to the term 13 "revolt." Vague and ambiguous, especially in an 14 ecclesiastical context. Possible exception of Martin 15 Luther. 16 MR. BENNETT: Give or take a few heretics. 17 THE WITNESS: I think it was a statement 18 by the Personnel Board that whatever recommendations, 19 and I do not recall what we were discussing at that 20 time, whatever we were -- the issues before us were 21 not being received and acted upon; that he was acting 22 more independent; that it was a statement that 23 perhaps the need of a personnel board was not vital 24 to him. We were only an advisory capacity, and since 25 advice was not being accepted, perhaps it was saying CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 842 1 that he didn't appreciate the kind of advice. That's 2 fine. So we simply disbanded. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall whether 4 you and your other fellow members of the Personnel 5 Board were concerned about the appointments that he 6 was making as being unsafe or inappropriate? 7 A. I don't know if it's so much unsafe. I 8 think that it was, as I mentioned, there were little 9 concerns about ethnic assignments, language ability 10 assignments in certain parishes. It could have been 11 a variety of things, even one priest being able to 12 work well with another priest. And whatever 13 recommendations we were offering at that time 14 apparently were not being followed. 15 And it must have been rather consistent 16 because I don't think that we would have taken that 17 type of drastic action over simply one or two 18 recommendations. It must have been over a period of 19 time. 20 Q. Do you recall who else was on the 21 Personnel Board in '72? 22 A. No. You had that list in '69. I don't 23 know who would have been in '72. Perhaps some of 24 them. 25 Q. But you don't recall for sure? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 843 1 A. No, I have no idea. 2 Q. Do you recall if there were any particular 3 members of the Personnel Board who were instrumental 4 in causing it to disband? 5 A. I don't remember individuals at all. I 6 just remember that that, in fact, occurred. I was 7 chairman, as you find there; so maybe I was 8 instrumental. I just don't recall. But apparently 9 it was just a bit of frustration. 10 Q. You indicated earlier that you assumed 11 there was a file for the Servants of the Paraclete 12 that would be separate from the priest files where 13 general correspondence would go into; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. And my assumption was based on the 16 fact that you normally have files for various 17 religious communities. At least that would be my 18 way. I can't assume for Archbishop Davis. He was 19 certainly another man, and how he dealt with things 20 was entirely his own style. Period. 21 Q. Well, by "religious communities," when you 22 use that term, what does that include? 23 A. Religious orders: Franciscans, Jesuits, 24 Dominicans, Sons of the Holy Family, Blessed 25 Sacrament communities, Servants of the Paraclete, and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 844 1 then many women's religious communities that I'm not 2 going to take time to mention. 3 Q. Was the Pecos Benedictine Monastery a 4 religious community? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. And is that an order? 7 A. That is a religious order of Benedictines. 8 Q. So there would have been a file, at least 9 while you were archbishop, for the Pecos Benedictine 10 Monastery? 11 A. Right. And the file for any of these 12 religious communities, just for clarification's sake, 13 is not a personnel file. It is a file regarding 14 whatever general correspondence would come from those 15 communities. And for those orders who are working in 16 the Archdiocese, who had specific assignments for a 17 parish here, a parish there, then there would be more 18 correspondence because they were charged with a 19 certain parish. 20 The correspondence with the Servants of 21 the Paraclete had perhaps some correspondence 22 regarding a very small parish, Our Lady of Assumption 23 parish in Jemez Springs. And since they had priests 24 there, they would care for that little parish. 25 They're not many people. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 845 1 Q. Were the Servants of the Paraclete in that 2 regard, where they actually were taking care of a 3 parish, were they under your jurisdiction? 4 A. When I was pastor, they had responsibility 5 for that little parish, but they designated one 6 person so that I knew who it was that was in fact 7 ministering to the people of that little parish, and 8 it would be that person with whom I would have any 9 correspondence. Again, since it was very small and 10 is, there was not much activity. 11 Q. But during whatever period of time that 12 they operated with one of their individual priests in 13 that parish, he, that individual priest, would be 14 subject to your jurisdiction; is that correct? 15 A. Yes, right, for his ministry to the 16 people, exactly. That does not give me any 17 jurisdiction over their internal affairs as a 18 community. All religious orders are independent that 19 way. 20 Q. And what's your understanding of how 21 religious orders relate as far as accountability to 22 the Archdiocese? 23 A. They're accountable to any bishop in the 24 diocese where they're located, principally for their 25 ministry in that diocese, if in fact they enjoy a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 846 1 ministry. If a religious community has been 2 assigned, like, say, the Blessed Sacrament priests 3 are assigned responsibly to take care of St. Charles 4 Church, the Franciscans in Santa Fe are assigned to 5 take care of the cathedral parish of St. Francis, in 6 that capacity, as pastors to the people in that 7 parish, they have accountability to the local bishop. 8 For their internal affairs, their own 9 life, their own decisions, that's totally independent 10 of the bishop. They handle that internally. 11 Q. And during your tenure as archbishop, were 12 there ever occasions where you were asked at all to 13 participate in any internal affairs of any religious 14 orders? 15 A. That's a very general question. Yes. I 16 can cite one for you as an example. The Franciscans, 17 who have been here in New Mexico since 1598, had 18 their mother house stationed in Cincinnati. So all 19 of the decisions for the Franciscans who served in 20 our Archdiocese were really being made in 21 Cincinnati. Many of the Franciscans who had worked 22 out here for many years were desirous of establishing 23 their own administrative offices here, that they 24 would become their own province separate from 25 Cincinnati. And they felt they had the manpower to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 847 1 do it. 2 So they worked toward that point, and they 3 asked me to join with them in studying the 4 feasibility of establishing their own province. 5 That study went over, I suppose, three, 6 four years, before they finally decided that they 7 would in fact establish their own province and 8 separate from their former province in Cincinnati. 9 They did act on that about five years ago, 10 six years ago. They are an independent province 11 named Our Lady of Guadalupe province. Their 12 administrative offices are here in Albuquerque. 13 Q. And once they accomplished that 14 establishment of the province, did you have any 15 jurisdiction over them? 16 A. No. Again, they're independent that way. 17 Q. With respect to the Pecos Benedictine 18 Monastery, during the first years of your tenure, 19 what, if any, responsibility did you have to that 20 monastery? 21 A. Actually, none, because they did not have 22 any specific ministry designated to them by myself or 23 my predecessor. They would cover a weekend in one 24 specific parish or another -- oh, I take it back. 25 They did have responsibility for one small parish in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 848 1 San Miguel, I believe it was, one of the 2 Benedictines, and so I had contact with that 3 individual. But the rest of the community was 4 totally independent. They had no other ministry. 5 Q. Do you know, do you recall the name of the 6 individual Benedictine that you did have contact 7 with? 8 A. No, I do not. I can picture him, but I 9 can't recall his name. 10 Q. Do you recall if during the first years of 11 your tenure, you had any meetings with any of the -- 12 I don't know if "superiors" is the right word, but 13 the leaders of the Benedictine Monastery? 14 A. Not meetings. They did invite me to the 15 monastery for ordinations of men to the priesthood. 16 They had their own seminarians for their community 17 who were studying throughout the world, really, 18 somewhere in Rome, and as those men would complete 19 their studies and were in fact promoted for 20 ordination, the abbott of the monastery would invite 21 me to come to the monastery to ordain the man either 22 to the deaconite or to the priesthood. And so I 23 would go there for those occasions. 24 They were always very hospitable, I have 25 to acknowledge. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 849 1 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the 2 individuals at the monastery that you dealt with 3 during these early years of your tenure? 4 A. The one that comes to mind is Abbott 5 David. He was the abbott or superior of the 6 monastery for most of the years of my tenure. The 7 others specifically, I would recognize their names, 8 but they don't come to mind immediately. 9 Q. Do you remember an individual by the name 10 of Brother Marr or Murr? 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Would you spell that? 12 MR. TINKLER: If I can find the spelling. 13 Q. 14 15 A. No, it doesn't ring a bell at all. 16 Q. Does the name ring a bell at 17 all? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know, did the Benedictine Monastery 20 have a seminary in New Mexico? 21 A. No, not to my knowledge. No, not at all. 22 They had men, like I say, studying in Rome, I believe 23 at St. San Anselmo, and going to the various 24 universities there, and they probably had seminarians 25 in other seminaries conducted by Benedictines here in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 850 1 the United States, I would assume. I just -- I 2 didn't know and was not privy to their internal 3 affairs. I didn't know how many seminarians they had 4 either. 5 Q. With respect to the Sons of the Holy 6 Family, that order, when you became Archbishop, did 7 the Archdiocese have any kind of relationship with 8 the Sons of the Holy Family here in New Mexico? 9 A. Yes, we did, because the Sons of the Holy 10 Family were present in the Archdiocese to administer 11 to parishes, both close to each other in northern New 12 Mexico, one of Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz de la Canada, 13 and the second one in Chimayo, as well as they had a 14 chaplain for the Santuario de Chimayo, which is apart 15 from the parish. So they administered those two 16 parishes and that one sanctuary or pilgrimage site. 17 In their capacity as pastors and pastoral servants, 18 they were responsible to me as the Archbishop. 19 Q. When you became Archbishop, was that 20 already the case? 21 A. Oh, yes. They had been serving, oh, I 22 don't know when they first came to New Mexico, but 23 they came even prior to my predecessor. They had 24 been in New Mexico for many years, many years. 25 Q. And was it your understanding that they CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 851 1 had always been serving the Santa Cruz parish? 2 A. For as long as I can remember. It 3 probably goes -- I don't know what it goes back to, 4 certainly to the '30's, I would imagine. 5 Q. What's your understanding of how that 6 happens, when an order from obviously outside the 7 State of New Mexico comes into the State of New 8 Mexico? Do they contact the diocese, or do you know 9 how that works because there's already -- 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Generally, or -- 11 MR. TINKLER: Generally -- 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- are you referring to 13 the Santa Cruz parish? 14 MR. TINKLER: Well, the Santa Cruz parish, 15 if you know. 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object. The 17 Archbishop has no knowledge of how the supervisory 18 authority over the Santa Cruz parish occurred. He's 19 speculating that it might have happened as early as 20 1930. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the 22 history is. It could even go before that. I have no 23 way of knowing how the bishop at that time, whoever 24 he was, contacted them. But I can just say generally 25 today, bishops receive letters from religious CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 852 1 communities, men's or women's, saying that, we would 2 like to establish a ministry in your Archdiocese. We 3 are involved in this specific ministry of either 4 health care or teaching or parish work or whatever. 5 They identify themselves. "And if you have need, 6 we'd be happy to talk with you." That's one way. 7 Another way, a bishop would say, "I would 8 like to open a new school. I'm going to need some 9 teachers. I'm going to need -- I'd like to have some 10 religious nuns." And so he sends a general letter to 11 an organization that then puts it on a mailing list 12 to all the religious communities in the country, 13 advertising for sisters, and hoping that we would get 14 some responses. 15 So it can either be initiated by bishop or 16 initiated by the religious community, the contact, 17 the first contact. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) With respect to the 19 Santa Cruz parish at the time that you were 20 Archbishop, were they the suppliers of all priests to 21 that parish? 22 A. Yes, as far as I know. When I took over, 23 the priests who served the Santa Cruz parish were 24 Sons of the Holy Family. The priests who served 25 Chimayo were Sons of the Holy Family. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 853 1 Q. Did that remain the case during your 2 entire tenure? 3 A. Yes, they were always Sons of the Holy 4 Family. 5 Q. Even to the present day, as far as you 6 know? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And so those priests being members of that 9 order were subject to whatever their own rules were; 10 is that your understanding? 11 A. Yes. And their mother house, the 12 provincial house, was back in Maryland, in Silver 13 Spring, I think it is, Silver Spring, Maryland. 14 Q. Did you know any of the leaders of the 15 Sons of the Holy Family order? 16 A. I knew the pastor and -- mostly, the 17 pastor. Sometimes I'd know the assistant, but I 18 wouldn't meet with them that much. And once a year, 19 the provincial superior would come down to have his 20 visitation to the parish as to those men, to his 21 community, and they didn't always invite me up to 22 visit with them. Sometimes I would learn that they 23 had come and they had gone, but, whenever possible, I 24 always like to say at least hello to them by way of 25 courtesy. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 854 1 Q. And the provincial superior would be 2 someone from Maryland? 3 A. That's where his offices would be. I 4 don't know where they would be from, but that was his 5 offices, yes. 6 Q. And they would come down -- is it your 7 understanding they came down in a supervisory -- 8 MR. HARRIGAN: I'm going to object to the 9 form of that as being leading and outside the scope 10 of his personal knowledge. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I join. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You can still answer. 13 A. Religious superiors visit their own 14 communities to keep in contact with their own men or 15 own women. That's the general practice. 16 Q. And when you were Archbishop, did you 17 maintain priest files for each of the priests that 18 were running the Santa Cruz parish? 19 A. No. That wasn't my responsibility. The 20 individuals belonged to their community. I'd only 21 have a parish file. 22 Q. What would typically be in a parish file? 23 A. Oh, correspondence regarding their parish, 24 assignments of a new pastor, school information. If 25 they operate a Catholic school, who the principal of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 855 1 the school might be. If they're going to purchase a 2 new piece of property, they're requesting permission 3 from our consultors for that. If they're going to 4 enter into debt because they're going to renovate the 5 church or a school building, and they need permission 6 to enter into debt for that. Things of that nature, 7 administrative correspondence. 8 Q. During your tenure as Archbishop, were you 9 ever apprised of changes in the ministry there? For 10 instance, if a different priest came in who was a 11 member of the Sons of the Holy Family, would you 12 receive notification of that? 13 A. Yes. The religious communities normally 14 send me a letter saying, "These are the changes that 15 we are requesting approval for" beginning such a 16 date. They had met with their own communities, made 17 their own assignments, and were informing me that 18 Father so-and-so, perhaps more than one, would be 19 coming to this parish, and these other two priests 20 might be going out elsewhere. I would then send them 21 letters saying, "Thank you for the information. We 22 are granting faculties to these men" effective the 23 date of their assignment. 24 Q. Before you sent that letter back to the 25 religious community granting the faculties to the new CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 856 1 priest, did you review the new priest's file? 2 A. What file? 3 Q. Did you ask for a file? 4 A. No, I did not. I placed my trust in that 5 religious superior and in their own council members. 6 They know their men. I do not. And so I would 7 accept their recommendations as given. 8 Q. Did you consider the members of the Santa 9 Cruz parish within your jurisdiction as parishioners? 10 A. Oh, yes, they were my parishioners. They 11 certainly were. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 857 1 2 3 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: My watch has 12 noon. 5 I don't know what yours does. We have the lunch 6 ready, if we can break. 7 MR. TINKLER: That's fine. 8 (The deposition recessed at 12:00 p.m. 9 and resumed at 1:00 p.m. as follows:) 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, before you 11 start up, there's one matter I think that we might 12 clarify from this morning's session. There was 13 actually -- I think there was a mistake or a failure 14 of recollection. 15 There had been some testimony about the 16 Archbishop being involved in pontifical approval for 17 the Servants of the Paraclete. In fact, that order 18 was not the Servants of the Paraclete. They, I 19 think, obtained their pontifical approval before the 20 Archbishop became Archbishop. He was referring, I 21 believe, to the Good Shepherd Brothers. 22 You can clarify that on the record, if you 23 like, so there's not any confusion. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you want to do that? 25 A. Yes. I apologize. I knew I had CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 858 1 intervened for one of our New Mexico communities for 2 men for pontifical approval. I thought in my mind it 3 was the Servants of the Paraclete. And referring to 4 it now at noontime, it was the Brothers of the Good 5 Shepherd and their Brother Mathias worked here for so 6 many years. We've worked together for that. 7 So I apologize that I confused that with 8 the other example this morning with the Servants. 9 Q. So, in fact, you didn't probably ever 10 intervene -- 11 A. I did not. 12 Q. -- with respect to the Servants and their 13 mission or their ministry at Jemez? 14 A. I did not intervene for their ministry 15 there, and I thought I had intervened or, rather, had 16 worked with him with the Holy See in Rome for 17 pontifical approval, but in fact I did not. They had 18 already achieved that. 19 Q. With respect to, I guess, your orders -- 20 A. Right. 21 Q. -- the Sons of the Holy Family, you 22 indicated that those were -- that particular order 23 was already operating out and managing -- I don't 24 know if "managing" is the right word -- doing the 25 ministry for the Santa Cruz parish when you became CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 859 1 Archbishop? 2 A. Oh, yes, for both parishes, Santa Cruz and 3 Chimayo. 4 Q. Did you become, or did you yourself have 5 communication with the Silver Springs office of the 6 Sons of the Holy Family once you became Archbishop? 7 A. I don't recall any specific communication 8 with them other than if they were going to assign a 9 new priest or a new pastor to one of the two places, 10 I would normally reply to the provincial who would 11 have sent me a letter informing me of that, and I 12 would acknowledge receipt of his letter and inform 13 him that these men would be assigned to that position 14 as recommended, given the effective date of their 15 letter. 16 Q. And so was there a file at the Archdiocese 17 that was titled Sons of the Holy Family, or would it 18 have been the Santa Cruz parish file? 19 A. It would have been the Santa Cruz parish 20 file and Chimayo parish file. 21 Q. Do you recall if there was a Sons of the 22 Holy Family file? 23 A. No, I don't recall if there would have 24 been a specific file for that. 25 Q. Is it your recollection, though, that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 860 1 there was correspondence from Silver Springs at some 2 point during your tenure whenever they would change 3 the priests? 4 A. Yes, there was. There had to be. 5 Q. And you had to approve that; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And as I think you indicated, the only 8 factors you considered in that approval were whether 9 it was recommended that this priest become the priest 10 in Santa Cruz by the Sons of the Holy Father; is that 11 correct -- the Holy Family, I'm sorry? 12 A. Sons of the Holy Family. Yes, I took 13 their recommendation and simply accepted it and 14 assigned them to the positions they recommended. 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. And while you were on the Personnel Board, 21 did you -- strike that. Let me ask you, would that 22 be appropriate, that if a priest at the Sons of the 23 Holy Family did something that was in violation of 24 his duties and obligations, would that be a subject 25 that the Personnel Board would hear? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 861 1 MR. HARRIGAN: When you say "priests at 2 Sons of the Holy Family" -- 3 MR. TINKLER: At Santa Cruz. 4 MR. HARRIGAN: -- you mean at Santa Cruz? 5 THE WITNESS: Normally, nothing would be 6 written to us directly as a personnel board. Any 7 complaints that laity or anyone else may have would 8 go directly to the bishop's office. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And during your tenure 10 as Archbishop, did you ever receive any complaints 11 regarding a priest at the Santa Cruz parish? By that 12 I mean complaints that were on sexual misconduct. 13 A. None that I can recall at all. 14 Q. Did you know Luis Martinez, Father Luis 15 Martinez? 16 A. No, I don't know a Father Luis Martinez. 17 Q. How about Father Sierra, Frank Sierra? 18 A. There was a Father Sierra that came to the 19 Archdiocese from Colorado as a member of the Sons of 20 the Holy Family, but he came, oh, around -- I suppose 21 in the late '80's. Now, I don't know if there is 22 more than one Father Sierra, and I don't recall his 23 first name. I apologize on that. He was an older 24 man. He must have been, I would say retired or close 25 to retirement age when he arrived. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 862 1 Q. What was retirement age? 2 A. I would say, normally I think of 70. So I 3 would say he was either 70 or close to it when he 4 arrived. 5 Q. And this was when? 6 A. Oh, late '80's. 7 Q. And did you become acquainted with that 8 Father Sierra? 9 A. Just in his position of a priest serving a 10 parish but not as a personal friend. I just never 11 met him that often. 12 Q. But did he serve in the Santa Cruz parish 13 when he came in the late '80's? 14 A. I am not certain. I think he had two 15 assignments as recommended by his community, but I'm 16 not certain if it was Santa Cruz. By that time, the 17 Holy Family community had expanded their ministry to 18 four parishes, two beyond Santa Cruz and Chimayo. 19 They had asked to assume responsibility for Sacred 20 Heart parish in Albuquerque and St. Therese parish in 21 Albuquerque. 22 Q. When did they do that? 23 A. That was in the latter part of the '80's. 24 Q. How would they make that application? 25 A. That was done more on my own request of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 863 1 them. I had always found them good priests, 2 effective pastors and servants of the people. And so 3 I inquired of their community. This would have been 4 one of the letters to a provincial or perhaps when he 5 visited, whether they would be able to expand their 6 ministry in New Mexico. And eventually they were 7 able, and they took one parish first. That was 8 Sacred Heart. And then a couple of years later, St. 9 Therese. 10 Q. So there was communication between you and 11 the superior of the Sons of the Holy Family regarding 12 their expansion of their ministry? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So they sent additional priests to New 15 Mexico after that discussion? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Was the procedure the same with these 18 additional priests as far as your approval of the 19 priests for work in your parish? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Was there a particular individual at the 22 Sons of the Holy Family that you dealt with in that 23 regard? 24 A. Their provincial superior. 25 Q. Do you know his name? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 864 1 A. They've had two or three over those years, 2 and I just -- I don't recall which one was the 3 superior at that time. 4 Q. Do you remember the names of all three? 5 A. No, I don't. I'm just trying to recall. 6 I apologize. I don't have those names in mind. 7 MR. HARRIGAN: What time frame were you 8 asking about? 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, I would say middle to 10 late '80's. 11 MR. HARRIGAN: Okay. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Can you remember the 13 name of the provincial superior for the Sons of the 14 Holy Family when you became the Archbishop? 15 A. No, sir, I don't recall those names. I 16 apologize for not having those names in my mind, but 17 I seldom referred to them or associated with them. 18 You just don't keep names. 19 Q. When a priest would be sent from the Sons 20 of the Holy Family, would you be the individual that 21 would grant faculties to that priest? 22 A. Yes, at their recommendation. 23 Q. Is that how it worked with respect to any 24 orders in the State of New Mexico, if a priest within 25 an order was going to be serving your ministry, that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 865 1 you would grant faculties to that priest? 2 A. All priests who served within a given 3 diocese must receive faculties from the local bishop, 4 either directly from him or through his delegate. 5 Q. So the answer would be yes to that 6 question? You were the person -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- when you were Archbishop -- 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- who would grant faculties to all 11 priests within orders who were going to practice 12 ministry within this diocese? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. With respect to priests that were in 15 orders, was your procedure for approving those 16 priests and granting them faculty the same as you 17 described for Sons of the Holy Family? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. That is, you relied on the order's own 20 recommendation? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is it true that you did no further 23 investigation from the Archdiocese -- no 24 investigation from the Archdiocese was conducted with 25 respect to any priests that were practicing out of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 866 1 orders? 2 A. No, sir, no investigation was done. 3 Q. I assume that -- well, earlier you had 4 mentioned that the Pecos Benedictine Monastery also 5 had taken over one small parish, I believe? 6 A. (The witness nodded.) 7 Q. And so is it true that you would have 8 granted faculties to whichever priest did the 9 ministry at that parish? 10 A. Yes. That particular parish and that 11 particular priest had been assigned there by my 12 predecessor, and he simply continued until he left. 13 And when he left, the Benedictine Monastery no longer 14 served that community. We had to fill it with one of 15 our own men. 16 Q. Do you know when that was? 17 A. I can't give you an accurate date, sir. 18 It must have been in the '70's, perhaps the late 19 '70's. 20 Q. Were there other activities of the various 21 Pecos Benedictine Monastery monks, priests, or the 22 seminarians, whoever was located up there, where they 23 participated in other parish activities within the 24 State of New Mexico? 25 A. Only at the parish of Pecos itself where CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 867 1 the pastor would be away for his vacation period, two 2 weekends, he would ask the monastery to cover for 3 him. 4 Q. And in a situation like that, would that 5 priest that was going to cover have to contact you 6 and obtain faculties from you? 7 A. Normally, the pastor would be the one to 8 inform us that he was going to be leaving on vacation 9 and was asking a representative from the monastery to 10 assume that responsibility. In fact, it would be 11 granted to him through the pastor. 12 Q. Through the pastor that he was 13 substituting for? 14 A. Exactly. 15 Q. Does a pastor have the authority to grant 16 faculties? 17 A. No, but he was the designated person. In 18 other words, he dealt with the priests in the 19 monastery, asking one to cover for him, and that was 20 to celebrate Mass and to preach. So basically the 21 faculties granted him was to preach. That was it. 22 Q. And that was a limited grant of faculties? 23 A. Yes, because they weren't assigned there 24 as an associate or anything else. They were just 25 assigned to cover for the weekend and for the week CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 868 1 that he was gone. 2 Q. As opposed to the other instance where 3 they, at one time, maintained the ministry of the 4 parish, they would have all faculties; is that 5 correct? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Are you aware of any instances while you 8 were the Archbishop where either monks or -- say 9 monks from the monastery came and attended and 10 assisted with youth groups in Albuquerque, youth 11 church groups? 12 MR. HARRIGAN: Let me object that it's 13 compound. You're asking him does he know if they 14 ever attended, and then the second part of the 15 question was participated, and the answer may be 16 different. 17 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I don't know of any 18 instances where they would have worked with youth in 19 the Albuquerque area. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Earlier this morning you 21 indicated that it was your understanding that the 22 orders' accountability to the Archdiocese really was 23 somewhat limited; is that correct? 24 A. Limited to their ministry in the 25 Archdiocese. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 869 1 Q. Would you agree, though, that under the 2 canons, the archbishop has the obligation, or they 3 have the obligation to satisfy the archbishop with 4 respect to the morals that are being maintained 5 within the order? 6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The question is does he 7 agree that under the canons that the order has the 8 obligation to satisfy the archbishop as to the morals 9 of its priests, the order's priests? 10 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 11 MR. HARRIGAN: I'm going to object to the 12 form of the question as calling for an opinion 13 without a proper foundation being laid. I don't know 14 that the archbishop is a canon lawyer. 15 THE WITNESS: The archbishop does not have 16 that direct responsibility. That belongs to the 17 superior, normally the abbott of a men's monastery or 18 the religious superior of a women's community, simply 19 because I do not have supervisory authority over them 20 in their personal life, but I do have authority over 21 their ministry. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) With respect to the 23 orders, are you, as the Archbishop, the competent 24 ecclesiastical authority? 25 A. Competent for? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 870 1 Q. For an order within your diocese? 2 A. I'm the ecclesiastical authority of the 3 territorial area in which they are residing, 4 exactly. But they do not look to me to be 5 responsible for their life within their monastery. 6 That belongs to them and their own superiors within 7 the Benedictine community. 8 Q. I'm going to show you what's Canon 305 of 9 the canons. Why don't you read that? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Are you familiar with that canon? 12 A. No, I can't say I'm familiar with all the 13 canons. That is revised, and I have not studied it 14 specifically, but I am familiar with the general tone 15 of most of the canons. 16 Q. Are you familiar with the general tone of 17 that canon? 18 A. Yes, sir. See, if this canon is referring 19 to associations, there's a difference, a strict 20 canonical difference between associations of the 21 faithful and religious communities. It would be the 22 difference between a child playing sandlot baseball 23 and a major league player. 24 Associations of the faithful are simply 25 lay groups coming together as a devout group, praying CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 871 1 when they choose. Many of them are called third 2 order members. They're not really members of a 3 religious order. They're like associate members who 4 want to assume the same spirituality of the 5 community, but they are not members of, professed 6 members with vows of a religious community. They are 7 associations. 8 We have many associations and 9 organizations of religious in the Archdiocese. 10 Q. And you're saying, at least your reading 11 of Canon 305 is that it includes or specifically 12 relates to associations; correct? 13 A. It says, "all associations of the 14 Christian faithful," right. 15 Q. Is it your testimony that that does not 16 include such organizations as the Pecos Benedictine 17 Monastery or the Sons of the Holy Family? 18 A. I will not exclude it totally. We're 19 getting into canon law. I wish we had a canonist 20 here who could clarify it for us all. But the bishop 21 is invited into that monastery to -- because of the 22 concern within the monastery itself, and they 23 specifically invite him or another, because they 24 normally invite members of their own communities to 25 review their own spiritual growth and development. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 872 1 But if I were invited specifically for 2 that purpose, then I'm not intruding, I'm not 3 imposing myself upon their independence, but rather 4 I'm responding to their invitation, then I have 5 competence within that community. 6 Q. And you have the authority to take action 7 within that community? 8 A. Not to take action but to recommend action 9 to their superiors. 10 Q. What you've just described as your 11 authority, does that, in your opinion, have a base in 12 canon law? 13 A. Yes, that has a base in canon law, very 14 similar to what this says here that -- I think the 15 language it uses here, that -- if you want to use the 16 word "associations," which is "all associations" -- 17 or simply replace that, "all Christian faithful are 18 subject to the vigilance of competent ecclesiastical 19 authority whose duty it is to take care of that 20 integrity of faith and morals, that they're preserved 21 in them and to watch lest abuse creep into the 22 ecclesiastical discipline." 23 Any organization has chaplains assigned to 24 them to help them maintain their own spiritual growth 25 and development. Religious communities have their CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 873 1 superiors. Religious orders have their abbotts. And 2 if they live within the jurisdiction of any given 3 diocese, that bishop ultimately is there to respond 4 to help them in their needs that way. 5 Q. Does that bishop have any authority to 6 order them to act in any way? 7 A. No, he doesn't. 8 Q. Does that bishop have the authority to 9 remove the faculties from a priest that may well have 10 allegations made against him which warrant removal of 11 the faculties? 12 A. If in fact he were ministering in one of 13 the parishes of the diocese, he would have those 14 faculties removed if it warranted that. That's your 15 speculation again, um-hm. 16 Q. Right. I'm just saying that's the type of 17 authority you do have? 18 A. Yes, right. The bishop has authority over 19 all ministry in the diocese. 20 Q. Why don't you define for me the "ministry 21 in the diocese"? 22 A. Since we're speaking in reference to 23 religious communities, it is that service which 24 extends itself outside the religious order itself to 25 the public faithful, whether it be in parishes or as CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 874 1 chaplains at universities, chaplains in hospitals or 2 chaplains in penal institutions. Any type of public 3 service requires faculties to serve them. 4 Q. And if someone that is a member of a 5 religious community is going to be serving the public 6 in that way, then you have to grant faculties; is 7 that correct? 8 A. Right, um-hm. 9 Q. When you do that, is that something that's 10 done in writing? 11 A. If they're requesting faculties for an 12 assignment, if they have applied themselves to become 13 the state chaplain at New Mexico State Penitentiary, 14 yes, that assignment would be done in writing if it's 15 for faculties. 16 Q. What about in the instance of Santa Cruz 17 parish? 18 A. Any priest assigned as pastor or associate 19 pastor would receive that assignment in writing. 20 Q. Do you know, at least during your tenure, 21 would a copy of that assignment granting faculties 22 also be sent to the main office in Silver Springs? 23 A. The original is sent to the main office. 24 In other words, we send them approval of their 25 recommendations. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 875 1 Q. Rather than directly to the actual priest? 2 A. Yes. We don't bother because they get 3 that assignment from their superior. 4 Q. Okay. So that correspondence would flow 5 between the Archdiocese of Santa Fe's office and the 6 Silver Springs' office? 7 A. Um-hm. 8 Q. Is that correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If in fact that's where 11 -- 12 MR. TINKLER: The office is. 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- the office of the 14 order is. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. HARRIGAN: Assuming that what was done 17 when the Archbishop was the Archbishop was what was 18 done in your -- 19 THE WITNESS: That's assuming, right, 20 um-hm. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Earlier today, you 22 indicated that you had your own policy with respect 23 to how you dealt with the Servants of the Paraclete 24 and the assignment of priests there -- not the 25 assignment of priests but referral of priests to the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 876 1 Servants. Were you familiar when you became the 2 Archbishop with Archbishop Davis's policy with 3 respect to the Servants? 4 A. No, sir, I was not. 5 (Exhibit 18 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what is 8 marked as Deposition Exhibit 18. I'd ask if you 9 could review that. 10 A. (Witness referred to document.) 11 Q. Have you reviewed that document? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Have you ever seen that before? 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 877 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 878 1 2 Q. In any event, regardless of your knowledge 3 of this particular document, is it fair to say that 4 you did not follow this procedure with respect to 5 guests at the Servants of the Paraclete? 6 A. No, I did not. 7 MR. COLLIER: Counsel, can I read it? 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You had indicated in 9 your previous deposition that you had a policy of, in 10 certain instances, of destroying documents that were 11 received from therapists; is that correct? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 13 Mischaracterizes the Archbishop's prior testimony. 14 He didn't speak of it in terms of "policy." My 15 recollection of his deposition was that -- 16 MR. TINKLER: Practice. 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- he spoke of it in 18 terms of following requests made by the psychological 19 or the psychiatrist or the counselor as to what to do 20 with the document. It wasn't a policy that he set. 21 Mischaracterizes -- objection. Simply 22 that it mischaracterizes his prior testimony. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you want to clarify 24 that? 25 A. Documents that I would receive that were CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 879 1 classified as confidential with a stamp that said, 2 "This is to be destroyed after it has been read or 3 returned to us" would be destroyed or returned to the 4 center. 5 Q. Do you remember if Lovelace was one of the 6 entities or institutions from which you received such 7 correspondence? 8 A. I don't ever recall receiving any 9 correspondence from Lovelace. 10 Q. Do you recall if you received such 11 correspondence from the Servants, not from an 12 individual therapist but from the Servants of the 13 Paraclete? 14 A. I do recall receiving correspondence from 15 the Servants of the Paraclete marked this way. And 16 that correspondence began to be received, I believe, 17 in the '80's. 18 Q. And did you follow the direction on the 19 correspondence that you received from the Servants of 20 the Paraclete -- 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. -- with respect to either returning the 23 document to the center or destroying the document? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 MS. KENNEDY: Objection. Asked and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 880 1 answered. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Can you recall the names 3 of any therapists that you received those types of 4 instructions from during the time that you were the 5 Archbishop? 6 A. The instructions -- 7 Q. To destroy the document or return the 8 document to the therapist? 9 A. The instruction was not from the therapist 10 himself but from the cover letter, the signer of the 11 cover letter, because oftentimes included were three 12 or four different therapists or people who had worked 13 with the patient in different categories. So the 14 entire letter was asked to be destroyed, not just 15 from a single therapist. 16 Q. What you were just describing, was that 17 something that came from the Servants of the 18 Paraclete as opposed to from the therapist? 19 A. The therapists were included in it, and I 20 have to assume that was a policy that they all were 21 following together. 22 Q. Just so that I'm clear on this, though, 23 did you ever receive a letter directly or a report 24 directly from a psychiatrist or a psychologist or any 25 type of counseling therapist where that particular CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 881 1 therapist requested that you return the document or 2 destroy the document? 3 A. You're referring to any therapists? 4 Q. Right. 5 A. The therapist that I'm thinking of asked 6 me to make sure that the document would either be 7 destroyed or not allowed to be shown to the priest in 8 question. 9 Q. And what was the name of that therapist? 10 A. One therapist -- one, I am not including 11 others, that I have mind is a Dr. Joseph Van Den 12 Heuval. 13 Q. Do you have others in mind as well that 14 you received similar letters? 15 A. I haven't reflected upon others at this 16 moment. Letters, as I have indicated from the 17 Paracletes, Servants of the Paraclete, the directives 18 came simply stamped on each of the letters, and they 19 were multiple people, and I have to assume that each 20 of those multiple people agreed to that policy. 21 Q. Yes, but you don't know that? You just 22 assume that? 23 A. I don't know it. I have not spoken with 24 them. A lot of things we don't know, but you receive 25 a letter, and you have to follow the directives that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 882 1 are given, especially if it's dealing with what they 2 call confidential information. 3 Q. Do you recall receiving any letters from 4 the Servants of the Paraclete of that type of 5 confidential nature regarding Jason Sigler? 6 A. No, sir, I don't. I do not. 7 Q. How about regarding Father Smith? 8 A. No, not as a confidential type of letter, 9 no, not at all. 10 Q. Did you ever receive letters from other 11 institutions during your tenure regarding priests 12 such as Southdown? 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. This is 14 asked and answered. We went over Southdown in 15 January. 16 MR. TINKLER: Not to the extent that I'm 17 going to go through it. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Well, get to the 19 question. This has been asked and answered. 20 I'll let you go ahead, Archbishop, if you 21 can move it along. 22 THE WITNESS: I received communication 23 from Southdown, yes. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And that communication, 25 what did you do with it? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 883 1 A. I do not recall them -- I had one man who 2 went through their program, through the full program 3 that was there, and I was present for the exit 4 interview and for his signing of an agreement on 5 follow-up and so on that they required of him. 6 I do not recall receiving from them any 7 type of detailed explanation of his presence there or 8 his evaluation, but they were quite thorough, I 9 thought, in the exit interview to give me an idea of 10 what he had been through and the type of corrective 11 therapy that they were recommending for him and had 12 in fact offered to him during that time. 13 Q. And the "him" you're referring to, is that 14 Father Griego? 15 A. That is Father Griego. 16 Q. And you indicated you were present at this 17 exit interview? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Were you present at any other time during 20 his stay as Southdown? 21 A. No, I only made that one trip. It's so 22 far and quite expensive. 23 MR. COLLIER: Excuse me, Counsel. Could 24 we establish about what time frame you're talking 25 about here? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 884 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When was that? 2 A. The exit interview would have occurred in 3 March 1992. 4 Q. Other than Southdown, can you recall 5 receiving any -- well, strike that. Let me rephrase 6 it. Southdown did not request that you keep any 7 information confidential or return the document, did 8 they? 9 A. I don't recall it from them. 10 Q. Are you aware of any other institution 11 that you received correspondence from regarding a 12 priest where you were asked to either destroy the 13 document or return the document to the sender? 14 A. I do not recall any other requesting that 15 specifically, but all would have the caution that 16 this was confidential information and would be so 17 marked. 18 Q. Did you destroy the documents that were 19 marked confidential, or did you only destroy the 20 documents that were marked confidential and gave you 21 instructions to destroy the documents? 22 A. To the best of my recollection right now, 23 I certainly destroyed those that were asking that of 24 me. I do not believe I destroyed the others, 25 although I could not be certain. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 885 1 Q. You may have? 2 A. I may have followed the same action that I 3 had taken with those from Jemez Springs. 4 Q. When is the first time that you recall 5 hearing of a priest molesting a child? 6 A. As I testified in January, the first time 7 that I can recall, although there seems to be 8 evidence that it was brought to my attention by a 9 woman earlier, but I did not recall that at that 10 time, but the first instance that I recalled was 11 Father Jason Sigler, at that time, when he had been 12 present in St. Therese parish, and the pastor had 13 brought this information to my attention. 14 Q. Was that Father Hunt? 15 A. Father Hunt, yes. 16 Q. Do you recall in I believe approximately 17 1967, you were still at St. Pius; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you were the counselor? 20 A. Academic counselor. 21 Q. Academic counselor? 22 A. Yes, sir, and teacher. 23 Q. Do you recall an incident that occurred 24 during approximately 1967 while you were there where 25 allegations were made about Father Perrault -- is it CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 886 1 Perrault or Perrault? 2 A. Perrault. 3 Q. About him sexually molesting a child? 4 A. I do not recall any allegations being made 5 against him in 1967. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 887 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. Weren't you aware of the fact that Father 14 Smith had problems with young boys in his history 15 long before 1981. 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I object to the 17 question. It's vague and ambiguous. Are you saying 18 was the Archbishop aware before 1981 that Father 19 Smith had problems, or that Father Smith had problems 20 before 1981? 21 MR. TINKLER: Both. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I object. It's 23 compound. 24 MS. KENNEDY: It's a compound question. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Were you aware of the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 888 1 fact that Father Smith had in fact been accused of 2 molesting boys on numerous occasions? And weren't 3 you aware of that fact before 1981? 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The same objection. 5 THE WITNESS: Sir, I was not aware of 6 Father Smith accusing boys prior to an allegation 7 that was brought to my attention by a lady. 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In 1984? 9 MS. KENNEDY: Object. 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Is that correct? 11 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. 12 There's no facts to support the allegation was 1984. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the dates at 14 all. So I could not testify one way or the other on 15 your dates, but I made my statement. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Were you aware that at 17 least allegations had been made regarding Father 18 Donelan and his sexual misconduct with boys prior to 19 1981? Were you aware of it prior to 1981? 20 A. I was aware prior to 1981 that there was 21 concern raised about Father Ed Donelan in regard to 22 sexual activity prior to 1981, yeah. 23 Q. And wasn't the concern regarding the 24 sexual activity, didn't that cover the subject of 25 sexual activity with the boys at the Boys' Ranch? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 889 1 A. It surfaced from that particular area. 2 Q. And so you did not know before Father 3 Sigler was caught in 1981 that at least people 4 alleged that priests molested boys? 5 A. There was -- yes. 6 MS. KENNEDY: I object to the plural form 7 of that question. It assumes facts not in evidence. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: The Archbishop has 9 already answered the question. 10 MR. TINKLER: He's already answered. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 890 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 891 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. Do you remember when you went to the 15 Council of Bishops conference in 1985 where the issue 16 of priests' abuse of children and that whole subject 17 matter was discussed? Do you recall that? 18 A. Yes. It's the first time I ever heard the 19 word "pedophile." 20 Q. When you went to that conference, had you 21 already heard the allegations regarding Clive Lynn? 22 A. Yes, I think it would have happened prior 23 to that. 24 Q. I take it, though, when you heard the 25 allegations prior to the bishops' conference, the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 892 1 term "pedophilia" was never used? 2 A. No, I had never heard it before. 3 Q. Other than the instances we've identified, 4 that you've identified today with Father Donelan, 5 Father Sigler in '81, and now Father Lynn in '85, and 6 Father Smith in -- I'll tell you it's '83. 7 A. Is it? I don't remember. 8 Q. -- when you met with Up 9 through 1985, can you remember any other instances 10 where you received just complaints regarding priests 11 in your diocese and their alleged sexual misconduct? 12 A. No, sir, I cannot recall any other 13 instances. No, sir. 14 Q. When you received the complaints from 15 Father Hunt regarding Jason Sigler, did you then 16 investigate Jason Sigler's past? 17 A. No, sir, I did not. 18 Q. When you received the complaints regarding 19 Father Smith or the complaint from 20 regarding Father Smith, did you then review Father 21 Smith's file? 22 A. No, sir, I did not. 23 Q. Why? 24 A. I was concerned about the allegation at 25 hand and what was to be done in reference to that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 893 1 allegation, and I felt that the action I took was 2 reasonable, and I simply did not think of looking at 3 any past record. 4 At that time we did not have the knowledge 5 that we have now that there could possibly be 6 relatedness, a string of incidents. We just didn't 7 understand this whole concept of pedophilia. And so 8 that didn't occur to me even to look at a history, 9 nor had I had any reason to. No one had ever brought 10 any other allegations to mind. 11 Q. Regarding Father Smith? 12 A. Of these men. 13 Q. Or Father Sigler? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. With respect to Father Smith, though, you 16 had been informed over the -- in 1975 that he was 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 894 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Make sure you 9 understand. Are you asking about his information as 10 of 1975? 11 MR. TINKLER: Yes. 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Okay. As of '75. 13 THE WITNESS: In 1975, I knew very little 14 about Father Smith. He had suffered, apparently, a 15 broken ankle, had entered a hospital for treatment, 16 and the treatment continued. He was not healing, and 17 they discovered because of an apparent case of 18 diabetes, and he went into depression as a result of 19 this, and apparently the hospital felt it necessary 20 at that time to use more stringent methods of helping 21 a depressed individual, which they felt was 22 appropriate at that time. I'm not certain they would 23 consider it appropriate today. 24 And I was informed. I was not asked about 25 it. All of this was done at a great distance and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 895 1 never communicated to by any physician. I felt he 2 was there only for healing of a broken ankle. And 3 then subsequently received -- and I don't even recall 4 what all was in that letter, but I recall that he 5 received more treatment than just for a broken ankle. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q. Did you know that it was treatment by a 13 psychiatrist or a psychologist? 14 A. I recall it being treatment for his 15 depression. Now, who did the treating and how they 16 handled him was certainly up to the hospital, but I 17 knew that he had suffered depression because of the 18 failure of his ankle to heal. And apparently he went 19 into a depressive state. 20 Q. Did you have any discussions with the 21 treating doctor? 22 A. Never. 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 896 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And do you recall what 20 the basis of your thinking was as that being the 21 origin of his depression? 22 A. I think a person can go into depression 23 very easily when they discover that they have 24 something serious in their life, an illness that they 25 had not suspected, and they are extending their stay CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 897 1 in the hospital. Even a stay in the hospital that is 2 extended can cause depression on an individual when 3 you're far away from anybody else. And he was far 4 away from family, as well as from the diocese. I did 5 not suspect that that would cause depression for a 6 person, but apparently it did. 7 Q. What I'm trying to learn is at the time, 8 in 1975 -- 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. -- did you actually talk to anybody that 11 relayed that information to you, that he was 12 suffering from a depression because of his broken 13 ankle? 14 A. No, sir, just the information I received 15 from that hospital, just they must have communicated 16 to me -- I know I got communication from them, either 17 by phone or by mail, that he had been treated for a 18 broken ankle; that diabetes was discovered, and that 19 it was not healing; and that he was being treated for 20 depression. And then I don't even recall how long he 21 had to stay in the hospital before he returned home, 22 but I knew we were concerned about him. 23 Q. And that, what you've just described, is 24 that a memory you have, or have you reviewed some 25 documents that give you that understanding? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 898 1 A. I remembered him breaking an ankle and not 2 being able to come back for a long time. I recall 3 that he had diabetes. That was the first time I was 4 told. And that continued to plague him all of his 5 life, incidentally. And that they had to treat him 6 for his depression. And he continued with depressive 7 states as well. 8 Q. After that? 9 A. After that, yes. 10 Q. After he returned to the diocese? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is that correct? 13 A. After he returned to the diocese, yes, 14 sir. 15 (Exhibit 19 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, I'm handing 18 you what's marked as Exhibit 19. See if you can 19 review that. 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Let's go off the record 21 a moment. 22 (A recess was taken.) 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, have you had 24 an opportunity to review Exhibit 19? 25 A. Yes, sir. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 899 1 Q. Do you recall receiving that letter? 2 A. I don't recall it, but it was sent to me. 3 I recall just some of the occasion for it, in other 4 words, what Father Smith was going through, but I 5 didn't recall the exact letter. 6 Q. After having read the letter, does it 7 refresh your memory at all as to the circumstances 8 surrounding Father Smith's illness at the time? 9 A. Yes, it does. It brings back some of the 10 suffering he was going through. 11 Q. What do you now recall? 12 A. I recall this; that when he returned to us 13 from his hospital stay for the recovery of his ankle, 14 he was not the same man that he had been when he left 15 in this regard. He seemed not to have the confidence 16 in himself to be able to properly serve -- should I 17 repeat? He did not seem to have the confidence to be 18 able to serve an assignment and had asked me not to 19 give him a full-time assignment for quite a while 20 until he felt he had rebounded from his experience. 21 And I recall I placed him what we call in 22 residence without an assignment, and I think I even 23 placed him in more than one place. I have the 24 recollection that he was just here for a while and 25 there for a while, but the big thing I can recall was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 900 1 that he seemed to be -- I guess expressed a 2 dissatisfaction with his work in the Archdiocese, 3 that maybe he wasn't ordained for the diocesan 4 priesthood, maybe he should be doing something else, 5 and he actually then ultimately requested permission 6 of me to give him permission to seek a religious 7 community or perhaps even another diocese where he 8 might be happier or be able to find himself. 9 And so he was given that permission. I 10 don't recall how long he was gone, but he did go and 11 contact apparently some diocese or friends within 12 other dioceses to try to inquire whether he would be 13 able to enter another diocese or religious community 14 where he would find himself again. 15 And just there was something within our 16 own Archdiocese, maybe some of that tension that I 17 had expressed earlier this morning, I don't know what 18 it was that seemed to be bothering him, but this 19 letter then seems to be sort of a conclusion to that 20 search for himself, writing saying that he really was 21 trying to run away from his own self rather than from 22 a place, in that he had come to realize that there 23 was nothing wrong with serving in the Archdiocese, 24 that he could do it, and he was asking for 25 consideration to be able to serve there. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 901 1 Q. Do you recall when you received this 2 letter back in 1975 -- 3 A. Right. 4 Q. -- did you then decide to review his file? 5 A. I didn't review his file. I spoke with 6 the person that he mentions here, Monsignor Rieffer, 7 who was one of my two people that I had chosen to 8 assist me with confirmation. He was an older man, 9 and he had served very close to the two previous 10 archbishops. And so I knew that he had been pastor 11 to Father Smith when he was either first ordained or 12 shortly thereafter, and they were friends, and asked 13 his opinion. And he spoke in favor of Father Smith 14 and in favor of us considering him for an assignment 15 once again. We had no reason not to. 16 My concern was really his physical health 17 and what was happening to him because of his physical 18 deterioration. 19 Q. After having read Exhibit 19, would you 20 agree that his depression, as you described it, was 21 over subjects far more extensive than a broken ankle? 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. In 23 reference to Exhibit 19, there's nothing in Exhibit 24 19 that necessarily states why he was feeling 25 depressed or the source of any psychological CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 902 1 disability that Father Smith may have been suffering 2 from. 3 MS. KENNEDY: I join -- 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mischaracterizes the 5 exhibit. 6 MR. TINKLER: I didn't characterize it. I 7 asked him if after having read it, it gave him that 8 impression. 9 THE WITNESS: I had the impression that 10 the man was in fear and very uncertain, and I could 11 not ascribe any cause to why he was suffering this. 12 I was not a physician, nor was I a psychologist. I 13 originally had thought that he was perhaps discontent 14 with us, and he wanted to find another place to 15 serve, and he went. 16 But this letter gave me the impression 17 that he had been disillusioned with his own thoughts 18 and really should come back to the Archdiocese, and 19 perhaps through the counseling of this Monsignor 20 Rieffer, he may have clarified some things for him at 21 that point. 22 I honestly had no idea what was the cause 23 of that depression or insecurity in himself. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And did you make any 25 effort to discover the cause of that depression? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 903 1 A. I did not. I cannot recall the 2 relationship I had, if I met with him. I must have 3 met with him. I cannot recall what I said, but I 4 think that anyone in a position of responsibility 5 would have encouraged him to seek his physician, keep 6 in contact with him, make certain that his blood 7 sugar was kept in proper order and so forth, that 8 type of encouragement. Beyond that, I don't recall 9 anything else. 10 Q. Do you recall whether you had any kind of 11 aftercare program, if you will, in a less formal 12 sense, to deal with a priest that was expressing 13 severe depression and coming back into your diocese? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you talking about 15 1975? 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In 1975? 17 A. I did not prescribe any aftercare 18 program. I think that would be up to a physician to 19 do that, to analyze the whole person, but I did 20 encourage him to keep close contact with his 21 physician, and what I thought it was a major factor 22 in his life, and I consider that a major factor 23 throughout his stay, and that was his diabetic 24 condition. 25 I just felt that he had to do that. He CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 904 1 was not a thin man, and I think that he was probably 2 not keeping a diabetic diet properly. 3 Q. Did you put in place any type of procedure 4 for monitoring Father Smith once he returned to the 5 diocese? 6 A. Outside of his pastor with whom he would 7 be working, no. 8 Q. Did you have even any kind of follow-up 9 meetings with him over the next few years to see if 10 his depression was better or what was going on with 11 him emotionally? 12 A. My visit -- my visits to the parishes each 13 year brought me into contact with the parish that he 14 was serving, and I would have occasion to speak with 15 him, "How is your health? How are you feeling?" And 16 he seemed to be improving. He seemed to have 17 energy. His pastor seemed to speak well of him. So 18 I didn't take any further steps. He seemed to be 19 positive. 20 Q. At any point, let's say after this letter 21 of November of 1975, did you go back and look at 22 Father Smith's file? 23 A. No, sir, I never looked at Father Smith's 24 file. 25 Q. Before or after? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 905 1 A. Before or after. 2 Q. Do you recall back in 1971, when you were 3 on the Personnel Board -- 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. -- that Father Smith applied to be 6 ordained as a priest? 7 A. He was dealing with the Archbishop, not 8 with the Personnel Board. 9 Q. No, I understand that, but do you recall 10 that? 11 A. No, I don't, un-uh, no. 12 Q. Do you have a knowledge of what was 13 required for an individual to be qualified to be 14 ordained? 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: In 1971? 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In 1971? 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 906 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Reports, progress reports of grades and evaluations 20 from seminary each year on the candidate. That comes 21 about now. 22 Something new was included in the '70's, 23 and that was what we call seminarians working part 24 time in a parish near the seminary, helping and one 25 thing or another, sometimes working in hospitals. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 907 1 It's called pastoral work. And they have a 2 supervisor who makes reports on how they react to 3 people and relate to people in those circumstances. 4 And in more modern times, you might say 5 more recent times, those type of evaluations are 6 included in the report from the seminary. That's 7 what's included. 8 Q. Is that report from the seminary made a 9 part of that prospective priest's file? 10 A. In recent years, yes. In '71, when this 11 man was being considered for ordination, that was not 12 a practice in the priesthood. Summers belong to the 13 men. They were not expected to do any type of 14 individual -- work with the parishes, and the 15 seminaries didn't have any program like that. 16 Q. But back in '71, did the seminaries 17 furnish the bishop with letters of recommendation or 18 something similar to that to indicate that the 19 individual had completed his work and was up to speed 20 as far as being ordained? 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you know in 1971, 22 Archbishop. 23 THE WITNESS: I cannot state for a fact 24 that I've seen anything of that nature. Again, 25 that's one of those assumptions. There would have to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 908 1 be some communication between the seminary and the 2 bishop, some form. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Once you became 4 Archbishop, was there written communication between 5 the seminary and the Archbishop regarding each 6 seminarian? 7 A. There would be written communication to 8 this point. They would write to me and say that they 9 were recommending that John Doe, seminarian for the 10 Archdiocese, be promoted to this level toward 11 priesthood. If I favored this, would I kindly send 12 them a note to that effect, and I would send a note. 13 That was the communication so a file had begun for 14 those men in their progress. 15 Q. Would that correspondence that you just 16 described remain a part of their file, at least 17 during your tenure? 18 A. Yes. I don't see any reason why it would 19 not be. It's just regular correspondence. 20 Q. You would agree that in order to be 21 ordained, one has to complete the seminary? 22 A. Of course. Absolutely. Absolutely. 23 Q. Archbishop, with respect to Father Sabine 24 Griego, do you know, is Father Griego still a priest? 25 A. When I left this Archdiocese a year and a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 909 1 half ago, he was certainly a priest, and I have no 2 reason to believe that he is not a priest today. I'm 3 not certain whether he has faculties of the 4 Archdiocese, but I believe he is still a priest 5 within the church, yes. 6 Q. And what can a priest that does not have 7 faculties do? 8 A. He can do anything but -- I shouldn't say 9 do anything -- anything he's able to do other than to 10 serve as a priest. 11 Q. He can celebrate -- 12 A. If he wants to get himself a job and this 13 and that or whatever, he may do that, but he doesn't 14 have faculties to work within the diocese in any 15 capacity. He may celebrate Mass privately. 16 Normally, they do that in their own home or in some 17 small chapel, but he may not publicly administer the 18 sacraments. 19 Q. Does a priest that has had his faculties 20 taken away receive pay? 21 A. I suppose it depends on the circumstances 22 and it depends on the bishop. If a man is ill and 23 can no longer function so he no longer enjoys the 24 faculties because of his illness, he may still be 25 receiving his salary because of his own illness. So CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 910 1 that's a circumstance when he would continue to be 2 salaried. 3 The case of Father Sabine, I just don't 4 know. I would say he probably is receiving nothing 5 from the diocese. Again, that's my speculation, and 6 I can't answer those questions. 7 Q. Do you know at the time that you left the 8 diocese whether he was receiving compensation? 9 A. He had asked formally just around 10 Christmastime for a leave of absence for a few months 11 and to live with his mother in Las Vegas, New Mexico, 12 and asked if he could go for that purpose. And if 13 I'm not mistaken, permission was granted to him for 14 that, and I think that he was granted permission to 15 receive just a salary and no other form of 16 compensation. 17 Q. Now, you've already indicated that you 18 first met Sabine Griego in approximately 1968, '69, 19 '67, that time frame when you were in Roy and he was 20 in Las Vegas; is that correct? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And is it also correct that during the 23 time that you were in Roy, when you would have to 24 commute to the Archdiocese for various meetings, you 25 would stay with Father Griego? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 911 1 A. No, sir, I didn't say that. In fact, I 2 said the opposite; that at that time I did not know 3 him well. He was a chaplain at the State Hospital. 4 I had met him there. I really never stayed overnight 5 there. I visited principally Monsignor Salas. He 6 was my preferred contact. 7 I believe in the last year of my stay in 8 Roy and Mosquero, I knew him better, and I think I 9 had dinner with him and the pastor, Father Burke, at 10 Our Lady of Sorrows. I recall having dinner there on 11 one occasion, yes. 12 Q. Do you recall, that would have been in the 13 late '60's or -- 14 A. That would have been around '71, spring of 15 '71, winter of '70. 16 Q. After you became Archbishop, did you 17 become closer friends with Griego? I know you 18 indicated he wasn't a real close friend -- 19 A. Yes -- 20 Q. -- but did you become closer? 21 A. I became closer. He was a very hospitable 22 person. I appreciated that. His rectory in Las 23 Vegas, he was pastor there by this time, his rectory 24 was larger than that of the Immaculate Conception. 25 He always said, "If you need to have a place to stay CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 912 1 when you're going up to these places in the north, 2 feel free to come here because we have room." And 3 his hospitality was kind, and I would accept that 4 from time to time. 5 Q. Do you recall how many times in, let's 6 say, in the '70's, that you did stay at his rectory? 7 A. I couldn't give you an answer. I probably 8 spent an overnight when I went to his parish for a 9 pastoral visitation because normally it would require 10 Saturday and Sunday visits, and I would spend the 11 night there which I did in every rectory when I had 12 parish visitations. That was a normal affair. You 13 worked with them all day Saturday, spend Saturday 14 night, have dinner with them, Sunday have all of the 15 Masses, meet the people, meet the organizations, and 16 finally say good-bye. 17 Q. So in those instances, that was no 18 different than your visits to other parishes; 19 correct? 20 A. Exactly. Exactly correct. 21 Q. Were there other instances where your 22 visits were different than visits you had to other 23 parishes? 24 A. I may have spent evenings coming or going 25 from visits to the far northern areas and breaking up CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 913 1 the overnight trip that way. Oftentimes, I would 2 leave from Clayton late in the afternoon, travel as 3 far as Las Vegas, and he would accommodate my staying 4 overnight there, but that would be, again, maybe 5 once, maybe twice a year, but not any regular basis. 6 Q. Would that be every year? 7 A. Not necessarily. 8 Q. Would Father Griego ever stay with you in 9 Albuquerque? 10 A. He never stayed with me in Albuquerque 11 until he was assigned to that, and that was in 1992 12 after he returned from Southdown. 13 Q. And that's when he lived with you; is that 14 correct, in your rectory? 15 A. Right. He lived there. And this 16 agreement for living was done with his therapist at 17 the exit interview. They felt it was a very fine 18 agreement, that I would be able to monitor him, and I 19 made him agree in the presence of the therapist that 20 no one would be visiting him there at that home 21 except his family members. They would always be 22 welcome. His mother was around. But I didn't want 23 others coming at all. 24 Q. During your tenure as Archbishop, say 25 during the first five years, did you assign Father CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 914 1 Griego to any special appointments or give him any 2 special jobs within the Archdiocese? 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Vague and 4 ambiguous. "Special" is undefined. 5 THE WITNESS: I think he was elected to -- 6 I know he was elected at some time, I don't recall 7 what years, to the Personnel Board, but that was an 8 election by his own deanery. They send the name to 9 me, and then I simply appoint them, but it's actually 10 an election by his own peers. 11 Later, that would have been in the late 12 '80's, I asked him to serve on the archdiocesan 13 consultors. That's a body of men that work with me 14 for administrative affairs, purchase of properties, 15 buildings -- to approve new buildings and so forth. 16 But he was an experienced pastor and was asked to 17 serve because of that experience. 18 Q. Do you recall giving Father Griego an 19 assignment with respect to the Hacienda de los 20 Muchachos? 21 A. He was dean of the northeastern deanery at 22 the time that I needed to have some information on 23 the Hacienda de los Muchachos. I received a letter 24 that indicated that there were problems there, and I 25 asked Father Griego, as dean in that capacity, to go CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 915 1 there to visit with Father Ed Donelan, to visit with 2 the people who were part of the staff -- I didn't 3 know who they were or how many -- and then to report 4 to me on that. So that was a special assignment, but 5 in his capacity as dean. Again, if there had been 6 another man there as dean, it would have been that 7 other person who would have gone to do that work. 8 Q. So the only reason that he was given that 9 assignment was because he was the dean of that 10 deanery? 11 A. Precisely. 12 MS. KENNEDY: Do you want to change tapes 13 now? 14 MR. TINKLER: Yes, he can change now. 15 (A discussion was held off the record.) 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop Sanchez, when 17 we took our short break, you had indicated that 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 916 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Were you satisfied with 11 Sabine Griego's handling of that assignment? 12 A. Yes. The information that he conferred to 13 me was pertinent to the Hacienda, and I appreciated 14 that. It was the beginning of information. I had to 15 respond to the concerns that were issued in the 16 letter, and I thought that was the best way was to 17 have someone go there personally and talk to those 18 people who were concerned. 19 Q. At that point in time, in 1976, I believe, 20 when that assignment occurred, did you know anything 21 about Sabine Griego's personal life? 22 A. No, sir, I did not. 23 Q. You indicated that he did respond to your 24 -- or he did the task you ordered him to do. Do you 25 know if he responded to you with any kind of written CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 917 1 report or anything like that regarding that 2 investigation? 3 A. He responded to me in a phone 4 conversation. That was the first response. And then 5 subsequent to that, perhaps a month or so later, I 6 don't recall, it was one month, maybe it was a little 7 bit more than that, I had decided that I was going to 8 withdraw Father Ed's permission to serve as the 9 director of the Hacienda. And so I had asked Father 10 to prepare a memo for me to summarize what he had 11 found in his own visit to the Hacienda. 12 Q. You asked Father Griego to do that? 13 A. I asked Father Griego to do that. 14 Q. And did he do that? 15 A. Yes, he did. 16 Q. Do you know where that memo would be kept 17 or where you put it? 18 A. I may have put it into the Hacienda de los 19 Muchachos file. That's where I would assume I would 20 have put it. 21 Q. So there was a file that was actually 22 titled Hacienda de los Muchachos or Farley Boys' 23 Ranch? 24 A. I don't recall exactly that now, but I 25 would think that I had a file of that nature or maybe CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 918 1 under Father Donelan. 2 Q. Do you recall when Father Griego was 3 transferred or reassigned, I guess, from Our Lady of 4 Sorrows parish to Queen of Heaven parish in 5 Albuquerque? 6 A. I don't recall the dates, sir. That 7 information is certainly on file and can be 8 obtained. Again, if you have a letter of the 9 transfer or whatever, it would certainly help to see 10 that. 11 Q. Do you recall at the time that the 12 transfer occurred, did you know Father Esquibel? 13 A. I knew most of my priests in the 14 Archdiocese. I did not know them intimately or as 15 friends, but I knew of them, and I knew the work that 16 they were doing, who they were. 17 Q. And in -- 18 (Exhibit 20 was marked for 19 identification.) 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I hand you what's marked 21 as Exhibit 20. 22 MS. KENNEDY: Richard, can you just read 23 to and from? 24 MR. TINKLER: This is a letter from 25 Archbishop Sanchez to Father Sabine Griego. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 919 1 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Dated August 6. 2 MR. TINKLER: August 6, 1979. 3 THE WITNESS: (The witness referred to 4 document.) 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You've completed your 6 review of Exhibit 20? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Do you recall sending that letter? 9 A. It's my letter. 10 Q. And is this, is it fair to say this is the 11 letter where he was assigned to the Albuquerque 12 parish? 13 A. Yes. He was transferred from pastorship 14 of Our Lady of Sorrows in Albuquerque to pastorship 15 of Queen of Heaven in Albuquerque. 16 Q. Is that something that you would seek the 17 advice of the Personnel Board about, a transfer like 18 that? 19 A. Oh, yes, that was my practice. 20 Q. Was it your practice to do any type of 21 investigation about a priest and his personal life 22 upon transfer to any parish? 23 A. No, sir, because our priests who are 24 serving in those parishes were familiar with them, at 25 least we hope we are, and they are transferred CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 920 1 sometimes every three years. Others are transferred 2 every five or six years. Others may be ten years. 3 But it's not as though something might be in the file 4 that we may not have put there ourselves. He had 5 been serving for five years under my own tenure by 6 that time. So I did not look at his file, as I did 7 not look at the files of others. 8 Q. These files that you're referring to are 9 the personnel files of each priest which were kept -- 10 were they kept in your office? 11 A. They were kept in the files here in the 12 Archbishop's office, yes. 13 Q. Why were they kept in your office? 14 A. These are files that belong to the 15 Archbishop. They are not files for public review. 16 And so all parish files and personnel files and 17 property files, things of that, they're all kept 18 within that one office. 19 Q. And were they kept there also so that you 20 would have access to the files? 21 A. Well, at least my secretary could file 22 something, letters and correspondence, certainly. 23 Q. Is it your testimony that really, you 24 didn't really look at the personnel files of any 25 priests during your tenure? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 921 1 A. I did not go back and look at the history 2 of their files, no, sir. 3 Q. Did you go back and look at their files at 4 all at any time during -- 5 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Asked and 6 answered in this very deposition today. 7 MR. TINKLER: I'm talking about any 8 priest, not these particular priests. 9 THE WITNESS: Sir, the current files that 10 we had in my office were files that were one, two 11 years old, so that we could look at things, when they 12 were assigned, what current requests that they had, 13 responses and so forth. They did not contain 14 everything dating back to their seminary days or to 15 their first assignment as priests, not necessarily 16 that. Especially when it comes to the parishes and 17 purchases of property, they tend to get bulky. And 18 those files are placed then down in our vault so that 19 they're not taking up all the room in the file 20 cabinets. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Are you saying that was 22 your practice with respect to the priest files, that 23 you would not keep the entire priest file in your 24 office? 25 A. Sir, the files of the priests were kept in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 922 1 my office. Some of the priests who had served for 30 2 or 40 years, if there was material that was more than 3 needed to be kept in the one file, that material 4 would be placed in their file but in the archive file 5 so that there was room for the current files to 6 continue. 7 Q. So you did have archive files? 8 A. Well, it was just a continuation of the 9 same file of the individual. 10 Q. Where are those located? 11 A. They're part of the Archdiocese. Those 12 are files that you have looked at there. 13 Q. For instance, the file of Sabine Griego, 14 would that have been, or was that a file that you 15 kept in full in your office? 16 A. Yeah, after five years, I would say it 17 would have been entire there. 18 Q. What about Father Smith? 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 923 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 THE WITNESS: I did not review the entire 9 files of any priest during my tenure as Archbishop. 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I understand that, but 11 you've just indicated that some of the files weren't 12 complete that were in your office. They only had 13 part of the file. 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Now I'm trying to find out which ones were 16 like that. 17 A. Files on programs, files on -- like the 18 Catholic Church Extension Society that they had been 19 dealing with for 25 or 30 years. 20 Q. I'm talking about priest files. 21 A. Priest personnel files, as I indicated, 22 normally were totally intact. If there was any 23 individual who had a lot of things in his file 24 because maybe he had written a dissertation for his 25 doctorate and it was a nice thick dissertation, that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 924 1 would not be kept in that current file because it was 2 taking all the room. Something of that nature could 3 be placed in his file but in another place. 4 Q. Okay. Can you think of any specific 5 instances where that was done with respect to any 6 priest that was an active, practicing priest while 7 you were Archbishop? 8 A. Again, you're asking for speculation 9 because I can't -- 10 Q. No, I'm not. I'm asking for what you 11 know. 12 A. Okay. Then let's say I don't remember. 13 Q. You don't remember any instances like 14 that? 15 A. I cannot -- on oath, I could not say for 16 certain. 17 Q. Can you say on oath whether Sabine 18 Griego's file that was kept in your office was 19 complete? 20 A. It was complete because I cannot recall 21 any reason why he would have had such a bulky file 22 that it would not have been totally there. 23 Q. So you are assuming that it was complete. 24 You really don't remember that file either, do you? 25 A. I never went through his file. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 925 1 Q. Do you know if Father Donelan's file that 2 was kept in your office was complete when it was kept 3 in your office? 4 A. I would have to assume that it was 5 complete. 6 Q. But you don't know? 7 A. But I don't know. 8 Q. Would that be true with respect to every 9 priest? 10 A. Ditto. 11 Q. When Father Griego transferred from Las 12 Vegas to Albuquerque, did you meet with him before 13 that transfer? 14 A. I can't recall whether I did or not. It 15 was not normally a practice to meet with each person 16 before it. The practice was to meet with them upon 17 initial request for them to consider accepting a new 18 position. Once they had agreed to that, then no 19 further contact was had until they were in their 20 parish. 21 Q. And then what would be the form of contact 22 that would occur once they were in the parish? 23 A. Well, sir, it could take a variety of 24 contacts. It might be a visit to the school. It 25 might be the parish feast day. It might be CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 926 1 confirmations. It could be any one of a number of 2 things. 3 Q. Do you recall -- 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. -- with Father Griego what your first 6 contact was once he was in Albuquerque? 7 A. I do not recall the first contact. That's 8 been 15 years ago, and it's a large parish. No, I 9 don't recall what would have been the first contact 10 at the parish. 11 Q. Let me ask you this. Are there rules, 12 whether they be canonical or otherwise, with regard 13 to who can live in the rectory? 14 A. The rectories allow for living according 15 to their size, normally, some being larger, others 16 being smaller, but normally the rectory is the 17 priest's residence. And by "priests," I include the 18 plural, because frequently there are more than one 19 priest assigned to a parish. On other occasions we 20 may have a retired priest in residence with the 21 others. 22 There are occasions when a priest has a 23 relative live with them, frequently a mother or a 24 father. On some occasions they ask permission for 25 another relative to stay with them for three weeks, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 927 1 three months. It may be an aunt, it may be a niece 2 or a nephew, for specific reasons. 3 Q. And is that permissible? 4 A. That is permissible when that type of 5 permission is sought, and if it's not going to impose 6 an imposition on the other priests who are present. 7 Q. Was it ever permissible during your tenure 8 for a young boy to live in the rectory, unrelated, a 9 young boy who was unrelated to the priest? 10 A. Not in general, sir, That was not 11 permissible. 12 Q. Do you ever recall -- strike that. Do you 13 remember when you first visited Sabine Griego in 14 Albuquerque whether you visited his rectory? 15 A. I just don't recall the first visit to his 16 rectory there at all. I don't recall. 17 Q. Do you recall any visits to his rectory? 18 A. Oh, yes, there were many occasions when I 19 had to visit him there and at the rectory besides the 20 church. There are many occasions when he sponsored 21 luncheons there for the priests. We would have what 22 we call Monday gatherings for priests from the 23 Albuquerque area, and we would go from parish to 24 parish, and he would host us there. 25 There were other occasions when we would CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 928 1 have dinners in association with the sacrament of 2 confirmation, which takes place in most parishes that 3 way. They invite you to dinner before the event. 4 There were occasions, as I believe I 5 mentioned this morning, when he would hold a special 6 function for sort of a thank you dinner for 7 catechetical teachers or school teachers of his 8 parish and ask me to come and join them if I could, 9 to honor them. 10 There were occasions when he sponsored 11 simply luncheons and asked to us drop by if we had no 12 place to go, and that was not only to myself but 13 other priests from the staff as well, and frequently 14 priests would go and join him for lunch. 15 Q. On the occasions that you visited his 16 rectory, let's say during the first year that he was 17 in Albuquerque, do you remember any instances where 18 you witnessed a group of young men or young boys 19 having -- or being entertained in the rectory by 20 Father Griego? 21 A. Not a group, sir. I witnessed an 22 individual, and Father introduced him to me. It 23 wasn't necessarily one -- the same individual 24 throughout those years. It would be a different 25 one. But he would introduce him to me, and I would CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 929 1 ask him who he was, a friend of the family, visiting, 2 and that would be about it, meet them at the rectory 3 that way, or he would meet me. 4 Q. Would the individual be a young boy? 5 A. They would be in their 20's, I would say. 6 They would be university students. In fact, I 7 remember one apparently was working on his -- to 8 complete his studies, his medical studies is what it 9 was. I can't recall his name, but I recall that he 10 was trying to complete his medical studies. So I 11 have to assume he was whatever that age would be, 12 close to 30. 13 Q. Do you recall any high school-age boys 14 being introduced to you as residing in the rectory? 15 A. No, sir, I don't recall high school boys 16 at all, unless they were part of the parish. If they 17 were part of the parish youth group who were 18 preparing for confirmation, things like that, then 19 there was youth, you know, there was a lot of youth, 20 but there were no individuals like that about whom 21 you're speaking that would have been teenagers. 22 Q. Did Father Sabine Griego ever inform you 23 that was living with him in the 24 rectory, an altar boy? 25 A. Who? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 930 1 Q. 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Did any of the other priests -- there were 4 other associate pastors there; is that correct? 5 A. Oh, yes, yes. 6 Q. Who were they in 1980, if you know? If 7 you don't -- 8 A. Yeah, I can't recall. 9 Q. Do you recall receiving any complaints or 10 correspondence or any kind of communication from the 11 other priests that lived in that rectory regarding 12 the presence of a young boy in the rectory? 13 A. Not about any specific young boy, no. 14 Q. So do you recall some communications from 15 the other priests regarding young boys? 16 A. No. Their communication to me that I had 17 from them was that -- they called the rectory an open 18 rectory; that the employees, the staff members were 19 free to come and to go in it. 20 In other words, they felt that the privacy 21 for the priests in the rectory really was being 22 minimized because teachers, catechetical teachers, 23 groundskeepers, office workers were free to simply go 24 back into the kitchen at any time and so on and fix 25 things, and they felt that there was a lot of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 931 1 traffic, people were coming and going, and that their 2 own privacy was impinged upon. 3 Q. What did you do as a result of that 4 complaint? 5 A. I spoke with the pastor and told Father 6 Griego that his desire to make everyone feel like a 7 family was admirable, but having others in the 8 rectory, he had to be aware of their right to privacy 9 as well, and he should set up an area where people 10 could be limited. If they're going to have meetings 11 in the rectory and so forth, they could have 12 meetings, but it had to be in one section so that the 13 privacy of the living quarters might be reserved for 14 the priests. 15 Q. Did you ever meet 16 A. I do not recall the name, nor would I know 17 the person if I saw him face-to-face. 18 Q. Do you ever remember meeting through 19 Father Griego any other teenagers at the Queen of 20 Heaven parish? 21 A. Not teenagers, sir, no, sir, hm-um. 22 Q. Do you remember an individual by the name 23 of ? 24 A. No, that doesn't ring a bell either. 25 is a common name, of course, but I can't put a face CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 932 1 on any . 2 Q. Do you know who is? 3 A. ? 4 Q. . It could be . 5 A. I've heard of . I don't know if 6 was his godchild. I recall he introduced 7 me to one who was his godchild who had visited him, 8 but I don't know if was the one, but I do 9 recall the name . 10 Q. Do you recall there being a trailer 11 located next to the rectory? 12 A. No, I don't, sir. I don't know where it 13 would have been located. 14 Q. And it's not something you remember, 15 living in a trailer -- 16 A. No. 17 Q. -- on the rectory property? 18 A. No, I don't, uh-uh, no. 19 Q. How often during, let's say, the first 20 year that Father Griego was at Queen of Heaven would 21 you go to Queen of Heaven? 22 A. I would go, as I said, for confirmations, 23 for those duties that required me to go to the 24 parish; that's when I would have gone to Queen of 25 Heaven. Since we were not what I would call CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 933 1 socializing friends where we would simply go out and 2 go to the movies or whatever or go fishing, I had no 3 other reason to go there. 4 Q. Would the same be true with respect to 5 when Father Griego was in Las Vegas, that you had no 6 reason to go there other than on official business? 7 A. Yes. There was official business. I 8 would say this, and I can't tell you the number of 9 times, I simply can't recall. I enjoy fishing, and 10 I've always enjoyed it, and I hope to God I will 11 always enjoy it. And going up north for fishing, I 12 would be invited to come in and have lunch at his 13 rectory on my way up to Storrie Lake or one of the 14 other lakes, but the same thing held true with 15 Monsignor Salas at the other parish in Las Vegas, and 16 the same thing held true after Father Griego had left 17 and another pastor was there. It was a nice thing 18 for them to do for me, and I appreciated that. 19 Q. Whenever you did visit Father Griego in 20 Las Vegas, did you ever meet -- did he ever introduce 21 you to any other young boys? 22 A. Not boys, but I remember a coach. He was 23 a football coach, I believe, for West Las Vegas, and 24 he used to be at Mass every day, and apparently he 25 and his wife are close friends to Father. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 934 1 I also remember being introduced to one of 2 the policeman, local policeman, he used to come by 3 and would have breakfast, but there were no 4 youngsters, as you speak, with him, teenagers that I 5 ever saw. 6 Q. Do you ever recall meeting with Father an 7 individual by the name of ? 8 A. I don't know if it was . The last 9 name rings a bell, but I don't recall if it was 10 . I couldn't testify to, but the last 11 name sounds familiar. 12 Q. The individual that you're kind of 13 remembering, was it a young man? 14 A. I couldn't give you an age. The only 15 thing that really comes to mind is the name. That 16 rings a bell, but I can't put a face on him. 17 Q. How long did Father Griego stay at Queen 18 of Heaven? 19 A. From his assignment in 1979 till his 20 resignation in 1991. 21 Q. During the '80's, was Father Griego ever 22 made -- he was appointed to the Personnel Board; 23 correct, or elected by his deanery? 24 A. During the '80's? Yes, I believe so, in 25 the late '80's. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 935 1 Q. And when the Personnel Board met in the 2 late '80's, were you always present? 3 A. I tried to be, but I would not always be. 4 Q. Do you recall Father Griego being real 5 active, an active member of the Personnel Board? 6 A. Yes, I do. In fact, I think he was 7 chairman at one time for at least one year. They 8 elected them on a yearly basis, the officers, and I 9 believe he was chairperson of the board. 10 Q. During the '80's, did you become closer to 11 Father Griego? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to the word, 13 definition of the word "closer." Do you mean -- 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) As a friend? 15 A. Closer inasmuch as you have known a person 16 for many more years and you have worked together. He 17 was doing some building at Queen of Heaven, had put 18 up a gymnasium-like structure, hall, for the parish. 19 That required a lot of work with us and with our 20 committee because of financing. 21 He had done a major remodeling of their 22 parish hall, the meeting facility for the children. 23 That required a lot of meetings with our consultors 24 and myself. 25 The school was growing, and it was a major CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 936 1 concern, the financing. That required meetings. He 2 was a member of the Personnel Board; so he would have 3 meetings. So those more frequent contacts bring you 4 closer to an individual, but, once again, he didn't 5 become any personal consultant or personal friend as 6 the others had been. 7 Q. During the '80's, did you and he ever do 8 anything socially together? 9 A. That's a very general question, "anything 10 socially." I think having lunch together, having 11 breakfast together is a social activity. 12 Q. So you did that? 13 A. Yeah, we would have. Sometimes I would 14 want to meet with him about his own parish, and I'd 15 say, how about catching breakfast or lunch at this 16 place, and I'd meet him there when we would have a 17 luncheon or breakfast and discuss what we had to 18 discuss. 19 Q. Can you think of any other occasions when 20 you would meet with him socially other than meeting 21 for lunch and breakfast and talking about the 22 business of the church? 23 MS. KENNEDY: And not have him describe 24 the meetings that he's already had? 25 MR. TINKLER: No, right, in the '80's. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 937 1 THE WITNESS: I don't ever recall going to 2 a movie together. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) How about a football 4 game? Do you remember going to a Dallas football 5 game together, Dallas Cowboys? 6 A. No. I have never seen a professional 7 football game. 8 Q. You've never seen a professional game? 9 A. I've never seen a professional football 10 game. I wish I could. To be honest with you, I'd 11 love it. But, no, I never went to a Dallas football 12 game or any football game with him. I'm not even 13 certain he was interested in football. 14 Q. So other than what you've described, you 15 can't recall any other kind of social encounters? 16 A. No, sir, not right off the top of my head, 17 I can't. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, if you 19 have some specific encounters beyond a Dallas 20 football game, you might point them out to the 21 Archbishop. It's been a long time ago. I don't 22 think he's suggesting he did not have social 23 encounters, just that they're hard to recall at this 24 late date. If you've got some, please try to refresh 25 his recollection if you want him to talk about them. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 938 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall Father 2 Griego seeking leave to serve as a consultant to the 3 Secretary for Hispanic Affairs? 4 A. Oh, yes. The request came to us from the 5 National Conference of Catholic Bishops, their office 6 in Washington, their office for Hispanic Affairs. 7 And the director of that office asked if I would be 8 willing to release Father Griego, I believe for a 9 period of one year -- maybe it was longer, I don't 10 recall that -- to assist them in preparing for what 11 was known as a national gathering of Hispanic church 12 leadership in Washington. It was called the Segundo 13 en Quentro, and it was a major event, bringing 14 together thousands of people, and the staff was 15 asking if I could release him to work with their 16 office in preparation for that major event. 17 And I'm sure I discussed it with the 18 Personnel Board because that wasn't an easy thing to 19 do because Queen of Heaven is a major parish, but the 20 decision was given affirmatively, and so he was 21 allowed to work in Washington with the National 22 Conference of Catholic Bishops for that period of 23 time. 24 Q. Do you recall Father Griego seeking your 25 counsel with respect to the decision as to whether to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 939 1 go with the National Council of Bishops? 2 A. Oh, I'm sure we discussed it. We had to 3 discuss it because we had to discuss the pros and 4 cons about leaving the parish and what was crucial in 5 the parish at that hour and time and how long he'd be 6 gone and whether he should even surrender his parish 7 then to another pastor or what procedure. So we had 8 to discuss that. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 940 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 941 1 2 3 4 Q. Were there any complaints of sexual 5 misconduct on the part of Father Griego during the 6 period '85 to '89? 7 A. None that I can recall at all. 8 Q. When you say there are none that you can 9 recall, does that mean that there may have been some 10 and you simply don't recall them? 11 A. Those are your words. I'm saying I don't 12 recall them because I don't believe any were made. 13 Q. If there had been any written complaints 14 made, they would have been placed in his file; is 15 that correct? 16 A. They would have been. And action, some 17 action would have been taken that I would recall. 18 Q. What if the complaints were oral in 19 nature, not reduced to writing? 20 MS. KENNEDY: What's the question? 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Would there be a 22 notation made in his file? Would any record be made 23 of oral complaints? 24 A. Depending upon the complaint. 25 Q. A complaint regarding sexual misconduct of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 942 1 a priest, that type of a complaint? 2 A. I think that we would have followed up to 3 meet the person because you hate to take just a -- 4 unless I know the person and know their voice; 5 otherwise, you don't know who you're speaking to. 6 (Exhibit 21 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Let me hand you what's 9 marked as Deposition Exhibit 21, which is your 10 letter, To Whom It May Concern. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: September 28, 1991. 12 It's a letter written purportedly by the Archbishop, 13 Exhibit No. 21. 14 MR. KIERST: Excuse me, Dick, what was the 15 date on that? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: September 28, '91. 17 MR. KIERST: Thank you. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Have you reviewed that 19 exhibit? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And do you recall sending that letter? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 Q. Just for the purpose of these questions, 24 I'm going to represent to you that this letter 25 appears in Father Griego's file, and that prior to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 943 1 that entry in the file, there are no complaints of 2 any type lodged against him. And I'm wondering what 3 precipitated Exhibit 21? 4 A. Exhibit 21, perhaps I should -- do you 5 want me to clarify that first or -- 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Okay. Exhibit 21 is a letter written To 8 Whom It May Concern, which allowed Father to show the 9 officials at the Canadian border that he had 10 permission from myself, as his superior, to enter 11 into Canada for the purpose of attending a renewal 12 institute at Southdown that was necessary for that 13 purpose. 14 What precipitated that was a meeting with 15 a father, mother, and daughter at the Catholic 16 Center, oh, approximately one month prior to that 17 time. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's fine. That 19 answers the question, Archbishop. 20 And for further answer, I'd refer you to 21 deposition of the Archbishop taken in January of this 22 year, page 251, 252, 253, 254, and 255, which 23 explains a meeting, as you well know, by this time 24 with the and Archbishop Sanchez's decision to 25 have Father Griego sent to Canada for treatment at CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 944 1 Southdown. 2 Next question. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) When the allegations 4 were made that precipitated this letter, did you 5 confront Sabine Griego about the truthfulness of the 6 allegations? 7 A. I did. 8 Q. And did he admit to the truthfulness of 9 the -- did he say that the allegations were true? 10 A. In whatever fashion he indicated to me, I 11 got that impression, yes. 12 Q. Did Father Griego -- did you then ask 13 Father Griego if there were other incidents? 14 A. No, I did not. 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Asked and 16 answered. Question, 253, of the January 1994 17 deposition: "Did you undertake any action to find 18 out what other victims he may have had at Queen of 19 Heaven or elsewhere?" Answer, "No, I did not." 20 MR. TINKLER: I didn't ask that question. 21 I asked him if he asked Griego. It's not the same 22 question, Dick. And he said that he did, and he did 23 not ask him about other victims. 24 Q. Correct? 25 A. I did not. That is correct, I did not. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 945 1 Q. Why not? 2 A. I was confronting him about a specific 3 allegation that was brought to my attention by these 4 folks, and I wanted action upon that allegation 5 immediately. I had not previously received 6 complaints of this nature before. Again, for that 7 reason, I felt that my action to him was a very 8 reasonable action, to confront him and to then ask 9 him immediately to resign his parish and to prepare 10 to leave. I had to find a place where I was going 11 ask him to take therapy, but that he would then enter 12 into therapy for this. 13 Q. And you didn't think that it was pertinent 14 to try and determine whether or not there were other 15 victims? 16 A. It simply didn't enter my mind at that 17 time. 18 Q. By 1991, you had been to the 1985 Council -- 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. -- of Bishops; correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And you were no longer ignorant about 23 pedophilia, were you? 24 A. No. I was not exactly an expert. Neither 25 were you, I don't believe, in 1991. Maybe you were, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 946 1 but I certainly was not. 2 Q. You had certainly by 1991 run across 3 information that indicated to you that pedophiles do 4 usually have more than one victim, hadn't you? 5 A. I had seen that information, but, sir, I 6 was sending him to a center with professionals where 7 hopefully the professionals would do the job that I, 8 an unprofessional, an untrained therapist, would not 9 be able to do. 10 That is one of the reasons why you send a 11 man to professionals, so that all that is within them 12 and all that they may have been guilty of would in 13 fact be reviewed and acted upon by the 14 professionals. 15 I confronted him with what I had in hand 16 before me, and the response was given, and an action 17 was taken. 18 Q. And what did you think it did for the 19 other victims, if there were any, for you to send 20 Father Griego to Southdown? 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 22 Speculation. As to what was in the mind of other 23 victims, if any? 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No. What do you think 25 you were doing for the victims within your parish to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 947 1 help them by sending Griego to Southdown and not 2 looking for other victims? 3 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. Calls 4 for speculation on the part of this witness. He's 5 already told you that he didn't know that there were 6 other victims; so how can he tell you now what he was 7 thinking then about people he didn't know existed? 8 Calls for speculation. 9 THE WITNESS: In dealing with the 10 they had asked that we would, in fact, as indicated 11 in last January's testimony in detail, we would 12 assist their daughter in therapy, which we did; that 13 we would ask Father to attend a center for therapy, 14 which I knew would entail asking him to resign his 15 position from pastorship, and that he would not be 16 put back into pastorship positions. And so those 17 actions were taken. 18 So I feel that by removing a man from the 19 situation and getting him proper therapy, you reduce 20 the likelihood of any recidivism. 21 Q. Let me ask you this. Did you even 22 entertain the thought that there might be something 23 that could be done for -- that there might be victims 24 out there, and, if so, the church could help them? 25 A. That was not -- I have to say I did not CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 948 1 reflect on that at that time. My concern was the 2 issue before me. 3 Q. Do you read the National Catholic 4 Reporter? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. You don't? 7 A. I don't receive that. 8 Q. Back at the time of the bishops' 9 conference in 1985, did you read any type of 10 literature that came out of the National Catholic 11 Reporter or any other publications regarding that 12 conference? 13 A. I may have read some comments in some of 14 the Catholic newspapers, but I don't recall the 15 reporter. 16 Q. You indicated you don't receive the 17 National Catholic Reporter? 18 A. No, sir, I don't. 19 Q. I personally don't know if that's 20 something someone receives as a Catholic or not. So 21 is there any reason you don't receive it or -- 22 A. Well, it's a large publication, first of 23 all, and there are others that a person can receive. 24 It has a lot of editorializing, and I prefer to 25 receive what we call the NC News Reports, which is CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 949 1 sort of a source of information, what's taking place, 2 the facts, rather than commentaries. 3 Q. I'm not going to mark this, but I'd just 4 ask you to look at it and tell me if you've ever read 5 it before. It's the June 7, 1985, edition of the 6 National Catholic Reporter. 7 MS. KENNEDY: Do you want him to just look 8 at the front of it or read all the way through? 9 MR. TINKLER: Read all the way through it 10 and see if he's ever read it before. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: You're talking about 12 the left-hand column or the entire -- 13 MR. TINKLER: You don't have to read the 14 whole article -- the entire exhibit. Well, it was 15 going to be an exhibit. 16 MS. KENNEDY: Let's read the whole 17 article. 18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you're serious about 19 that, Mr. Tinkler, we better go off the record. It's 20 six, seven, eight pages. 21 MR. TINKLER: Well, I'm asking him, if he 22 needs to read the whole article to answer that 23 question, then that's what he has to do. I'm not 24 going to tell him how to do it. 25 MR. COLLIER: I'd like to have it marked CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 950 1 and made an exhibit if he's going to ask him 2 questions about it. 3 MS. KENNEDY: I agree. 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Fair enough. 5 MR. TINKLER: Okay. 6 (Exhibit 22 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 MR. TINKLER: It's marked as Exhibit 22. 9 THE WITNESS: I read the first column, and 10 I don't recall the article. 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I believe you did 12 indicate, though, that you were aware in 1991, when 13 you received the allegations about Father 14 Griego, that at that stage of the development of 15 science, it was believed that pedophilia, generally 16 the pedophiles had more than one victim? 17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. This 18 witness is not an expert on the state of science of 19 pedophilia, in fact, not an expert on pedophilia at 20 all. If your question is did he know that or not, 21 that's one question. If you're asking him for an 22 assessment of the status of the study of pedophilia 23 in 1991, we object because it's beyond his 24 competence. 25 THE WITNESS: I had begun to read about CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 951 1 pedophilia, and there were indications that 2 pedophiles frequently had more than one victim. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you consider that 4 when you received the complaints about Father 5 Griego? 6 A. No, sir, I did not. I did not consider it 7 to the extent that I would have confronted him about 8 that. As I indicated earlier, it was simply my 9 assumption that a center of therapeutic care would be 10 the place where these type of questions and 11 confrontations and issues would be dealt with in 12 detail and would be brought to my attention. 13 Q. I think you indicated that you 14 participated in the exit interview -- 15 A. I did. 16 Q. -- that Father Griego had from Southdown. 17 Did you learn about other victims during the exit 18 interview? 19 A. No, sir, I did not. 20 Q. Did you ask? 21 A. No, sir, I did not. 22 Q. Did Father Griego tell you about other 23 victims at any point in time? 24 A. No, he did not. 25 Q. Did you ever have conversations about his CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 952 1 problem which led to the allegations with 2 Father Griego? Did you ever have discussions? 3 A. What do you mean "his problem," his 4 personal -- 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. He discussed that at the exit interview, 7 he volunteered that information in the presence of 8 his counselors and therapists, and that was the first 9 time I had heard of his own background. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 953 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 954 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 955 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 956 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 957 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 958 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 959 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 960 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 And the therapists' comments were they 13 felt that he had really looked at himself and what 14 they felt were causes of his own actions, and they 15 felt that this was great progress on his part. 16 My response was, I was grateful that he 17 had a chance to discover much in his past life that 18 has affected him throughout these years, but I felt 19 that even though they were pleased with his progress, 20 I would not place him back in a parish. I felt that 21 our children just had to be protected, and as you 22 mentioned, at this time now we are learning more, and 23 so they agreed. In fact, they felt that they would 24 recommend that his assignment would be a hospital 25 assignment, and as I've already mentioned, that he CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 961 1 would have his residence with myself so that we might 2 monitor his associations. 3 He seemed to be very strong in taking 4 ownership for his own life, which I thought was a 5 great step forward. And I think that that was an 6 assurance that he would, in fact, refrain from any 7 kind of activity of this nature again in the future, 8 having reviewed that and acknowledged all of this. 9 I did not hear from the therapists present 10 any further comment as to other events or any other 11 incidences in his life. They didn't bring up 12 anything at all, certainly not at the exit interview, 13 nor in any subsequent communication. In fact, 14 practically nothing in any communication at all. But 15 they had zeroed their efforts in regard to Father 16 Griego, who was their patient. 17 And so I agreed that I would place him as 18 a hospital chaplain, which we did, at St. Joseph's 19 Hospital. He agreed that he would live with me with 20 no privileges of having others except his relatives 21 with him at my home, and which I have to feel that he 22 followed because I had no other reason to suspect 23 otherwise. And he continued in that position until 24 he asked for leave of absence at the end of that 25 year. Then he went home to his home in Las Vegas, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 962 1 and I have not seen him anymore. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. When Father Griego -- he lived with you 11 from when, approximately? 12 A. March of '92 through December of '92. 13 Q. And during that time, did you and he talk? 14 A. Very little. Very little. His schedule 15 for the hospital simply was not convenient for 16 myself. He would have to get out like at 7:00 in the 17 morning or so to the hospital and then would be back 18 earlier than I would. He would frequently have 19 dinner with his mother, and his mother would come, 20 and they would go together, and then I would stay and 21 wait for them to return. 22 He spent a lot of time in his own room in 23 reading. He did continue follow-up, as requested by 24 the center, with another therapist in this New Mexico 25 area. I don't know the gentleman's name, but we CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 963 1 never really spoke about his -- himself or his 2 condition. Anything we talked about was his work at 3 the hospital or the diocese in general. 4 Q. Did Father Griego during that eight or 5 nine months he lived with you, did he ever just sit 6 down and say, "I want to tell you what all has 7 happened during my tenure as a priest in your 8 diocese"? 9 A. No, sir, he did not. 10 Q. During that same period, March of '92 11 through December of '92? 12 A. I say March. It was April, actually, or 13 even May by the time he got back from Southdown. 14 Q. Okay. Whatever, April or May of '92 15 through December of '92, did you on your own take 16 steps to determine whether there were other victims? 17 A. No, sir, I did not. 18 Q. During that period of time, did you ever 19 personally ask Father Griego if there were other 20 victims? 21 A. I did not. 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. I guess the same reasons I've indicated 24 before. I thought that he had gone through a whole 25 therapeutic program, and no information was shared CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 964 1 with me by his therapists, certainly nothing new 2 other than the cause for him to go there to begin 3 with. And so I had to assume, I guess, in my own 4 mind that he had gone for this one incident that had 5 occurred that he was guilty of, and that was it. 6 Q. Did you make that conclusion yourself that 7 it only happened once and he got caught? 8 A. I guess the conclusion I made was that 9 nothing had come forth from his six months in 10 therapy, and the therapists had not shared anything, 11 and they're the state of the art. I mean, they 12 apparently are on top of things, and they had, it 13 seemed to me, to be a very fine facility, and you 14 have to assume when bills are high that you are 15 getting professional treatment and they're doing the 16 best job possible. 17 Q. During this period, though, after you 18 learned that Father Griego had at least committed one 19 act of sexual misconduct, did you ever even think 20 that you had members in several different parishes 21 that, over the years, could have been, just possibly 22 could have been abused by him? 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It's been 24 asked and answered in January of 1994 in a variety of 25 different ways, not the least of which in a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 965 1 conversation concerning -- deposition concerning 2 Father Griego, the question was asked: "Did it occur 3 to you that someone who abuses one child abuses 4 others? Did you find out that you had a moral duty 5 to the Catholic faithful to inquire of Father Griego 6 whether anything else had happened? Did you feel a 7 moral duty or canonical responsibility on behalf of 8 the Catholic people to ask Father Griego whether he 9 had done it? Did it occur to you, perhaps, Father 10 Griego, like you, did not want to discuss the sexual 11 activities?" 12 This has gone on now for the last 20 13 minutes, and it was at least the subject of a half 14 hour deposition between pages 250 and 262 in January 15 of 1994. It's duplicitous. It's been asked and 16 answered. 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you ever during the 18 period of time that you were living with Father 19 Griego, did you ever even wonder about this? I'm not 20 asking you if you've been asked this question a 21 million times. I'm asking if you ever thought about 22 it? 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. 24 MR. TINKLER: And that hasn't been asked. 25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: For good reason. It's CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 966 1 completely immaterial. 2 MR. TINKLER: No, it's not. 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's speculative 4 whether or not the Archbishop wondered about 5 something. It bears no relationship to any of the 6 issues in this case. He's not either a witness nor a 7 party for things that he may have wondered about or 8 not wondered about. 9 The question is, in the first instance, 10 which you've gone into, is what did he ask, what did 11 he hear, and what did he do. What he wondered about 12 is purely speculative. 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I do not recall 14 ever sitting down or reflecting upon that 15 possibility. I had more than enough on my plate to 16 put my mind to and to be concerned about, and I 17 simply did not take that time to reflect in that 18 manner. I thought that having done my duty in 19 getting him properly treated, I was helping both the 20 children of our parishes, our church, and the man 21 himself. And the family was very grateful, 22 incidentally, the family. The father wrote me 23 a note about that. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You indicated his 25 faculties were removed I assume when he went to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 967 1 Southdown? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When he then came back and went into the 4 hospital, did he receive any of his faculties? 5 A. Yes. He had faculties to minister to the 6 people at the hospital, right. 7 Q. And he received pay during that period as 8 well? 9 A. Oh, yes, the hospital were paying their 10 chaplains. 11 Q. And he was also receiving other benefits 12 from the Archdiocese during that time; isn't that 13 correct? 14 A. I don't recall whether he had benefits 15 from us or whether the total benefit package was from 16 the hospital, but I know that he was treated like any 17 other priest would have been treated. 18 Q. Like any other priest would had been 19 treated who simply retired, correct, or still 20 worked-- 21 A. No, he was not retired. 22 Q. Someone who still worked? 23 A. As far as salary is concerned -- 24 MS. KENNEDY: It's very different when you 25 retire. You're paid differently. You are not paid CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 968 1 by the Archdiocese. It's apples and oranges. 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) As if he was a full-time 3 employee in good standing is how he was treated after 4 this incident; isn't that correct? 5 A. He was paid by the hospital for the 6 services rendered to them on the salary base that we 7 had for priests of the Archdiocese. 8 Q. And to the extent that he had medical 9 insurance or automobile -- 10 A. Right, they paid for medical insurance and 11 his salary, exactly. 12 Q. Did he suffer any penalty at all from the 13 church as a result of this misconduct? 14 A. Well, I think the penalty of resigning 15 from his parish and knowing that he would not ever 16 again be pastor again in the Archdiocese, that is a 17 strong penalty. 18 Q. Back when you learned of the 19 incident, why didn't you call the police or the 20 District Attorney's office? 21 A. First of all, the incident had occurred 22 many years before. And secondly, the parents were 23 very capable of doing whatever they felt was 24 necessary. They had it well under control. He's a 25 very educated man. I believe he had taught at the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 969 1 University of New Mexico, and he asked only three 2 things, and we complied with those three things. He 3 was grateful, wrote a letter of appreciation for 4 that. So that wasn't a concern for myself. 5 Q. You didn't feel you had it on your own -- 6 A. I didn't even think about it. 7 Q. -- a duty to notify the law enforcement 8 officials? 9 A. That was not my concern. I just did not 10 have that in mind. I felt that they would -- if they 11 felt it necessary to press charges, you know, 12 certainly that would have been done, but their 13 questions, what they were asking of us was totally 14 different. 15 (Exhibit 23 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 MS. KENNEDY: Can you identify that? 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) I'm handing you what's 19 marked as Exhibit 23, a letter dated October 1, '92, 20 from yourself to Father Sabine Griego. 21 A. (Witness referred to document.) 22 Q. Do you recall writing that letter? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. In the last paragraph, you indicate that 25 you were aware that this restriction, referring to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 970 1 the restriction of his faculties, "may be difficult 2 for you to accept," referring to him? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Why did you think that it would be 5 difficult for him to accept? 6 A. He had been a pastor for 25 years, and I 7 was now restricting his faculties to a specific 8 ministry of the hospital, and that's like -- well, I 9 don't want to use analogies because all analogies 10 limp. You can imagine situations for yourself if 11 suddenly you were asked to do something much less 12 than what you were accustomed to, that that would be 13 difficult emotionally for him to accept, but he would 14 have to accept it. 15 Q. Had you had discussions with Father Griego 16 prior to this letter regarding removing his 17 faculties? 18 A. Not prior to October 1, no. That letter, 19 that was just my letter to him -- excuse me, no, no. 20 I got my year wrong. I was thinking '91. 21 '92. Yes, the discussion had taken place 22 at Southdown in the presence of his therapists, and 23 we had discussed that at that time and agreed that 24 his ministry would be confined to hospital ministry. 25 So that's where the discussion had taken place in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 971 1 March of that same year. 2 Q. In that discussion regarding the 3 restriction of his faculties, did he express 4 objection to that? 5 A. No, no. He was acceptable to whatever we 6 asked of him. 7 Q. Is this the same type of letter that you 8 wrote to all the priests that had their faculties 9 removed? 10 A. Something similar. The opening paragraph 11 would be similar to the others, but the other last 12 two paragraphs were very specific for him. 13 Q. Very personal for him? 14 A. Very personal for him, yes. 15 Q. Is it fair to say by October of '92, you 16 were very close to Father Griego? 17 A. I don't like that constant closeness, 18 because you use the word "close," it could mean a 19 thousand different things to everyone here. He was a 20 pastor of my archdiocese. He had served under my own 21 administration for 19 years, had been a priest for 22 over 25 years. I respected his priesthood. I felt 23 for him as a man. 24 It does not mean that I did not feel for 25 the children of our Archdiocese who have also CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 972 1 suffered and the families who have also suffered. I 2 try to be a compassionate person, but I wasn't any 3 closer to him in '92 than I would have been a year 4 before. I had the -- I saw what he had gone 5 through. I had been hurt. I had been hurt by all of 6 this. You don't go through this with someone whom 7 you have been dealing with for years without being 8 hurt, but he wasn't any more close to me emotionally 9 than he had been as a priest, as pastor, and now he 10 was going to have to serve in the capacity of 11 chaplain. 12 Q. Was that a typical restriction on 13 faculties that you would direct for a priest that had 14 been accused of pedophilia? 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to 16 "typical." Each case obviously spoke for itself. 17 You've got the records. You can determine whether or 18 not the majority of cases were handled this way or 19 not. 20 THE WITNESS: I think that each case was 21 handled individually that we have dealt with in the 22 past, and I don't believe that what I did here was 23 any more favorable to one man than to others. 24 It was reasonable. It had been made under 25 the guidance and approval of professional therapists, CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 973 1 in their presence, verbally to myself with plenty of 2 time to discuss any other restrictions that they may 3 have suggested be imposed. And on the contrary, 4 their own recommendation that he be given this type 5 of an assignment led me to believe that this would be 6 acceptable to me as well. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Did you discuss your 8 action in this regard with the Personnel Board? 9 A. Yes, this was discussed with the Personnel 10 Board. 11 Q. And did the Personnel Board make any 12 recommendations to you with respect to Father Griego? 13 A. I think they accepted the recommendation 14 of the professionals, which was that he could serve 15 as a hospital chaplain. 16 Q. And the rationale behind that is that 17 there is no harm that he could do at the hospital? 18 A. No. I think the rationale behind that is 19 what most of the literature has said, that they 20 should be removed from parochial situations where 21 there are large gatherings of children or schools or 22 things of this nature and should be more limited to 23 those areas that would be considered less potential 24 areas. 25 Q. Isn't it true, though, that under the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 974 1 canons, you actually had the authority to completely 2 restrict his faculties and remove him from the 3 clergy? 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object. It's a 5 compound question. Restrict faculties and removal 6 from the clergy seem to me to be two different 7 sanctions. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is two different 9 sanctions that they -- 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, did you have the 11 option of either of those sanctions? 12 A. I had three options or four options. I 13 had the option of giving him full faculties and serve 14 as a pastor again. 15 I had the option of restricting that to a 16 specific ministry. It could have been hospital 17 ministry or office work. 18 I had the option of restricting his 19 faculties totally and not letting him do anything at 20 all in the Archdiocese. 21 And that was about it. Those are the 22 options. 23 Q. And what factors did you consider in 24 coming up with the option that you chose? 25 A. That I ultimately decided upon was the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 975 1 fact that his therapists, who I have to trust, being 2 professionals who had dealt with him in this intimate 3 matter for six months, felt strongly about 4 recommending him for hospital ministry; the fact that 5 he was well qualified for hospital ministry. He is a 6 nationally licensed chaplain under the chaplaincy 7 association of the country. The fact that he would 8 be working at a hospital with whom the superiors 9 there, his immediate superiors would know his 10 situation and would be able to monitor that. Those 11 were factors that I took into consideration. 12 Q. So it was your understanding that where he 13 was going to be working -- is St. Joseph's; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That the information regarding his conduct 17 and his psychiatric treatment, etc., was furnished to 18 those individuals as well? 19 A. As to one's superior, and so that she was 20 informed of this, his immediate superior. 21 Q. And who was that? 22 A. Her name is Sister Rafael. She's the 23 chairperson of the department, pastoral care 24 department of St. Joseph's Hospital. 25 Q. And she, to your knowledge, was furnished CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 976 1 with essentially the same information you had 2 regarding Father Griego? 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. This has 4 been asked and answered, page 265, line 6 through 5 14. The Archbishop discusses his conversations with 6 the people at St. Joseph's and the fact that they 7 were aware that Sabine Griego had completed his stay 8 at Southdown. 9 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Go ahead. 10 A. I cannot say that they knew everything 11 that I knew because we were even hesitant here about 12 what confidences we could share about a person's 13 life, but they knew why he had gone to Southdown, and 14 they knew that he had received this type of approval 15 from Southdown for hospital work, and they, in turn, 16 were inviting him to work with them. 17 Q. Did you consider, or was it ever a factor 18 as to whether to take a priest's faculties away in 19 part or in full, the number of instances of 20 misconduct that occurred, was that ever a factor that 21 you utilized? 22 A. I don't think I went by arithmetic. I 23 think it was the individual, their own attitude, 24 where they were at, their own life, and what they had 25 done. I think that all of that was sort of a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 977 1 combination of factors. 2 Q. Was the number of incidents a factor at 3 all? 4 A. It would be one factor, certainly. 5 Q. And would the number of years over which 6 the abuse occurred be a factor? 7 A. Certainly the professionals would have to 8 determine that in finding out what took place during 9 those years. 10 Q. I'm talking about a factor that you would 11 utilize in determining what faculties to allow this 12 priest to have? 13 A. I think that my determination has to come 14 not just from arithmetic or my own personal feelings 15 but what is the situation surrounding him. Does he 16 have the potential to overcome what he has been 17 through. Has it been so ingrained in him that he 18 can't overcome that. That's why you're indicating 19 the number of years or the intensity. That I would 20 have to be instructed by a professional. 21 That's why in all of these instances, they 22 have to receive therapy before I can consider where 23 they're at, and I have the recommendation of the 24 therapist to assist me. 25 Q. With respect to Father Griego, is it fair CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 978 1 to say that you assumed there was only one instance 2 in his life and it only occurred within the last year 3 when you were dictating what his punishment would be? 4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection to the term 5 "punishment." There's never been any evidence that 6 this was punishment, necessarily. 7 MR. TINKLER: "Restriction." 8 MS. KENNEDY: Wait a minute. I'm 9 confused. I thought your question had said there had 10 only been one event, and it just happened in the last 11 year. Did I mishear? 12 MR. TINKLER: That's what I said. 13 MS. KENNEDY: I don't think there's been 14 any evidence that the allegation that the 15 family brought forward was anything recent, anything 16 happening in the last year. 17 MR. TINKLER: Okay. I'll rephrase it. 18 Q. There was only one instance that you knew 19 of, and that was the Prices? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. And you assumed that was all there was; 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. That's the only one that had 24 been brought to my attention. 25 Q. Was that a factor in your decision to only CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 979 1 restrict his faculties from parish work? 2 A. I'm sure that was a factor. 3 Q. And you didn't think it was necessary to 4 really even find out if there were other victims in 5 order to determine what would be the appropriate 6 treatment for Father Griego? 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. That's not 8 the Archbishop's testimony. The Archbishop's 9 testimony is he wasn't informed of other victims by 10 the experts at Southdown whose job it was to 11 determine the nature of the abuse. 12 THE WITNESS: I've already given that 13 answer. 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you've come to a 15 good stopping point, Mr. Tinkler, it's roughly 4:30, 16 if you've come to the end of Griego. 17 MR. TINKLER: I don't know, is my clock 18 fast? 19 MS. KENNEDY: We've got another ten 20 minutes. Let's use it. 21 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) The letter that we just 22 were talking about, Exhibit 22, was actually drafted 23 sometime after Father Griego had started work at the 24 hospital and had been released; isn't that correct? 25 A. I can't recall if it was drafted after or CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 980 1 at the time or how much time after, if, in fact, it 2 was. 3 Q. You said that you believed he got out in 4 April or May of '92; correct? 5 A. Right. Oh, I see what you mean, right, 6 yes, yes. 7 Q. He had already gone to work when you wrote 8 this letter; isn't that correct? 9 A. Yes, he had gone to work, you're right. 10 Q. I said Exhibit 22, and it's 23. 11 A. This one is Exhibit 23. 12 (Exhibit 24 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Let me hand you what's 15 marked as Exhibit 24. 16 MS. KENNEDY: Can you identify it first? 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) It's from Father 18 Griego's file. It's signed by him. And it's 19 Questions to the Finance and Auditing Department of 20 the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, July 20, 1992. 21 A. (Witness referred to document.) 22 Q. Did you review that Exhibit 24? 23 A. Yes, I did, sir. 24 Q. Had you ever seen it before? 25 A. No, I had not. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 981 1 Q. Were you familiar with the events 2 described in the exhibit? 3 A. In general. 4 Q. Do you know what this letter that he wrote 5 was all about, I mean, why it was written? 6 A. Yes. I can only speculate. 7 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. To the 8 extent it's his personal knowledge -- he can't be 9 going into the mind of Sabine Griego. 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) No, I don't mean for you 11 to go into Father Griego's, but do you know the 12 circumstances surrounding the letter? 13 A. It seems to me that when a new pastor was 14 finally selected and assigned to Queen of Heaven 15 parish, that he experienced a great deal of 16 difficulty in the immediate administration. Many of 17 the committees of the parish were objecting to his 18 methods, and he was complaining that there was 19 enormous problems there, and that there was 20 insufficient moneys to solve the problems or pay the 21 debts. And, in a sense, he was indirectly 22 criticizing his predecessor, who was Father Sabine 23 Griego, and his administrative policies. 24 So it seems to me that Father Griego must 25 have heard this from members of the parish and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 982 1 perhaps even from some publications. I don't know 2 whether the new pastor was making things noted to all 3 the parishoners, but, in any event, Father Griego 4 decided then to write this letter. 5 It seems to me this was his response by 6 writing this to the finance committee, outlining what 7 in fact in his mind were the facts so that he would 8 at least protect his own name and the work that he 9 had done at Queen of Heaven and even in his previous 10 assignment at Las Vegas. 11 Q. So here beginning where he says -- here it 12 is in question 4. He had asked the rhetorical 13 question, "Why were the parishioners told that Queen 14 of Heaven was in such financial bind?" Do you know 15 if the parishioners were told that? 16 A. I think that is the heart of his reason 17 for writing the letter. As I mentioned, I believe 18 that his successor, feeling that there were 19 tremendous repairs that needed to be done and things 20 to be brought up to snuff, buildings to be remodeled, 21 etc., had complained that there was a tremendous 22 deterioration in the parish structures there at Queen 23 of Heaven, and that there were insufficient funds 24 even to begin to address the problems, including the 25 school, etc. And Father Griego felt that this was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 983 1 not the facts. And so he put that in there. 2 Q. And do you recall what the parishioners 3 were told as to why Father Griego was leaving? 4 A. I was not a party to his leaving from the 5 parish or what he may have said to them. So I don't 6 know what was actually said to them when he left. 7 Q. Do you know, did your office or you direct 8 that any communication to the parishioners be made as 9 to the reason for his leaving? 10 A. No, sir. 11 MR. TINKLER: Okay, I'll stop. It's 12 4:30. 13 (The deposition concluded at 4:30 p.m.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 984 1 John/Jane Does vs. Roman Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, Inc., et al. 2 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 3 If there are any typographical errors to your deposition, 4 indicate them below. 5 PAGE LINE 6 Change to 7 Change to 8 Change to 9 Change to 10 Any other changes to your deposition are to be listed below with a statement as to the reason for such change. 11 PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON FOR CHANGE 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I, ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing pages of my testimony 20 taken on October 3, 1994, as transcribed, and that the same is a true and correct transcript of the 21 testimony given by me in this deposition except for the changes made. 22 23 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 24 25 Date CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 985 1 IN THE SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 3 Nos. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 CV-93-08930 CV-93-11710 7 CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 JOHN/JANE DOES, 19 Plaintiffs, 20 against 21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., 22 a New Mexico Corporation, et al., 23 Defendants. 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 986 1 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 2 I, DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR No. 63, DO HEREBY 3 CERTIFY that on October 3, 1994, the deposition of 4 Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez was taken before me at 5 the request of, and sealed original thereof retained 6 by: 7 Stephen E. Tinkler Merit Bennett 8 Robert J. Reese Attorneys for Plaintiffs 9 425 Sandoval Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that copies of this 11 certificate have been mailed or delivered to the 12 following counsel and parties not represented by 13 counsel appearing at the taking of the deposition: 14 Karen C. Kennedy 15 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 11648 16 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 17 Arthur O. Beach Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese 18 P.O. Drawer AA Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 19 Peter S. Kierst 20 Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese P.O. Box 35670 21 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87176-5670 22 Robert P. Warburton Attorney for Defendant Archdiocese 23 P.O. Box 271 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-0271 24 Richard A. Winterbottom 25 Attorney for Defendant Archbishop 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 987 1 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 2 Alan K. Konrad Attorney for Defendant Servants 3 of the Paraclete P.O. Box 25687 4 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 5 Travis R. Collier Attorney for Defendant Lovelace Institutes 6 P.O. Box 1888 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 7 Kenneth L. Harrigan 8 Attorney for Defendant Pecos Benedictine Monastery, Sons of the Holy Family 9 P.O. Box 2168 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 10 Richard D. Yeomans 11 Attorney for Greek Orthodox Archdiocese 4308 Carlisle Boulevard, N.E., Suite 207 12 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that examination of this 14 transcript and signature of the witness was 15 required by the witness and all parties present. 16 I FURTHER CERTIFY that the recoverable cost of 17 the original and one copy of the deposition to 18 Stephen E. Tinkler is $893.00. 19 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I did administer the 20 oath to the witness herein prior to the taking of 21 this deposition, that I did thereafter report in 22 stenographic shorthand the questions and answers set 23 forth herein, and the foregoing is a true and 24 accurate transcript of the proceeding had upon the 25 taking of this deposition, to the best of my ability. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 988 1 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither employed by 2 nor related to any of the parties or attorneys in 3 this case, and that I have no interest whatsoever in 4 the final disposition of this case in any court. 5 6 DEBORAH O'BINE, CCR, RPR Certified Court Reporter No. 63 7 License Expires: 12/31/94 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092

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